United States Biden administration policies and actions - megathread

History Learner

Well-known member
More like how long until we see the wholesale collapse of society.
best start sharpening your bladed weapons and cleaning your guns (if you have any) because you're gonna need them very soon.

The collapse of society would be the worst possible thing because we've already used up all the easily accessible fossil fuels and their timeline for regeneration is millions if not tens of millions of years. Basically, this whole civilization we have right now is it, there is no second change because if this falls apart we won't get another shot beyond, at maximum, roughly 1700s or so standard of living.
 

Robovski

Well-known member
The collapse of society would be the worst possible thing because we've already used up all the easily accessible fossil fuels and their timeline for regeneration is millions if not tens of millions of years. Basically, this whole civilization we have right now is it, there is no second change because if this falls apart we won't get another shot beyond, at maximum, roughly 1700s or so standard of living.
We can always get to wood fuel (or alcohol fuelled) steam. And there is still a LOT of coal. So move that up a century at least.
 

Knowledgeispower

Ah I love the smell of missile spam in the morning
We can always get to wood fuel (or alcohol fuelled) steam. And there is still a LOT of coal. So move that up a century at least.
And you can make oil from coal and the USN has been looking into making algae and bacteria produce JP-5 and diesel fuel....with decent results
 

History Learner

Well-known member
We can always get to wood fuel (or alcohol fuelled) steam. And there is still a LOT of coal. So move that up a century at least.

Don't count on that either; fun fact is that a lot of the forests of Europe and North America are relatively young because of our insane wood consumption in older times. As for coal, while reserves are estimated at about 300 years or so at current consumption, the easily accessible stores have already been used up, which is why Mountain Top Removal (MTR) has become so big in the last couple of decades. That's not really something capable of a society until you hit 20th Century level technology.
 

Urabrask Revealed

Let them go.
Founder
And we all know how her story ends...


Unlike Harris, however, Daenerys was justified in burning and sacking King's Landing. The northern army agreed, with how eargerly they started killing the soldiers responsible for years of misery. If anything, the only people who disagreed with her, were the elites of Westeros. Funny how the people who had done just as fucked-up things moralize at her for doing the same thing.

Fun fact, there's precedent that ringing the bells of King's Landing is meant to signal the inhabitants's will to fight to the last. A city surrendering requires the ruler of said city to bend the knee. Take these things into account, and Daenerys was legally in the right.
 

Bigking321

Well-known member
Fun fact, there's precedent that ringing the bells of King's Landing is meant to signal the inhabitants's will to fight to the last.

Wait... I thought the bells meant that they had surrendered. Wasn't that why her torching the place was controversial?

Edit:
Yeah, just googled it the bells meant they surrendered then she killed them all anyway.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
The collapse of society would be the worst possible thing because we've already used up all the easily accessible fossil fuels and their timeline for regeneration is millions if not tens of millions of years. Basically, this whole civilization we have right now is it, there is no second change because if this falls apart we won't get another shot beyond, at maximum, roughly 1700s or so standard of living.

You know, it's really sad watching someone say something so incredibly wrong with such confidence.

1. Some knowledge doesn't require advanced logistics chains to take advantage of. Like hygiene helping prevent disease.
2. Even if society at large collapses, a lot of our individual bits of technology will still be usable for a very long time. Diesel engines are notorious for being able to be converted to run on simple things like cooking oil. Cooking oil can be made from simple hand-operated machinery if need be. In order to lose all of our progress, we'd need not just collapse, but for civilization to be wiped out.
3. Significant amounts of oil can still be reached via drilling methods available in the 1800's.
4. A large number of power plants are built well away from population centers, and aren't exactly the sorts of places random rioters and looters are going to go for free shit. Nuclear power plants in particular have a wonderful combination of security, durability, and longevity, making them prime sources of power for outlasting societal decay.
5. Even if almost every single bit of infrastructure fails, all it takes to rebuild us directly back to 1980's-1990's level technology, is one group of a couple dozen people with good skills, a good-quality 3D printer (not the cheap ones just used for making plastic toys and the like), a lathe, and a decent library.

There are thousands of good libraries in the US, as well as tens of thousands of lathes and mid-grade 3D printers.

Yes, there is less easily-accessible fossil fuels, but nuclear, hydro, geothermal, and even some small amounts of wind and solar can all combine to get some basic things going to rebuild everything else.
 

Urabrask Revealed

Let them go.
Founder
Wait... I thought the bells meant that they had surrendered. Wasn't that why her torching the place was controversial?

Edit:
Yeah, just googled it the bells meant they surrendered then she killed them all anyway.
Davos stated in Season 9 Episode 9 that he has never known them to mean surrender. Tyrons noted that the bells ringing could mean a wedding, and Varys stated the bells rung whenever something bad happened like funerals or the city being under siege.

Even in real life, once the walls have fallen, the city was free for the sacking and burning.

Furthermore, the Lannisters have broken every rule of engament first and thoroughly. They lost the right to be protected from the consequences of their actions. The inhabitants of King's Landing cheered when Ned Stark was executed.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
You know, it's really sad watching someone say something so incredibly wrong with such confidence.

1. Some knowledge doesn't require advanced logistics chains to take advantage of. Like hygiene helping prevent disease.

This is about the only thing I can see, but that doesn't really help the standard of living so much as it reduces overall mortality rates.

2. Even if society at large collapses, a lot of our individual bits of technology will still be usable for a very long time. Diesel engines are notorious for being able to be converted to run on simple things like cooking oil. Cooking oil can be made from simple hand-operated machinery if need be. In order to lose all of our progress, we'd need not just collapse, but for civilization to be wiped out.

For a long time, on the scale of engines such as the ones you cite, is at most decades.

3. Significant amounts of oil can still be reached via drilling methods available in the 1800's.

Such as?

4. A large number of power plants are built well away from population centers, and aren't exactly the sorts of places random rioters and looters are going to go for free shit. Nuclear power plants in particular have a wonderful combination of security, durability, and longevity, making them prime sources of power for outlasting societal decay.

Not without the supporting technicians and infrastructure.

5. Even if almost every single bit of infrastructure fails, all it takes to rebuild us directly back to 1980's-1990's level technology, is one group of a couple dozen people with good skills, a good-quality 3D printer (not the cheap ones just used for making plastic toys and the like), a lathe, and a decent library.

And what, exactly, is supposed to power all of that? How, exactly, are the logistics for the supplies needed to run your lathes and 3D Printers? Technicians? This is isn't the First/Second Industrial Revolution anymore when you could use relatively unskilled labor.

There are thousands of good libraries in the US, as well as tens of thousands of lathes and mid-grade 3D printers.

See above

Yes, there is less easily-accessible fossil fuels, but nuclear, hydro, geothermal, and even some small amounts of wind and solar can all combine to get some basic things going to rebuild everything else.

Which relies upon them not being damaged in a collapse and having the skilled technicians to run them, the inputs necessary to operate them, the supporting infrastructure and a whole host of other things. Just as society is complex, so too is the machinery we use to sustain it and that's why we have dedicated training programs for such, because you can't run a nuclear power plant or even solar farms based solely off reading a book from a library.
 

Vaermina

Well-known member
Which relies upon them not being damaged in a collapse and having the skilled technicians to run them, the inputs necessary to operate them, the supporting infrastructure and a whole host of other things. Just as society is complex, so too is the machinery we use to sustain it and that's why we have dedicated training programs for such, because you can't run a nuclear power plant or even solar farms based solely off reading a book from a library.
Solar Thermal energy production is actually really simple when you get down to it.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Which relies upon them not being damaged in a collapse and having the skilled technicians to run them, the inputs necessary to operate them, the supporting infrastructure and a whole host of other things. Just as society is complex, so too is the machinery we use to sustain it and that's why we have dedicated training programs for such, because you can't run a nuclear power plant or even solar farms based solely off reading a book from a library.

Yes, our economy and infrastructure is very complex.

We aren't looking at a zombie horror movie where ~95% of the population just up and dies over a few weeks/months. A societal collapse doesn't just 'happen,' and then everyone important to infrastructure is dead all at once.

You are basically supposing that suddenly, magically, all the essential parts of making our nation work all disappear at once.

My point, is that barring all-out nuclear war, no situation that even comes close to that will happen.

Okay, so the economy collapses, there's rioting and looting in the major cities, and not the carefully-protected stuff right now, but mass riots that kill thousands and burn entire districts down. Government officials are killed, the cops either die, join riots, or GTFO. The military is out of the picture either out of principled refusal to get involved in civilian political strife, or because they're stuck fighting China on the far side of the world.

Okay then, what all is really lost? Not anywhere near as much as some people think; 99%+ of the population is still alive, including 99%+ of all the critical infrastructure labor.

Let's assume things are much, much worse. The riots cause fires that go completely out of control, hysterical clashing between heavily-armed Antifa thugs and regular citizens erupt throughout the major cities, and hundreds of thousands die. This would be the worst sort of civil unrest the West has ever seen.

You still have 99%+ of the population alive. Even if some major port facilities and railroads are damaged, you aren't losing all of them, and even if somehow we can no longer get imported raw materials from overseas, very nearly every raw material in the world can be produced right here in the USA. Some of it requires reactivating mines that couldn't compete with super-cheap stuff from China or the third world, and some very specific things we'd have to either find new sources of or develop substitutes for.

That's okay, we've done that before. Before WWII something like 95% of rubber was sourced from specific raw materials in SE Asia; after the war, during which the Japanese had choked off control of it, the majority of rubber was now made through synthetic processes that had practically not existed before then. More recently, back in ~2010 China controlled something like 95% of Rare Earths production, at one point they tried to use that near-monopoly to establish a stranglehold on the market. Within 2 years other extraction sources had been spun up and China no longer had the ability to choke things out.

Some things are easier to deal with, some are much harder (cutting-edge semi-conductor production, the majority of which runs out of Taiwan right now, being one of the most difficult), but you wouldn't just need a societal breakdown to permanently spike production, you'd need to commit genocide and outright nuke infrastructure to do so.

Society can still not only recover, it can easily recover. It would be a great tragedy, but my point about 'all it takes is one group of well-skilled people with a good 3D printer and a lathe' is just how ridiculously thoroughly you have to destroy society for it not to be able to recover.

A lot of damage can be done, and a lot of people can suffer and die in very painful and tragic ways, and the ability to recover will still easily exist. The fact that a lot of easily-accessible oil deposits and coal seams have been mostly-extracted as you said isn't remotely enough to keep society from recovering from painful and harsh blows. (And to answer as to what oil resources are still easily-accessible with simpler technology, the tar sands in Alberta and Saudi Arabia's primary oil fields just off the top of my head)

So, what kind of 'societal collapse' is it you're talking about? A giant meteor striking the Earth? The Yellowstone supervolcano erupting and rendering a third of North America uninhabitable?
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
Yes, our economy and infrastructure is very complex.

We aren't looking at a zombie horror movie where ~95% of the population just up and dies over a few weeks/months. A societal collapse doesn't just 'happen,' and then everyone important to infrastructure is dead all at once.

You are basically supposing that suddenly, magically, all the essential parts of making our nation work all disappear at once.

My point, is that barring all-out nuclear war, no situation that even comes close to that will happen.

Okay, so the economy collapses, there's rioting and looting in the major cities, and not the carefully-protected stuff right now, but mass riots that kill thousands and burn entire districts down. Government officials are killed, the cops either die, join riots, or GTFO. The military is out of the picture either out of principled refusal to get involved in civilian political strife, or because they're stuck fighting China on the far side of the world.

Okay then, what all is really lost? Not anywhere near as much as some people think; 99%+ of the population is still alive, including 99%+ of all the critical infrastructure labor.

Let's assume things are much, much worse. The riots cause fires that go completely out of control, hysterical clashing between heavily-armed Antifa thugs and regular citizens erupt throughout the major cities, and hundreds of thousands die. This would be the worst sort of civil unrest the West has ever seen.

You still have 99%+ of the population alive. Even if some major port facilities and railroads are damaged, you aren't losing all of them, and even if somehow we can no longer get imported raw materials from overseas, very nearly every raw material in the world can be produced right here in the USA. Some of it requires reactivating mines that couldn't compete with super-cheap stuff from China or the third world, and some very specific things we'd have to either find new sources of or develop substitutes for.

That's okay, we've done that before. Before WWII something like 95% of rubber was sourced from specific raw materials in SE Asia; after the war, during which the Japanese had choked off control of it, the majority of rubber was now made through synthetic processes that had practically not existed before then. More recently, back in ~2010 China controlled something like 95% of Rare Earths production, at one point they tried to use that near-monopoly to establish a stranglehold on the market. Within 2 years other extraction sources had been spun up and China no longer had the ability to choke things out.

Some things are easier to deal with, some are much harder (cutting-edge semi-conductor production, the majority of which runs out of Taiwan right now, being one of the most difficult), but you wouldn't just need a societal breakdown to permanently spike production, you'd need to commit genocide and outright nuke infrastructure to do so.

Society can still not only recover, it can easily recover. It would be a great tragedy, but my point about 'all it takes is one group of well-skilled people with a good 3D printer and a lathe' is just how ridiculously thoroughly you have to destroy society for it not to be able to recover.

A lot of damage can be done, and a lot of people can suffer and die in very painful and tragic ways, and the ability to recover will still easily exist. The fact that a lot of easily-accessible oil deposits and coal seams have been mostly-extracted as you said isn't remotely enough to keep society from recovering from painful and harsh blows. (And to answer as to what oil resources are still easily-accessible with simpler technology, the tar sands in Alberta and Saudi Arabia's primary oil fields just off the top of my head)

So, what kind of 'societal collapse' is it you're talking about? A giant meteor striking the Earth? The Yellowstone supervolcano erupting and rendering a third of North America uninhabitable?
You know, you're really taking the fun out of doomsday prepping.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
You know, you're really taking the fun out of doomsday prepping.

By all means, keep prepping. Do it wisely, with not just food, fuel, and ammunition, but also well-written how-to manuals, textbooks, and fabrication equipment. Good engineers (like my dad) could rebuild us to 1950's technology just with a single quality lathe, even if it had to be hand-cranked.

Good prepping is what helps build the safety margin against societal collapse.

To give some idea of part of how and why this works, there were two major advantages that the US military had in training its new recruits during WWII. The first, I'm sure it will surprise no one familiar with our culture to hear, is that most people were both familiar with guns and already had some basic practice shooting, and so were already somewhat accurate.

The second, was how widespread private tractor and automobile ownership were. As a consequence, a lot of Americans already knew their way around machinery, or were outright professional mechanics, meaning you didn't need to train your tank and ship crews up from being peasant farmers that were lucky if they had a donkey.


While the concept that you should know how to fix your own car isn't as near-universal in America as it once as, you'll still find a significant percentage of homeowners who have extremely developed sets of tools in their garage, including specialized power tools. My dad has an air compressor, impact hammers, two different types of welders, and an Oxycetilyne torch. My brother in law has a compressor and a table saw. That's not even counting the easily hand-portable tools both of them have; drills, angle grinders, sawzzle, etc.

If you don't work in or with such industries, you'll not be aware of just how common small machine shops, some with very high-quality and specialized tools are. If you live in a city of over 20,000, there's probably at least one tool and die place, several welding shops, and a variety of more generalized machine shops. Towns of less than a thousand commonly have mechanics shops that have a variety of machine tools, and larger towns with more specialized auto work places will have all kinds of specialized devices.


In some ways, our infrastructure is terribly fragile. Someone with a chainsaw and an Oxycetilyne torch with plenty of fuel could go out and start taking down power lines easily. That part of our infrastructure is primarily protected by the assumption that nobody would be crazy enough to deliberately sabotage it. In ways like that, it's very easy to deal damage.

Conversely, the equipment and skillsets to repair that kind of damage are all over the place, and skillsets that are 'similar enough' that they can easily help the true specialists are outright common.

Part of the reason that our nation has held up so well to a century of Democrats dragging down everything that they can, is because there's a lot of determined people out there trying to build things up instead, and they've been pretty bloody successful as well.
 

BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
I'd rather go with my bicycle. You get much more stealth with a bike than a car, at the cost of carrying capacity, both passenger and cargo.
I mean, even the might Wehrmacht had bicycle infantry as recon, general transportation, and dispatch riders (rarely).
Rdfc46c6f82a05b7db5d0fa82f38745d6


I'll just bike to the rendezvous point my friends and I have determined beforehand and then throw my bike onto my friend's pickup truck.
When stealth recon is required, I'll dismount the bike and take a good look.

Like all people of Chinese heritage, I am a profession when it comes to bike maintenance. :p
Always some spare parts in my garage.

Fortunately, one of my friends (there are 3 of them, 4 plus me) who became a mechanic (cars, but he also does boat engines) after high school.
Very efficient welder as well.
 

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