Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

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WolfBear

Well-known member
There's actually an Axis-themed anime, if you're curious, @Zyobot:


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Also, which bloc do Vichy France and Francoist Spain join in this TL?
 
Doomsought

Doomsought

Well-known member
WolfBear said:
Too many French to exterminate. You're talking about exterminating 40 million people in a country where they are the overwhelming majority of the total population. Much harder than exterminating a 6 million-strong Jewish minority where they numbered no more than 15% at the very most in any of the countries that they lived in.
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That has never stopped Germans from trying. It would probably be a combination of death camps, artificial famines and large scale poisonings ongoing for years before the Germans give up the extermination efforts.
 
Zyobot

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Doomsought said:
That has never stopped Germans from trying. It would probably be a combination of death camps, artificial famines and large scale poisonings ongoing for years before the Germans give up the extermination efforts.
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So, basically, a more "multifaceted" French Holodomor that makes Stalin's mass-murdering look reserved and restrained?
 
Doomsought

Doomsought

Well-known member
Zyobot said:
So, basically, a more "multifaceted" French Holodomor that makes Stalin's mass-murdering look reserved and restrained?
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Yes, though probably even less successful than the holodomor if you count by percent of population.

Though what are your thoughts of the selling the UK Normandy idea? Would the UK bite?
 
Rhyse

Rhyse

Well-known member
Doomsought said:
Yes, though probably even less successful than the holodomor if you count by percent of population.

Though what are your thoughts of the selling the UK Normandy idea? Would the UK bite?
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There was nearly an Anglo-French governmental union IIRC? So assuming war were off the table, the UK would probably bite. Makes sense to have some hold on the continent rather than none. What happens to French colonial holdings though? Would the UK be given Normandy and similar regions in return for helping the Germans take French controlled regions of Africa?
 
Doomsought

Doomsought

Well-known member
Rhyse said:
There was nearly an Anglo-French governmental union IIRC? So assuming war were off the table, the UK would probably bite. Makes sense to have some hold on the continent rather than none. What happens to French colonial holdings though? Would the UK be given Normandy and similar regions in return for helping the Germans take French controlled regions of Africa?
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I'm not sure, I think there will be a bit of horse trading on dibs that won't be acted on immediately and will in several cases be reneged upon later, like how the British raised a stink over Italy taking the parts of Africa they were promised after the First World War.

The Germans will likely never actually claim many parts of Africa they claim dibs on, and those places will de-facto gain their independence, either under the control of the French governors or a native rebellion.

Germany will be too busy brutalizing the French, and after Hitler dies (probably of an overdose) his successor will be too busy unfucking Germany's ex-french territory to worry about colonial adventurism.

One interesting possibility is that if the talks between Germany and the UK are ongoing before or during Pearl Harbor, the US might declare war on Japan but not Germany.

The whole second world war woudl be a squirming mess.
 
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WolfBear

Well-known member
'AHC: Have Israel be much more accepting of mass non-Jewish immigration'

Note: It doesn't actually have to involve Arabs and/or Muslims immigrating to Israel en masse. Rather, other groups such as East Asians, Slavs, Vietnamese, Thais, Filipinos, Hindus, et cetera could immigrate to Israel en masse instead in this TL.
 
S

stevep

Well-known member
WolfBear said:
Too many French to exterminate. You're talking about exterminating 40 million people in a country where they are the overwhelming majority of the total population. Much harder than exterminating a 6 million-strong Jewish minority where they numbered no more than 15% at the very most in any of the countries that they lived in.
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I would like to think you were right but I've read too much actual history to take it as a given.:eek:
 
Zyobot

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Skallagrim said:
German-Italian split akin to the Sino-Soviet split?

It wouldn't be the same kind of process, and even the exact motivations would differ, but Italy would certainly have good reasons to detach themselves from the Germans if at all possible.

It seems likely to me that in the event of France being conquered with the goal of exterminating the populace, there won't be a Vichy government. Instead, I could see the Germans handing South-Eastern France off to the Italians. So if Italy distances itself from the Nazi regime, then the insane hermit kingdom is entirely North of the Pyrenees-Massif Central-Alps line.

In fact, it would be OTL's wealthy, developed (and haughtily progressive) North-Western Europe that would primarily be turned into this ATL Nazi nightmare state. And presumably, refugees would be fleeing South.
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There could potentially be a break of that sort, albeit more because the Italians think the Nazis have gone off the deep end, as you alluded to (rather than the other way around, as IOTL). ;)

Problem is, I’m not sure how well Germany would take it, or whether Italy would be allowed to detach in the first place? After all, death cults aren’t known for being hospitable or reasonable, so trying to force Italy back into line if it’s becoming “too uppity” doesn’t sound implausible to me. In fact, I can see more “moderate” Nazis who know the Reich needs to vent a little suggesting Southern Europe as somewhere to invade next, due to how “uncooperative” it’s been and how many “undesirable” refugees have fled there. Declaring war on the far-flung (and much more powerful) American and Soviet states wouldn’t be feasible, and I think “moderates” within the Reich would know that.
 
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Skallagrim

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Zyobot said:
There could potentially be a break of that sort, albeit more because the Italians think the Nazis have gone off the deep end, as you alluded to (rather than the other way around, as IOTL). ;)

Problem is, I’m not sure how well Germany would take it, or whether Italy would be allowed to detach in the first place? After all, death cults aren’t known for being hospitable or reasonable, so trying to force Italy back into line if it’s becoming “too uppity” doesn’t sound implausible to me. In fact, I can see more “moderate” Nazis who know the Reich needs to vent a little suggesting Southern Europe as somewhere to invade next, due to how “uncooperative” it’s been and how many “undesirable” refugees have fled there. Declaring war on the far-flung (and much more powerful) American and Soviet states wouldn’t be feasible, and I think “moderates” within the Reich would know that.
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Well, Germany didn't actually rule Italy, and depending on how Italy does, turning them into an enemy may dangerously broaden the enemy coalition. Of course, the Nazis aren't all that sane and clear-minded. But still, having Italy go their own way a bit while still both being against the other blocs is better than turning everyone against you in unison.

Come to think of it, I wouln't be surprised if at least a faction in Germany reacted with: "Ah, good, those swarthy Italians were always half-African mongrels, better to have them out of our pure, Aryan brotherhood!"
 
Zyobot

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Skallagrim said:
Well, Germany didn't actually rule Italy, and depending on how Italy does, turning them into an enemy may dangerously broaden the enemy coalition. Of course, the Nazis aren't all that sane and clear-minded. But still, having Italy go their own way a bit while still both being against the other blocs is better than turning everyone against you in unison.

Come to think of it, I wouln't be surprised if at least a faction in Germany reacted with: "Ah, good, those swarthy Italians were always half-African mongrels, better to have them out of our pure, Aryan brotherhood!"
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So, if Old Man Adolf (or whoever else) gets loopy and overreacts to Italy splitting off, he mysteriously “dies of natural causes” before any real preparations can begin? :unsure:
 
Skallagrim

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Zyobot said:
So, if Old Man Adolf (or whoever else) gets loopy and overreacts to Italy splitting off, he winds up “dead of natural causes” before any real preparations can begin? :unsure:
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I'm not sure Hitler is getting very old. His health was hetting poor in '45 in OTL. If he secures a victory that he considers satisfying in 1940, he'll probably fare a bit better, but he's not fated to become very old, I think. fter his death, it'll become increasingly clear that turning France and Poland into depopulated regions was a dumb move, and Germany's isolation will have increasingly unpleasant economic repercussions.

I think that by this time (say, late '50s?) Germany will have atomic weapons, thus preventing invasion, but its prospects will actually be dim. They have to either denazify themselves and edge their way back into the international system, or they can double down and proclaim themselves the "only pure" country, pretending that their paranoid isolation is a deliberate choice.

And let's be appropriately cynical here. First off, while murdering millions of Jews and Eastern Europeans is horrible, you know that the Anglo-Americans are going to care a whole lot more when it's millions of Western Europeans being industrially slaughtered. So "denazifying" is going to have to be very convincing and thorough before Germany is treated as a regular peer nation again... something which the Nazi leadership may not be willing to do. Beyond that, the Nazis are a bunch of rabid assholes, and while the Soviets managed de-Stalinisation, I think it's in the Nazi character to always choose "double down" instead of "back down".

For these reasons, I see this victorious Reich slipping into a North Korea-like status, which is why Italy (along with Spain and the rest of Southern Europe) would feel the powerful urge to back away to relative safrty, all while making no sudden moves...
 
Zyobot

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Skallagrim said:
I'm not sure Hitler is getting very old. His health was hetting poor in '45 in OTL. If he secures a victory that he considers satisfying in 1940, he'll probably fare a bit better, but he's not fated to become very old, I think. fter his death, it'll become increasingly clear that turning France and Poland into depopulated regions was a dumb move, and Germany's isolation will have increasingly unpleasant economic repercussions.

I think that by this time (say, late '50s?) Germany will have atomic weapons, thus preventing invasion, but its prospects will actually be dim. They have to either denazify themselves and edge their way back into the international system, or they can double down and proclaim themselves the "only pure" country, pretending that their paranoid isolation is a deliberate choice.

And let's be appropriately cynical here. First off, while murdering millions of Jews and Eastern Europeans is horrible, you know that the Anglo-Americans are going to care a whole lot more when it's millions of Western Europeans being industrially slaughtered. So "denazifying" is going to have to be very convincing and thorough before Germany is treated as a regular peer nation again... something which the Nazi leadership may not be willing to do. Beyond that, the Nazis are a bunch of rabid assholes, and while the Soviets managed de-Stalinisation, I think it's in the Nazi character to always choose "double down" instead of "back down".

For these reasons, I see this victorious Reich slipping into a North Korea-like status, which is why Italy (along with Spain and the rest of Southern Europe) would feel the powerful urge to back away to relative safrty, all while making no sudden moves...
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Fair assessment, though even then, I fear the balance of power still stands on a knife’s edge as a Second Great War becomes more and more likely…

Other than that, I’m guessing the USSR—while not decimated by its massive losses in World War II, thankfully—would grow increasingly “concerned” about its western border and slowly, but surely militarize. He may have honored their Pact, but part of me can see an elderly Stalin—disturbed by reports coming on of the Nazis exterminating the French en masse, and realizing that an even bigger monster than himself lurks to the USSR’s left—musing that he should’ve crushed Hitler when he had the chance, before dying of a stroke in ’53 and passing the baton off to someone else. Unfortunately, I’m not sure his successor would liberalize like Khrushchev did, since the whole “continent-spanning death cult as our next-door neighbor” shtick would foster paranoia and purity tests, not ease up on it. The USSR remaining Stalinist well after the man himself dies? That could very well be, I fear, though compared to what’s going on in the heart of Europe, odds are Soviet internal affairs are the last thing on people’s minds right now. :(
 
W

WolfBear

Well-known member
Skallagrim said:
Come to think of it, I wouln't be surprised if at least a faction in Germany reacted with: "Ah, good, those swarthy Italians were always half-African mongrels, better to have them out of our pure, Aryan brotherhood!"
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I suppose that, in this TL, the Nazis can always boast about how even back when the Germanics were illiterate savages, they were still able to defeat the almighty Romans under the leadership of Arminius in this battle :D:

 
Skallagrim

Skallagrim

Well-known member
WolfBear said:
I suppose that, in this TL, the Nazis can always boast about how even back when the Germanics were illiterate savages, they were still able to defeat the almighty Romans under the leadership of Arminius in this battle :D:

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Ah, yes, Roman-educated Arminius, who was made a citizen and "attained the dignity of equestrian rank". And then betrayed the Romans who had made his career. That Arminius.

(Incidentally, I might point out this episode to @Lord Sovereign as a potential argument against trying to make foreigners into citizens altogether too quickly. I agree that "making them part of the tribe", as was observed in this discussion, has value in itself... but I feel it's better to build up a more well-rooted bond of loyalty first. Arminius is an example of how things can go wrong.)
 
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WolfBear

Well-known member
Skallagrim said:
Ah, yes, Roman-educated Arminius, who was made a citizen and "attained the dignity of equestrian rank". And then betrayed the Romans who had made his career. That Arminius.

(Incidentally, I might point out this episode to @Lord Sovereign as a potential argument against trying to make foreigners into citizens altogether too quickly. I agree that "making them part of the tribe", as was observed in this discussion, has value in itself... but I feel it's better to build up a more well-rooted bond of loyalty first. Arminius is an example of how things can go wrong.)
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Would you favor replacing the natural-born citizen requirement for the US Presidency with a 35-year citizenship requirement that's equally applicable to everyone? At least that way, naturalized US citizens won't be discriminated against based on something that they can't control. This would have, of course, also prevented Hitler from acquiring the German Chancellorship since he would have had to wait until 1967 had a similar rule been in place in Germany in 1932-1933. ;)
 
Skallagrim

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Lord Sovereign said:
He's an example but not necessarily the rule so to speak. Roman assimilation was incredibly potent and usually happened quite quickly. Gaul did not have an Arminius.
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Gaul did have several leaders who joined Caesar and then tried to betray him later. He... wasn't subtle in the way he responded to that.

Generally speaking, the Gallic tribes were adopted as amici ("friends", meaning vassals) and disloyalty was brutally punished. Over time, many of these tribes were Romanised and fully absorbed into (what was by then) the Empire. This process of assimilation was indeed potent (we may say: utterly complete, since I don't see many Gauls around!) and did indeed happen quite quickly. But "quite quickly", in this context, means a few generations.

Arminius, on the other hand, was a German from a freshly (quasi-)subdued land where the Romans arrived during his life-time, and who was granted citizenship later on. That, I think, was a bit too quick. With the benefit of hindsight, the Romans would probably agree! ;)
 
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