Agreed. Maybe something like Napoleonic Poland?
But without both Poznan and Danzig!
Agreed. Maybe something like Napoleonic Poland?
Petar I was fairly sane (unlike his sons) but the problem was that the his powers were rather limited, the people who brought him to throne retained the reins of power, so there was struggle for power between military leadership and Pašič (with Pašić coming out worse by 1914), with king being more or less an onlooker. King only gained political strength after Serbia was lost and Serbian army became 100% reliant on allied help, which hinged on him and Pašić, giving the two enough political power to finally execute Apis and his circle of imbeciles.but Serb imperialists became way too strong under the Karađorđević dynasty (including Petar I. and Aleksandar I., so you don't get anybody sane on Serbian throne until regency of Pavle Karađorđević
Petar I was fairly sane (unlike his sons) but the problem was that the his powers were rather limited, the people who brought him to throne retained the reins of power, so there was struggle for power between military leadership and Pašič (with Pašić coming out worse by 1914), with king being more or less an onlooker. King only gained political strength after Serbia was lost and Serbian army became 100% reliant on allied help, which hinged on him and Pašić, giving the two enough political power to finally execute Apis and his circle of imbeciles.
OK, thanks.
He didn't really give up on it, he never supported it. It had been looked over by his staff as an option, but rejected it since it would simply make the existing dualist system even more grid-locked as yet another interest group would block funding for projects to get their way in political disputes. Plus Hungary would object as it would water down their power and screw up their own internal political balance by removing allied ethnic groups (Croats) from the Hungarian Parliament.@sillygoose argued elsewhere on this forum that FF gave up on trialism/the United States of Greater Austria plan and instead wanted to keep A-H's dualist federal structure intact but simply to implement universal suffrage in Hungary.
He didn't really give up on it, he never supported it. It had been looked over by his staff as an option, but rejected it since it would simply make the existing dualist system even more grid-locked as yet another interest group would block funding for projects to get their way in political disputes. Plus Hungary would object as it would water down their power and screw up their own internal political balance by removing allied ethnic groups (Croats) from the Hungarian Parliament.
Translation: Everyone gets dragged into World War IMore like: there is a good chance they still get whacked, but war happens regardless of whether he survives or not.
Several responses in another thread
There is a proposal by Prince Sixtus, Duke of Parma, brother-in-law to the Emperor of Austria and Belgian soldier, to broker a separate peace
, and stipulated that they would give the lands only to Italy, and not to Serbia and Romania, because they would not take anything, only to return to the pre-war borders.
The Germans would be furious, but they could not conquer Austria because it was mountainous
The Bulgarians and the Ottomans would sign a separate peace because German support was completely cut off
(Bulgaria will keep the borders before the war because Greece is neutral, but the Ottomans will lose their Arab lands and open the straits to the Russians, but the chances of Turkey remaining a monarchy after the war are much greater without the Turkish National War and the Greco-Turkish War)
Russia, if this happens, will benefit greatly and may remain in the war, and this means a successful Kersinsky offensive, by which the Russian Provisional Government will survive, and not the October Revolution.
Germany was badly damaged, their lines collapsed without the support of their allies, and the British and Russians broke free from their fronts and directed their forces towards the Western Front.
Reforms will happen more easily because the war is over, the economy is improving, no one likes the Hungarians, and if they rebel they will fail
Poland would become a constitutional monarchy with Archduke Karl Stefan as King Charles I
(He's Polish, the Poles love him, he speaks Polish)
More kingdoms will remain or be established
As the Kingdom of Lithuania under the Duke of Urach and the Baltic Duchy will remain under the Duke of Mecklenburg
Together with the Kingdom of Montenegro and the Ottoman Empire (reduced to the borders of present-day Turkey)
There will be the Kingdom of Ukraine led by Vasily von Habsburg (Archduke Wilhelm, son of Karl Stefan)
We might see a Carlist Kingdom of Spain (Franco will court Austria by appointing the Duke of Parma as King of Spain)
A wish list I mostly approve offSeveral responses in another thread
A wish list I mostly approve off
But what "Franco"? This is 1917 we are talking about ...
Would this butterfly Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini?Several responses in another thread
There is a proposal by Prince Sixtus, Duke of Parma, brother-in-law to the Emperor of Austria and Belgian soldier, to broker a separate peace
, and stipulated that they would give the lands only to Italy, and not to Serbia and Romania, because they would not take anything, only to return to the pre-war borders.
The Germans would be furious, but they could not conquer Austria because it was mountainous
The Bulgarians and the Ottomans would sign a separate peace because German support was completely cut off
(Bulgaria will keep the borders before the war because Greece is neutral, but the Ottomans will lose their Arab lands and open the straits to the Russians, but the chances of Turkey remaining a monarchy after the war are much greater without the Turkish National War and the Greco-Turkish War)
Russia, if this happens, will benefit greatly and may remain in the war, and this means a successful Kersinsky offensive, by which the Russian Provisional Government will survive, and not the October Revolution.
Germany was badly damaged, their lines collapsed without the support of their allies, and the British and Russians broke free from their fronts and directed their forces towards the Western Front.
Reforms will happen more easily because the war is over, the economy is improving, no one likes the Hungarians, and if they rebel they will fail
Poland would become a constitutional monarchy with Archduke Karl Stefan as King Charles I
(He's Polish, the Poles love him, he speaks Polish)
More kingdoms will remain or be established
As the Kingdom of Lithuania under the Duke of Urach and the Baltic Duchy will remain under the Duke of Mecklenburg
Together with the Kingdom of Montenegro and the Ottoman Empire (reduced to the borders of present-day Turkey)
There will be the Kingdom of Ukraine led by Vasily von Habsburg (Archduke Wilhelm, son of Karl Stefan)
We might see a Carlist Kingdom of Spain (Franco will court Austria by appointing the Duke of Parma as King of Spain)
here is a proposal by Prince Sixtus, Duke of Parma, brother-in-law to the Emperor of Austria and Belgian soldier, to broker a separate peace
, and stipulated that they would give the lands only to Italy, and not to Serbia and Romania, because they would not take anything, only to return to the pre-war borders.
The Germans would be furious, but they could not conquer Austria because it was mountainous
The Bulgarians and the Ottomans would sign a separate peace because German support was completely cut off
(Bulgaria will keep the borders before the war because Greece is neutral, but the Ottomans will lose their Arab lands and open the straits to the Russians, but the chances of Turkey remaining a monarchy after the war are much greater without the Turkish National War and the Greco-Turkish War)
Russia, if this happens, will benefit greatly and may remain in the war, and this means a successful Kersinsky offensive, by which the Russian Provisional Government will survive, and not the October Revolution.
Germany was badly damaged, their lines collapsed without the support of their allies, and the British and Russians broke free from their fronts and directed their forces towards the Western Front.
Reforms will happen more easily because the war is over, the economy is improving, no one likes the Hungarians, and if they rebel they will fail
These points are all plausible enough, and hint at a better world.the Kingdom of Montenegro and the Ottoman Empire (reduced to the borders of present-day Turkey)
This seems more unlikely, since Russia would still claim Poland, and Russia would be on the winning side. Austria installing their own monarch in Poland would be an unacceptable move. It's plausible that there might be an independent Poland, and not impossible that a Habsburg might get the throne (presumably in exchange for Austria giving up Galicia-Lodomeria)... but I wouldn't treat it as a given in this scenario.Poland would become a constitutional monarchy with Archduke Karl Stefan as King Charles I
(He's Polish, the Poles love him, he speaks Polish)
Not as independent states, certainly! Russia will hold these regions.the Kingdom of Lithuania under the Duke of Urach and the Baltic Duchy will remain under the Duke of Mecklenburg
Ukraine will remain part of Russia.There will be the Kingdom of Ukraine led by Vasily von Habsburg (Archduke Wilhelm, son of Karl Stefan)
It's not impossible, but with a POD this early, it's jus a guess. It's in no way certain that Franco even becomes a prominent figure in this ATL.We might see a Carlist Kingdom of Spain (Franco will court Austria by appointing the Duke of Parma as King of Spain)
If the Sixtus proposal goes through in 1917, the October Revolution is presumably averted, and Russia is "merely" transformed into a constitutional monarchy, instead. Russia's allies will push for Nicholas II to be removed, but will use the same pressure to avert more radical plans from going through.Would this butterfly Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini?
Basically Nicholas II and his family still get grisly killed regardless?These points are all plausible enough, and hint at a better world.
This seems more unlikely, since Russia would still claim Poland, and Russia would be on the winning side. Austria installing their own monarch in Poland would be an unacceptable move. It's plausible that there might be an independent Poland, and not impossible that a Habsburg might get the throne (presumably in exchange for Austria giving up Galicia-Lodomeria)... but I wouldn't treat it as a given in this scenario.
Not as independent states, certainly! Russia will hold these regions.
Ukraine will remain part of Russia.
It's not impossible, but with a POD this early, it's jus a guess. It's in no way certain that Franco even becomes a prominent figure in this ATL.
If the Sixtus proposal goes through in 1917, the October Revolution is presumably averted, and Russia is "merely" transformed into a constitutional monarchy, instead. Russia's allies will push for Nicholas II to be removed, but will use the same pressure to avert more radical plans from going through.
If Italy gets more of a "win" out of the war, Mussolini is probably averted, too.
Germany is extra screwed, though. So I really doubt things will go well, there. However... without the USSR as the boogeyman, there's a decent chance that Germany goes communist instead. Still-- there's a good chance that we see a very unpleasant situation in Germany. The war is over sooner, but they feel more betrayed, and the burden of reparations is exclusively shoved onto Germany, here.
No, I think Nicholas II gets deposed, he and his closest family probably carted off to exile in France or the UK, and some relative gets installed on the throne as a constitutional monarch with very limited powers.Basically Nicholas II and his family still get grisly killed regardless?
which was the original plan, just by the time February happened, things had radicalized way way too much for anything less than a Depostion of the monarchy and eventual trial of Nicky to be considered legit.No, I think Nicholas II gets deposed, he and his closest family probably carted off to exile in France or the UK, and some relative gets installed on the throne as a constitutional monarch with very limited powers.
This is not happening, except for maybe Ukraine. The Polish Nationlalists could live with a Habsburg monarch if they had to, but well they don’t, and no way in hell is Germany going to Give there erstwhile ally a foot in the door by appointing Charles King. Same with Lithuania (albeit more tensions because of the Ethnic Germans already there). Ukraine I could see it, but only as a way to run to Austria to beg their protection against big bad Russia.Poland would become a constitutional monarchy with Archduke Karl Stefan as King Charles I
(He's Polish, the Poles love him, he speaks Polish)
More kingdoms will remain or be established
As the Kingdom of Lithuania under the Duke of Urach and the Baltic Duchy will remain under the Duke of Mecklenburg
Together with the Kingdom of Montenegro and the Ottoman Empire (reduced to the borders of present-day Turkey)
There will be the Kingdom of Ukraine led by Vasily von Habsburg (Archduke Wilhelm, son of Karl Stefan)
which was the original plan, just by the time February happened, things had radicalized way way too much for anything less than a Depostion of the monarchy and eventual trial of Nicky to be considered legit.
This is not happening, except for maybe Ukraine. The Polish Nationlalists could live with a Habsburg monarch if they had to, but well they don’t, and no way in hell is Germany going to Give there erstwhile ally a foot in the door by appointing Charles King. Same with Lithuania (albeit more tensions because of the Ethnic Germans already there). Ukraine I could see it, but only as a way to run to Austria to beg their protection against big bad Russia.
These points are all plausible enough, and hint at a better world.
This seems more unlikely, since Russia would still claim Poland, and Russia would be on the winning side. Austria installing their own monarch in Poland would be an unacceptable move. It's plausible that there might be an independent Poland, and not impossible that a Habsburg might get the throne (presumably in exchange for Austria giving up Galicia-Lodomeria)... but I wouldn't treat it as a given in this scenario.
Not as independent states, certainly! Russia will hold these regions.
Ukraine will remain part of Russia.
It's not impossible, but with a POD this early, it's jus a guess. It's in no way certain that Franco even becomes a prominent figure in this ATL.
If the Sixtus proposal goes through in 1917, the October Revolution is presumably averted, and Russia is "merely" transformed into a constitutional monarchy, instead. Russia's allies will push for Nicholas II to be removed, but will use the same pressure to avert more radical plans from going through.
If Italy gets more of a "win" out of the war, Mussolini is probably averted, too.
Germany is extra screwed, though. So I really doubt things will go well, there. However... without the USSR as the boogeyman, there's a decent chance that Germany goes communist instead. Still-- there's a good chance that we see a very unpleasant situation in Germany. The war is over sooner, but they feel more betrayed, and the burden of reparations is exclusively shoved onto Germany, here.
The Russian provisional government abandoned Poland and declared its independenceThese points are all plausible enough, and hint at a better world.
This seems more unlikely, since Russia would still claim Poland, and Russia would be on the winning side. Austria installing their own monarch in Poland would be an unacceptable move. It's plausible that there might be an independent Poland, and not impossible that a Habsburg might get the throne (presumably in exchange for Austria giving up Galicia-Lodomeria)... but I wouldn't treat it as a given in this scenario.
Not as independent states, certainly! Russia will hold these regions.
Ukraine will remain part of Russia.
It's not impossible, but with a POD this early, it's jus a guess. It's in no way certain that Franco even becomes a prominent figure in this ATL.
If the Sixtus proposal goes through in 1917, the October Revolution is presumably averted, and Russia is "merely" transformed into a constitutional monarchy, instead. Russia's allies will push for Nicholas II to be removed, but will use the same pressure to avert more radical plans from going through.
If Italy gets more of a "win" out of the war, Mussolini is probably averted, too.
Germany is extra screwed, though. So I really doubt things will go well, there. However... without the USSR as the boogeyman, there's a decent chance that Germany goes communist instead. Still-- there's a good chance that we see a very unpleasant situation in Germany. The war is over sooner, but they feel more betrayed, and the burden of reparations is exclusively shoved onto Germany, here.
The Russian provisional government abandoned Poland and declared its independence
I agree that Lithuania and the Baltic countries will remain Russian, because Brest-Litovsk will not happen
The survival of the Ottoman Empire meant recognition of the Armenian Genocide (not the expulsion of the Greeks).
No Ataturk and the survival of the Qajar family in Iran, no Pahlavi coup means no 1979 revolution, along with the fading of coups in the Middle East
It will not mean any national division, because Greece is neutral
Ending the war a year early means the US is neutral, so the Democrats win in 1921