What Made You A Conservative?

Lord Invictus said:

The problem with deconstruction is that it is bad for the mental and emotional health of the people, and the future of the nation.

Healthy nations have myths and don’t engage in flagellating hatred of themselves and their ancestors.

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Whats funny is that the bastard above us only see's deconstruction from the position that its the weapon of the left to be applied to things they don't like. Deconstruction and critiquing endlessly is a tool. I have advocated that we use it and turn it on the left. See how they like it.

LifeisTiresome said:

I said the left not you personally. And lol, the left are as much about narrative and putting up a front as anything else. So stop pretending your side cares about the truth.

Nothing you have said addresses anything I said. So more bullshit.

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You say you aren't calling me a liar, then you call my post bullshit. which is it?

Lord Invictus said:

The problem with deconstruction is that it is bad for the mental and emotional health of the people, and the future of the nation.

Healthy nations have myths and don’t engage in flagellating hatred of themselves and their ancestors.

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Healthy for who? It sure isn't healthy for the descendants of the victims to have their history denied. If your nation can be destroyed by facing the truth, it probably should be.

LifeisTiresome said:

Whats funny is that the bastard above us only see's deconstruction from the position that its the weapon of the left to be applied to things they don't like. Deconstruction and critiquing endlessly is a tool. I have advocated that we use it and turn it on the left. See how they like it.

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Sorry, am I the bastard?

mesonoxian said:

You say you aren't calling me a liar, then you call my post bullshit. which is it?

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. I said that your points are bullshit aka of no substance or stupid. If I was calling you a liar, I would just say so. Like this:

You lie that your side are some objective people that care about the truth.

mesonoxian said:

Healthy for who? It sure isn't healthy for the descendants of the victims to have their history denied. If your nation can be destroyed by facing the truth, it probably should be.

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The people of the nation. White Americans should not feel they have to blow their own brains out or kiss African American’s feet for slavery or the wars against the native Americans. It is harmful to European children to be taught about how they are so evil because a few centuries ago Europeans engaged in colonialism.

It is a sickness, propounded by malevolent influences to make a people feel guilty about their own past.

LifeisTiresome said:

. I said that your points are bullshit aka of no substance or stupid. If I was calling you a liar, I would just say so. Like this:

You lie that your side are some objective people that care about the truth.

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What if you have it backwards, and it is caring about the actual history of things and how we got to where we are that makes people think leftist answers are correct? Like seeing the systematic destruction of workers rights and the seizure of the commons, the horrible costs of slavery, and the continuity it has with our current system makes you say "hey, this can and should be better"?

Lord Invictus said:

The people of the nation. White Americans should not feel they have to blow their own brains out or kiss African American’s feet for slavery or the wars against the native Americans. It is harmful to European children to be taught about how they are so evil because a few centuries ago Europeans engaged in colonialism.

It is a sickness, propounded by malevolent influences to make a people feel guilty about their own past.

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So black people and Native Americans aren't "the people of the nation" and we should never acknowledge unpleasant truths because it might hurt somebody's feelings. see, this is what only caring about history as a political tool looks like.

And these "malevolent influences", they wouldn't happen to be Jewish, would they?

History is a political arena. Everyone uses it for their interests. And it’s more than hurt feelings or pride-this sort of guilt teaching has had lasting psychological damage in children subjected to it.

mesonoxian said:

What if you have it backwards, and it is caring about the actual history of things and how we got to where we are that makes people think leftist answers are correct? Like seeing the systematic destruction of workers rights and the seizure of the commons, the horrible costs of slavery, and the continuity it has with our current system makes you say "hey, this can and should be better"?

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And you avoid my point and go on about workers rights as if you care about any of that.

And you don't care about history at all, we have seen that. History only matters in how you can use it to guilt and attack people.

Lord Invictus said:

History is a political arena. Everyone uses it for their interests. And it’s more than hurt feelings or pride-this sort of guilt teaching has had lasting psychological damage in children subjected to it.

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MAybe don't tell your children their value is in being members of a "race" or a "nation"? If the way you raise your kids means they can't psychologically handle the truth, you fucked up those kids. And history is a whole lot more than politics. It is a necessary study to understand who we are and where we come from. I'd like the actual answers, not something to make me feel cozy.

LifeisTiresome said:

And you avoid my point and go on about workers rights as if you care about any of that.

And you don't care about history at all, we have seen that. History only matters in how you can use it to guilt and attack people.

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I'm an anarchist, genius. Workers rights are pretty central to my concerns.

And how have you seen that? Who have I guilt tripped or attacked? Your confidence in your ignorance is staggering.

Lord Invictus said:

The problem with deconstruction is that it is bad for the mental and emotional health of the people, and the future of the nation.

Healthy nations have myths and don’t engage in flagellating hatred of themselves and their ancestors.

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Deconstruction, as in pulling something apart to examine the pieces, can be an excellent tool in learning how to make the pieces, and then the whole, work better.

The problem is, that the left, particularly the disciples of Alinsky, have instead turned deconstruction into a tool whereby 'If a thing is not utterly perfect in all ways, discard it.'

And then they try to replace it with their own different thing, the merits and flaws of which you are not allowed to question in the least, regardless of how much death and destruction such things have caused in the past.

The American Democratic Republic with specifically enumerated limits on governmental powers has proven to be a flawed system. If you (generic you, not anyone in particular) compare it to perfection, it'll look hideous. If you compare it to the other systems that have actually existed in the real world? It's bloody amazing.

Any honest analysis of the American system with context will prove that while it has failures, it's done so well, that you definitely want to gradually tweak it towards 'a more perfect union,' rather than try to rebuild the system from the ground up. Because there has been no better system ever implemented, at least in a large nation, and if you want to risk the horrors that come with total societal collapse in order to try to implement your bright idea, you can do that somewhere else, thank you very much.

There are plenty of failed states out there that could use the help. Try Somalia or Syria for starters, and Venezuela is also on the list. If your ideology can take those places from the hot mess they are, to something even approaching the safety, justice, and prosperity of the USA, then maybe we can talk about trying your bright idea here.

mesonoxian said:

I'm an anarchist, genius. Workers rights are pretty central to my concerns.

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Don't care. All leftists make that claim. All they do is serve the corpos or college educated elitists who want to destroy and invade things for others.

Helli, I have seen some anarchists champion MAPs so my opinion on them is abhorrence just as much as the rest of the left. I don't care anymore about what ever nonsense your side calls yourselves anymore.

And how have you seen that? Who have I guilt tripped or attacked? Your confidence in your ignorance is staggering.

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Pretending ignorance now. Lol

I was talking about the left in general, not you. Your arrogance to believe that everything I say is about you.

mesonoxian said:

Sorry, am I the bastard?

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Yes, your posts were above mine and Invictus.

Lord Invictus said:

History is a political arena. Everyone uses it for their interests. And it’s more than hurt feelings or pride-this sort of guilt teaching has had lasting psychological damage in children subjected to it.

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Whats funny is that the guy you are arguing with is saying don't teach kids to have value in race or nation but the education system attacks people even if they have his POV, white people evil, people with white skin are evil, whiteness is evil while looking at the white students.

And whiteness is things like time management and not being late.

LifeisTiresome said:

Yes, your posts were above mine and Invictus.


Whats funny is that the guy you are arguing with is saying don't teach kids to have value in race or nation but the education system attacks people even if they have his POV, white people evil, people with white skin are evil, whiteness is evil while looking at the white students.

And whiteness is things like time management and not being late.

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I haven't said anything like that (about whiteness being time management). Weird that you'd decide to lie when literally anybody can look up previous posts, but you gotta do you.

LifeisTiresome said:

Don't care. All leftists make that claim. All they do is serve the corpos or college educated elitists who want to destroy and invade things for others.

Helli, I have seen some anarchists champion MAPs so my opinion on them is abhorrence just as much as the rest of the left. I don't care anymore about what ever nonsense your side calls yourselves anymore.


Pretending ignorance now. Lol

I was talking about the left in general, not you. Your arrogance to believe that everything I say is about you.

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Yes, anarchists. Well known allies of the corporations.

Sorry, MAPs?

mesonoxian said:

I haven't said anything like that (about whiteness being time management). Weird that you'd decide to lie when literally anybody can look up previous posts, but you gotta do you.

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You are so arrogant. My post was not about you.

Yes, anarchists. Well known allies of the corporations.

Sorry, MAPs?

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Yes, the left serve the corpos. I don't care what your side tell yourselves.

MAPs is politically correct term for pedos.

mesonoxian said:

So black people and Native Americans aren't "the people of the nation" and we should never acknowledge unpleasant truths because it might hurt somebody's feelings. see, this is what only caring about history as a political tool looks like.

And these "malevolent influences", they wouldn't happen to be Jewish, would they?

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So the various African tribes enslaved and killed by other tribes arnt people of thier nation? The whites enslaved by the muslims? The Irish?
I think the point is no race or country in history is clean. We shouldn't be forced to be taught one race or thing is bad because a wrong done many years ago.
We should acknowledge it. We should treat it like it is some holy ground that makes someone immune to ridicule or anything like that. Only in Western nations do you have these talks of talking about and punishing a whole race of people because at one point thier race owned slaves.

Africa? Laughs. Middle East? Laughing and will always laugh. China? Has laughed so long and hard they have no voice.

The western countries are forcing a narrative that it is the white persons fault for slavery and that ONLY quotes are guilty.

Leftists with their angry accusations, sheesh.

I'd actually like to know more about the Appalachians resisting being debt slaves, assuming that really happened.
Odd that a Leftist would champion that, though - they seem to be in love with big government control over everyone.

mesonoxian said:

What if you have it backwards, and it is caring about the actual history of things and how we got to where we are that makes people think leftist answers are correct?

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Someone on the anarchist-socialist-communist side of things arguing that history vindicates his ideology. I mean, your high-water mark was a few months in Spain during the societal chaos of the civil war, setting up a government that was pretty much indistinguishable from communist regimes elsewhere, after a half-century of pointless assassinations and terrorist attacks.

Like seeing the systematic destruction of workers rights and the seizure of the commons

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This is odd, since workers' rights improved during the Industrial Revolution and the rise of capitalism, not were destroyed. Now, there were some abuses earlier on, but this was a matter of the law not yet having rules for the new situations that were springing up and was eventually corrected.

As for the "seizure of the commons", the end of medieval peasant-communism was inevitable as a consequence of the Agricultural Revolution. Privately-owned farms are vastly more efficient than communal ones, as a consequence of the fact that the owners have an actual investment in their property. What's "owned by everyone" in theory is owned by no-one in practice.

As an example, the 3% of farmland in the USSR that was privately-owned provided 25% of its food.

the horrible costs of slavery

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Slavery existed long before modern capitalism and declined as it began to rise into prominence. You should be thanking capitalists for helping to end slavery.

the continuity it has with our current system

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"WoRking FoR an eMploYer iS jUst lIke bEing a sLave on a PlaNtaTion".

Forgive me for being crude, but there's no meaningful continuity with our current system. Not even in the context of prison labour.

Zachowon said:

So the various African tribes enslaved and killed by other tribes arnt people of thier nation? The whites enslaved by the muslims? The Irish?
I think the point is no race or country in history is clean. We shouldn't be forced to be taught one race or thing is bad because a wrong done many years ago.
We should acknowledge it. We should treat it like it is some holy ground that makes someone immune to ridicule or anything like that. Only in Western nations do you have these talks of talking about and punishing a whole race of people because at one point thier race owned slaves.

Africa? Laughs. Middle East? Laughing and will always laugh. China? Has laughed so long and hard they have no voice.

The western countries are forcing a narrative that it is the white persons fault for slavery and that ONLY quotes are guilty.

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Do you think it is good that they don't acknowledge the ongoing harm that results from their actions? I don't. Hell, there is actively slavery going on in the UAE, and concentration camps for Muslims in China. You can acknowledge that other places have problems without using it as an excuse to be awful yourself.

Scottty said:

Leftists with their angry accusations, sheesh.

I'd actually like to know more about the Appalachians resisting being debt slaves, assuming that really happened.
Odd that a Leftist would champion that, though - they seem to be in love with big government control over everyone.

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And I am against there being governments.

Navarro said:

Someone on the anarchist-socialist-communist side of things arguing that history vindicates his ideology. I mean, your high-water mark was a few months in Spain during the societal chaos of the civil war, setting up a government that was pretty much indistinguishable from communist regimes elsewhere, after a half-century of pointless assassinations and terrorist attacks.



This is odd, since workers' rights improved during the Industrial Revolution and the rise of capitalism, not were destroyed. Now, there were some abuses earlier on, but this was a matter of the law not yet having rules for the new situations that were springing up and was eventually corrected.

As for the "seizure of the commons", the end of medieval peasant-communism was inevitable as a consequence of the Agricultural Revolution. Privately-owned farms are vastly more efficient than communal ones, as a consequence of the fact that the owners have an actual investment in their property. What's "owned by everyone" in theory is owned by no-one in practice.

As an example, the 3% of farmland in the USSR that was privately-owned provided 25% of its food.



Slavery existed long before modern capitalism and declined as it began to rise into prominence. You should be thanking capitalists for helping to end slavery.



"WoRking FoR an eMploYer iS jUst lIke bEing a sLave on a PlaNtaTion".

Forgive me for being crude, but there's no meaningful continuity with our current system. Not even in the context of prison labour.

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Actually, capitalism and slavery are roughly coeval.

And prison labor was often used to fill precisely the roles slaves had been used to fill previously. No time for more explanations, I have to go lift my 16 tons.

CurtisLemay said:

Liberals have called me a traitor (I'm Jewish)

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Never listen to that kind of talk. The liberal Jews are the traitors. We had a bunch of Jews who were working with the establishment of their country to the detriment of all other Jews not so long ago, and we called them Judenrat and Kapos.

Oh hey @mesonoxian and I guess Sophia but she isn't in here anymore. Did not expect either of you to post on this place.
Did you want to PM somebody, too?

Anyway, when it comes to valuing history and tradition, I mean stuff like recognizing that the ideas and figures who made us should be respected. All those liberal values you cherish were born from those figures and cultures. That's an instrumental reason because people need those but I'd also argue that just intrinsically those in the past should be looked up to and studied. Not blindly followed but I never said that.

Listen, I've been on SV for 4 years now. You cannot even deny that many posters there are literally cumming all over themselves in their haste to insult "Western" traditions. They will fervently deny the West is even a thing (and it is a nebulous concept at best) but then go on to specifically attack all those institutions and figures associated with it. Because they are literal pardoeis of themselves at this point, a mirror image of Ben Shapiro. Shapiro will talk about how the West did everything great and then many Leftists will say "actually Ancient Greece was nothing but rapist slaver murderers!" There's literally a poster in the "Controversial Historical Opinions thread" who just comes in to say one line shitposts like "and Rome sucked." In fact, such giant moralizing generalizations makes up a substantial bulk of that thread. And this isn't even getting into all the calls to not read certain philosophers because they were "bad people" or denying the value of their contributions to our culture. "Plato didn't matter, he only mattered because a lot of people later on decided he mattered."

I think that's one thing that pisses me off most. Who cares that it was "decided" that they mattered? The fact is that it happened. We don't live in some alternate universe where we "decided" to forget all about Ancient Greece and Rome. We live in this world where every day papers and books and random people are invoking these figures and ideas and cultures. They suffuse every aspect of our lives. So, they are of immeasurable importance to us and should be respected for at least that reason.

As for the initial argument that some parts of history are neglected, that is absolutely true. But huge inroads in that area have been made for decades now and continue to be made. Studying is not a zero sum game. You don't have to tear down some history to get others. If you want to study the history of certain oppressed groups or struggles "not in the mainstream" there are very likely to be books on that very topic.