How capable would NATO be of countering a conventional assault on multiple fronts by its enemies against both them and other parties?

[ATP]

The thread prompt posits "a conventional ground invasion betting that Western Europe and the U.S. won't honor NATO defense agreements and will wimp out on the issue. (Don't argue this)"

The way I read that is: if you participate in the thread you are expected to assume NATO does fight instead of just capitulating for political, not military, reasons. Even if you don't believe that would be the case, assume it for the purpose of discussing the thread's scenario, or get out.

Logical answer.So yes,if USA would fight,NATO would win.But - still do not rely too much on our army.We are still weak,still do not have reserves,and still do not produce enough ammo.
But - we would still fight better then germans and brits combined !

Where do you think all the new tanks are going? There's a reason why they are more numerous than the old tanks...
Also Rosomak is still in production.

And how much do we get till war start? maybe for 2-3 tank battalions.Rosomak production - they would replace BWP 1.

We need those too for such a conflict.

Yes,as armored trucks BWP 1 is great.You simply could not count them as IFV anymore.

Even Ukrainians are getting better, why should we get worse with having NATO army.
If they attack, we need to go full blitzkrieg on them, instead of emulating Ukraine and getting into trench warfare with masses of infantry and cheap artillery.

Full Blitzkrieg with what? 3 polish divisions,and one american ?

Even in artillery its part of the mix.

small part of the mix.For rest you need normal powder.

Such data either is classified or should be.

Sigh.Did you forget,who is ruling now? Putin old friend Tusk with even older leftist friends.Soviets knew everything what they knew.There is no point in trying any secrets till they stil rule.
Unless you want emulate Sanacja - which,before WW2,take german newspapers which showed where polish bunkers on german borders are - so poles would not knew,that germans arleady knew everything.

We aren't buying so much Himars and Chunmo that we will have something like 20 TIMES as much modern rocket artillery as Ukraine has to be so reliant on tube artillery.

Great.Are we capable of making missilies for our Himars? if not,we could use them as natives on New Gwinea in some american comedy used F16 - to block roads in forest from enemy warriors.

 

[Marduk]

Full Blitzkrieg with what? 3 polish divisions,and one american ?

Yes. Also NATO. There's 32 countries in NATO now. If only half of them could just send 1 division against Russians because others are too small or too leftist, that's still 16 divisions coming from 3 directions.

Great.Are we capable of making missilies for our Himars? if not,we could use them as natives on New Gwinea in some american comedy used F16 - to block roads in forest from enemy warriors.

Of course we buy missiles for them too. Same as airplanes and many parts for tanks. Only superpowers like USA and China can afford to make absolutely everything domestically. Even Russia can't.

 

[ATP]

Yes. Also NATO. There's 32 countries in NATO now. If only half of them could just send 1 division against Russians because others are too small or too leftist, that's still 16 divisions coming from 3 directions.

Really? England,germany,France - each could gather one division each.Smaller countries - not even that.
And soviets would send 80.000 fresh cannonfodder to die each month.

They could afford even 1:10 KIA ratio to win.10 of them on one our,of course.

Of course we buy missiles for them too. Same as airplanes and many parts for tanks. Only superpowers like USA and China can afford to make absolutely everything domestically. Even Russia can't.

Then,for how long we could use them to fight? week? month?
Modern weapons do not matter,if you do not have both ammo and trained crews for them,becouse if you send dudes like me to operate it,we would fail.

 

[Marduk]

Really? England,germany,France - each could gather one division each.Smaller countries - not even that.
And soviets would send 80.000 fresh cannonfodder to die each month.

They could afford even 1:10 KIA ratio to win.10 of them on one our,of course.

Add Spain, Italy, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Romania, Hungary, Turkey, Greece, that's 13 total. Some smaller countries may send a brigade each to replace 2-3 that flake due to politics. Add our 5. We're talking 16-20 divisions, with other divisions of the major powers acting as second wave. Something like 3-5x air superiority advantage over Russia.
Who cares about the cannon fodder, do you have any idea how much cannon fodder Saddam had in Desert Storm and how much good that did for him?

Then,for how long we could use them to fight? week? month?

We should have spares for few months of fighting, once that runs out wartime production or imports should be available, if the war is not effectively won by then that is.

Modern weapons do not matter,if you do not have both ammo and trained crews for them,becouse if you send dudes like me to operate it,we would fail.

History proves that in modern war there are certain advantages to get at least some weapons from a far away safe place that cannot be targeted by enemy strategic weapons as long as you can assure the logistics. Communist Vietnam would have had no chance if it had to fight only with domestic weapons and ammo. Same for South Vietnam, North Korea, South Korea, Israel, Ukraine, and many others. That goes especially for complex weapon factories that cannot be quickly built up or dispersed like aircraft or electronics. You can't just hide that factory in some garage or empty warehouse. Those are huge, obvious enterprises that the public knows about, are very hard to move, and even Russians can aim mass missile strikes at. Don't expect them to do much production during a war like that.
Best you can do is to pack up the most expensive machines and move them somewhere very far away out of range of missiles until the war ends.

 

[ATP]

Add Spain, Italy, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Romania, Hungary, Turkey, Greece, that's 13 total. Some smaller countries may send a brigade each to replace 2-3 that flake due to politics. Add our 5. We're talking 16-20 divisions, with other divisions of the major powers acting as second wave. Something like 3-5x air superiority advantage over Russia.
Who cares about the cannon fodder, do you have any idea how much cannon fodder Saddam had in Desert Storm and how much good that did for him?

We have 3 divisions with partially obsolate weapons,rest count as reserves.Add 3 divisions from germany,France and England,let say that another 3 from rest of Europe,,and maybe 2 american.

We could have 11 divisions at best.We would be lucky to hold front.
Air superiority - worked against other countries,but we still need to check how well it would work against soviets.
There is very good cold war joke about it - soviet meet in captured Paris,and one ask - dudes,who win air battle?

Cannon fodder - soviets,except them,have modern weapons,AA,and good units.

We should have spares for few months of fighting, once that runs out wartime production or imports should be available, if the war is not effectively won by then that is.

What if USA again not finish soviets,when they should do so ?

History proves that in modern war there are certain advantages to get at least some weapons from a far away safe place that cannot be targeted by enemy strategic weapons as long as you can assure the logistics. Communist Vietnam would have had no chance if it had to fight only with domestic weapons and ammo. Same for South Vietnam, North Korea, South Korea, Israel, Ukraine, and many others. That goes especially for complex weapon factories that cannot be quickly built up or dispersed like aircraft or electronics. You can't just hide that factory in some garage or empty warehouse. Those are huge, obvious enterprises that the public knows about, are very hard to move, and even Russians can aim mass missile strikes at. Don't expect them to do much production during a war like that.
Best you can do is to pack up the most expensive machines and move them somewhere very far away out of range of missiles until the war ends.

Then,we are doomed,becouse USA from the start do not want to defeat soviets,only made them change sides in coming China-USA war.
And quess what they would gave Moscov for that.It is really cute,how they always try to pay with polish money for soviet help.....

 

[Marduk]

We have 3 divisions with partially obsolate weapons,rest count as reserves.Add 3 divisions from germany,France and England,let say that another 3 from rest of Europe,,and maybe 2 american.

No more obsolete than the other side, so they aren't obsolete, and don't throw doomer math at me.

We could have 11 divisions at best.We would be lucky to hold front.
Air superiority - worked against other countries,but we still need to check how well it would work against soviets.

Ukraine still has an air force after over 2 years of war. Air force made of Soviet planes with few modernizations. We don't need to check to know they will suck at shooting down planes from this century when they still didn't shoot down all the ancient Su-24's and Su-27's.

There is very good cold war joke about it - soviet meet in captured Paris,and one ask - dudes,who win air battle?

Now they can't even take the 2 provinces of Ukraine they want to start with in over 2 years.

Cannon fodder - soviets,except them,have modern weapons,AA,and good units.

At least seemed like it.

What if USA again not finish soviets,when they should do so ?

Then,we are doomed,becouse USA from the start do not want to defeat soviets,only made them change sides in coming China-USA war.

But they already chosen the side of China regardless of what USA would wish, and being defeated shows they are worthless against China even if they didn't.

And quess what they would gave Moscov for that.It is really cute,how they always try to pay with polish money for soviet help.....

doomdoomdoom.jpg dumb conspiracies.

 

[ATP]

No more obsolete than the other side, so they aren't obsolete, and don't throw doomer math at me.

Soviets use T.72,but not BWP 1.

Ukraine still has an air force after over 2 years of war. Air force made of Soviet planes with few modernizations. We don't need to check to know they will suck at shooting down planes from this century when they still didn't shoot down all the ancient Su-24's and Su-27's.

And that air force could do notching to stop soviet assault.

Now they can't even take the 2 provinces of Ukraine they want to start with in over 2 years.

Becouse there is enough ukrainians fo fight them.When we do not have enough soldiers to stop them.

At least seemed like it.

Their paras are,or at least were,good.

But they already chosen the side of China regardless of what USA would wish, and being defeated shows they are worthless against China even if they didn't.

Putin choosed,when somebody finally kill him,they would change sides.Becouse in soviet best interest is fight China - especially,if they get Poland for that.
And Demorats would gave us,like FDR gave for fighting germans and later Japan.

doomdoomdoom.jpg dumb conspiracies.

They did it after WW2.Demorats,like war,never change.

 

[Marduk]

Soviets use T.72,but not BWP 1.

Yet again you show how little you know.

Attack On Europe: Documenting Russian Equipment Losses During The Russian Invasion Of Ukraine

www.oryxspioenkop.com

Almost 2000 lost is a lot of very intensive "not using".

MSN

And that air force could do notching to stop soviet assault.

LOL all those HARM, Storm Shadow and JDAM strikes doing completely nothing i'm sure.

Becouse there is enough ukrainians fo fight them.When we do not have enough soldiers to stop them.

We're not China, we don't fight by human waves, look at the capabilities, not numbers.

Their paras are,or at least were,good.

The "were" suggests not good enough.

Putin choosed,when somebody finally kill him,they would change sides.Becouse in soviet best interest is fight China - especially,if they get Poland for that.
And Demorats would gave us,like FDR gave for fighting germans and later Japan.

They did it after WW2.Demorats,like war,never change.

Implying Putin would tolerate people who want to change sides being right behind him in hierarchy.

 

[ATP]

Yet again you show how little you know.

Attack On Europe: Documenting Russian Equipment Losses During The Russian Invasion Of Ukraine

www.oryxspioenkop.com

Almost 2000 lost is a lot of very intensive "not using".

MSN

LOL all those HARM, Storm Shadow and JDAM strikes doing completely nothing i'm sure.

We're not China, we don't fight by human waves, look at the capabilities, not numbers.

The "were" suggests not good enough.

Implying Putin would tolerate people who want to change sides being right behind him in hierarchy.

Wrll,let agree,that we do not agree.In that particular case,i hope that you,not me,are right.
P.S if i am right,i would say "see,i told you" when we meet in massgrave !