mrttao
Well-known member
hmm. ok, that is fair.
what are your thoughts about these specific hadiths?
Religion and theology thread
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what are your thoughts about these specific hadiths?
JDoe
Member
My opinions are of course not perfect, but I feel the video was poorly made and based on conjecture, and I'll make points in order of the hadiths in the video, it's quite long so I'll put it in spoiler to not disturb and for anyone who is interested;
1) The most infamous one that most people have heard about, the marrying of a 6 year old girl, Aisha and how the marriage was consummated when Aisha was 9 years of age. This is one of the most dubious claims that have pervaded Islam and specifically Muhammad. The age of Aisha mentioned in aforementioned hadith is inconsistent with known historical facts and the historical nature of the hadith itself is sketchy at best, here's some evidence;
Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad’s earliest known biographer, mentioned nothing about Aisha’s age at marriage, the detail was added later by historian Ibn Hisham, the crippling problem was it was added between the years 754 and 765 CE, nearly 200 years after Muhammad's lifetime and he dropped the tale in Iraq, almost 1,000 miles away from the city of Medina (where the marriage would have taken place).
This support the case that the myth of Prophet's marriage with an underage Aisha was most likely invented in eighth-century Iraq and only later in the future projected onto the life story of Muhammad. Iraq at that time was extremely prone to factionalism and were not shy of using weak or even fake hadiths prevalent after Muhammad's death to further sectarian and political ends, Its authenticity is equivalent to the end result of a game of telephone over several cities for centuries.
2) I am genuinely confused why he included sucking a finger after eating food to be a "disgusting" act worthy of shame by Muhammad, it doesnt fit and just seems like a personal pet peeve of the guy, especially considering its what the majority of people do after eating chips or practically almost any food that is eaten by hand before we wipe or wash it.
The hadith itself taken out of context. If you look at it culturally, it says the prophet told his followers to lick their fingers after eating, or have someone else lick it before wiping and washing the finger (meaning, such as a husband or wife, not just some rando) because Muhammad's words in this hadith are not You-Must-Do-It otherwise you have sinned type of thing, its just a suggestion of manners. The verse doesnt actually mandate strangers sucking eachother's fingers, that is a misconception.
3) This is another case of a bad interpretation of a verse, In this case, it was the practice of Arabs who lived in the dry desert climate to moisten the lips and mouth of a child who was suffering from thirst. If a child had parched lips or dry mouth and water was scarce, they could be relieved by sharing saliva. This was something practical and necessary in the tough climate in which they lived. Muhammad also had to do this to his two young grandsons because they were suffering from thirst and there was no water available.(Source: Al-Mu’jam al-Kabīr 2588 and Kitāb al-Shifā 1/326) So no, it does not mean anything like said in the video.
4) I have to question some claims he made in this part, disregarding how you personally feel about Muhammad having multiple wives, the guy in the video mentions the hot Arabian temperatures in the day as a reason why Muhammad was disgusting for only taking one bath after intercourse...but the deed was done at night, and Muhammad bathed once at night to cleanse himself, it never mentions anything about Muhammad's daily bathing routine? The guy was misconstruing things irrelevant to the passage and making claims out of nothing.
This specific hadith referenced in the video only happened as a one time occurence as here is another hadith which shows the regular routine of the Prophet which is spending every night with 1 wife(Sunan Abi Dawud 2135). The particular time where the Prophet had intimacy with all his wives in 1 night only happened once after the Farewell Hajj Pilgrimage he did, which means this is not a regular occurence.
5) These hadiths NEVER flippin mentions that Muhammad clothes were always covered in semen, sigh, the guy deliberately made baseless assumptions and interpretations after seeing a few lines. What these hadiths were about is simple, a follower asked what to do if clothes are covered in seminal fluids, and one of Muhammad wives tells them the method.
If you think about it for more than two seconds, scraping and washing it off is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, the 'water spots' mentioned are literally water that has not dried after washing the clothes and not leftover semen like he seems to think it is. The reason Muhammad didn't wash his clothes is because his wives did it for him like other spouses at Arab did at the time, did the guy forget it's not the 21st century yet when these were written?
Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad’s earliest known biographer, mentioned nothing about Aisha’s age at marriage, the detail was added later by historian Ibn Hisham, the crippling problem was it was added between the years 754 and 765 CE, nearly 200 years after Muhammad's lifetime and he dropped the tale in Iraq, almost 1,000 miles away from the city of Medina (where the marriage would have taken place).
This support the case that the myth of Prophet's marriage with an underage Aisha was most likely invented in eighth-century Iraq and only later in the future projected onto the life story of Muhammad. Iraq at that time was extremely prone to factionalism and were not shy of using weak or even fake hadiths prevalent after Muhammad's death to further sectarian and political ends, Its authenticity is equivalent to the end result of a game of telephone over several cities for centuries.
2) I am genuinely confused why he included sucking a finger after eating food to be a "disgusting" act worthy of shame by Muhammad, it doesnt fit and just seems like a personal pet peeve of the guy, especially considering its what the majority of people do after eating chips or practically almost any food that is eaten by hand before we wipe or wash it.
The hadith itself taken out of context. If you look at it culturally, it says the prophet told his followers to lick their fingers after eating, or have someone else lick it before wiping and washing the finger (meaning, such as a husband or wife, not just some rando) because Muhammad's words in this hadith are not You-Must-Do-It otherwise you have sinned type of thing, its just a suggestion of manners. The verse doesnt actually mandate strangers sucking eachother's fingers, that is a misconception.
3) This is another case of a bad interpretation of a verse, In this case, it was the practice of Arabs who lived in the dry desert climate to moisten the lips and mouth of a child who was suffering from thirst. If a child had parched lips or dry mouth and water was scarce, they could be relieved by sharing saliva. This was something practical and necessary in the tough climate in which they lived. Muhammad also had to do this to his two young grandsons because they were suffering from thirst and there was no water available.(Source: Al-Mu’jam al-Kabīr 2588 and Kitāb al-Shifā 1/326) So no, it does not mean anything like said in the video.
4) I have to question some claims he made in this part, disregarding how you personally feel about Muhammad having multiple wives, the guy in the video mentions the hot Arabian temperatures in the day as a reason why Muhammad was disgusting for only taking one bath after intercourse...but the deed was done at night, and Muhammad bathed once at night to cleanse himself, it never mentions anything about Muhammad's daily bathing routine? The guy was misconstruing things irrelevant to the passage and making claims out of nothing.
This specific hadith referenced in the video only happened as a one time occurence as here is another hadith which shows the regular routine of the Prophet which is spending every night with 1 wife(Sunan Abi Dawud 2135). The particular time where the Prophet had intimacy with all his wives in 1 night only happened once after the Farewell Hajj Pilgrimage he did, which means this is not a regular occurence.
5) These hadiths NEVER flippin mentions that Muhammad clothes were always covered in semen, sigh, the guy deliberately made baseless assumptions and interpretations after seeing a few lines. What these hadiths were about is simple, a follower asked what to do if clothes are covered in seminal fluids, and one of Muhammad wives tells them the method.
If you think about it for more than two seconds, scraping and washing it off is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, the 'water spots' mentioned are literally water that has not dried after washing the clothes and not leftover semen like he seems to think it is. The reason Muhammad didn't wash his clothes is because his wives did it for him like other spouses at Arab did at the time, did the guy forget it's not the 21st century yet when these were written?
mrttao
Well-known member
1. I am pretty sure 99% of muslims in muslim countries acknowledge this as a fact that aisha was 6 and 9 on marriage / deflowering respectively.
2. The gross part was the "or have it sucked" part. which indicates that in addition to sucking their own fingers, they were also sucking each other's fingers.
3. this isn't how dehydration works. if someone is this dehydrated, then they don't need to kiss a man, they need water.
4. the hot weather is mentioned as an exacerbating circumstance. Not the sole cause. That is, he is saying "this is bad. made even worse in the hot desert weather"
and it wasn't "only one bath after one intercourse". it was "9 seperate intercourses throughout the day, but only 1 bath".
5. are you saying that specific hadith is a complete fabrication? because he reads the entire thing and it was pretty clear.
also, the guy in the video explicitly said that he is going to give this the most charitable reading he can, and assume the water spots were indeed just water spots. a result of aisha cleaning out the semen stains from muhammad's clothes.
overall, my impression was that you skimmed the video.
JDoe
Member
1) 99% is a massive exaggeration, where is your source for that? that particular hadith is disputed, there are some who believe it and some who dont, the Middle East is the main proprietor while Muslims in other countries are less inclined to believe it.
2) as I said, I feel its more of a pet peeve and my explanation mentions people such as husband and wife can do that to eachother, not strangers. This act is not mandatory as a Muslim right now or even at the time so I dont see the point.
3) The Arabians at that time only did that when there is no water, I literally mentioned that, you can debate the effectiveness of it but thats not the point, the point is I gave context as to why Muhammad did what he did.
4) throughout the "night" not day, it said one night in the hadith, there is nothing saying it was during daytime, so his point is not relevant.
5) No I'm not saying it's a fabrication, there is nothing in my post that suggest that, Its a hadith about what to do if clothes were stained with seminal fluid, I felt that saying Muhammad was "always" covered in it based on the hadith was a big stretch.
For the record, I didnt skim the video, I watched it many times to make sure I'd understand it properly and explained why I'd disagreed.
King Arts
Well-known member
But the Quran isn't the sum total of Islam. Most Muslims even traditional ones say that without Hadiths the religion can't be practiced. Koran onlyists are thought of as kaffirs aren't they? It's similar to Jews not just having the old testament they also use their own traditions like the talmud.
As for the reliability of the Hadith I was under the impression that the guy who said Aisha was 9 was well respected by Sunni Al bukari. That looks to be Shahih the highest level so I don't know why you are questioning it's reliability among Sunnis.
Sahih al-Bukhari - Wikipedia
Muhammad al-Bukhari - Wikipedia
I don't like a lot of David's arguments against Islam because they are liberal arguments.
He ends up saying Christianity is all about peace(it is about peace but thats not all war is sometimes allowed) using arguments like Jesus never said to conquer, and then we get surprised when liberal Christians say "Jesus never talked against gays!"
As for the Aisha thing. I don't know if this is true because I saw it in a youtube comment so I don't know if the guy was Shia, or not, or making shit up.
But he said that Shia Muslims don't think Aisha was 6 to 9 but instead 16 to 19. He said Shia think of Aisha as an evil whore who seduced Muhammad for her and her families political advantage and was basically Cersei Lannister without the incest. This guy said that the Sunni later on wrote the hadith of Aisha being 6 or 9 to argue against the Shia. Since the argument would be that it's ridiculous to think a young child would be a political player who is moving chess pieces to her advantage.
Again I don't know if it's true or not that Shia believe that. I just remember reading that.
JDoe
Member
That is fair, I'm of course not saying that hadiths should be ignored (especially since I also follow them ) I am merely questioning several hadiths that I admit I'm biased against on principle. Based on the history, It was only after at least two centuries of Prophet’s death, that compilations of Hadiths in form of written books were produced. No matter how much effort was taken by sincere Hadith scholars and compilers, it was humanly impossible to remove every fake narration from their compilation.
There is nothing inherently embarrassing or “blasphemous” about doubting the hadiths, even Sahih (“authentic”) hadiths. Back in the day, some of the mainstream classical Muslim scholars have rejected many hadiths if the Isnad (chain of transmission) and Matn (content) of such hadiths didn't meet their criteria of evaluation. Bukhari is acknowledged to be the most reliable compiler of hadiths, but even he's not perfect, he reportedly collected over 600.000 hadiths, even if that number is exaggerated, it still means he analyzed and filtered a lot of them, and he ended up only putting 7,563 hadith narrations in his book.
Poe
Well-known member
I can't do this, I have explained now three times what I said and it was so clear from the beginning I shouldn't have. You are either militantly dishonest or a retard who can't comprehend English. Either way, you need to fuck off and stop quoting me.