United States Minnesota; Man, George Floyd, dies during arrest, cause being a cop kneeling on his neck

Battlegrinder

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"Innocent until proven guilty". Should apply regardless, not on the basis of profession or race.

It is shocking that in the USA, this simple principle has to be reminded to people.

Oh, certainly that should be the viewpoint the legal system holds towards those officers. But just because they haven't seen the inside of a courtroom yet doesn't mean that we're obligated to not make our own judgement based on the facts as we know them.

There are obviously plenty of people who have already made up thier minds about cops always being the bad guys and racist blah blah and are just using this story to push that narrative and demonstate their faux moral outrage. Such poor behavior is condemnable, but simply because other people are behaving poorly does not mean the proper response to automatically oppose those people or refuse to agree with them simply because they're the one's say it. Merely because they are bad people does not mean they are always wrong.

I don't think these cops were racist, or evil, or trying to do any such thing, and to my knowledge incidents like this are not nearly as common or as systematic as the narrative makes out, nor are the people advancing that narrative doing so in good faith. That doesn't mean they did the right thing here, quite the opposite. What they did was obviously wrong and obviously in violation of thier training on how to restrain someone, and they should face some kind of criminal changes for this. Not murder, because murder requires malicious intent that those guys didn't appear to have, but it's clearly manslaughter of some kind.
 

Battlegrinder

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Why do I get the feeling that once again the state will attempt to get a murder charge to stick and fail instead of going with the much easier to get a conviction charge of manslaughter

Do you happen to know how common that kind of thing actually is?
 

Terthna

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"Innocent until proven guilty". Should apply regardless, not on the basis of profession or race.

It is shocking that in the USA, this simple principle has to be reminded to people.
I agree, but the evidence available clearly indicates that a trial should probably take place concerning this incident, once the investigations into it have concluded.
 

Abhorsen

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So, I guess when you’re sure we don’t need juries. Just go straight to the execution for any white person charged with killing a black one. That is the mentality the media pushes and unfortunately one that has been adopted even by many on this largely right wing forum. I’m not saying they are innocent, I am saying that we investigate and go through due process, not decide guilt or innocence with the mob or the lying press that influence them. By all means, have an investigation and a trial, but don’t pretend that you know the whole story because you don’t.
Not what I'm saying at all. But in order to be able to have important discussions in a timely manner, it's necessary for the populace to come to a decision about someone's guilt in obvious cases, well before a jury verdict is necessarily reached. By all means, if the issue is complicated, it's worth it to wait. But this isn't complicated. This isn't a complex issue. We know who did this, we know what happened from multiple videos, so we can conclude things now beyond a reasonable doubt.

You don't seem to understand that you don't actually need all the evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. If I see person A fatally shoot person B unprovoked after shouting something about how B slept with A's wife, I don't need a jury trial to determine A murdered B. I also don't need to wait for the coroner's report or ballistics testing. It's pretty cut and dried. This is similarly cut and dried, because we have the video. This isn't some media crap, this isn't a mob. These are primary sources.

If there was doubt, like the Zimmerman case, or the Treyvon Martin case, I'm all for waiting. Same for the Johnny Depp case.
 

Largo

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So, I guess when you’re sure we don’t need juries. Just go straight to the execution for any white person charged with killing a black one. That is the mentality the media pushes and unfortunately one that has been adopted even by many on this largely right wing forum. I’m not saying they are innocent, I am saying that we investigate and go through due process, not decide guilt or innocence with the mob or the lying press that influence them. By all means, have an investigation and a trial, but don’t pretend that you know the whole story because you don’t.
So do I have to act like OJ didn't kill anyone because he was found not guilty?
 

Arch Dornan

Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
Not according to anything I can find.
It looks excessive. They're supposed to be arresting a suspect not killing them slowly with a choke hold.

I understand police when they detain a suspect must be handsy and forceful if necessary especially if they run but applying the knee to the neck like that is rather damaging to the neck just by glancing.

If they don't mete out violence as the their job gives them license to carry out within "acceptable" levels you get this.
 

Zachowon

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Pro LEo youtuber who defends both pro and anti dpending on case literally cant so he puts video of fellow Cop youtuber on to explain it better
Is it necessary for police to apply their knee on someone's neck when resisting arrest?
Not according to anything I can find.
It looks excessive. They're supposed to be arresting a suspect not killing them slowly with a choke hold.

I understand police when they detain a suspect must be handsy and forceful if necessary especially if they run but applying the knee to the neck like that is rather damaging to the neck just by glancing.

If they don't mete out violence as the their job gives them license to carry out within "acceptable" levels you get this.

*pops knuckles* Alright so putting a knee and weight on the neck is a valid thing used by cops, if it is to restrain the suspect to allow them to get handcuffed or to stop them from fighting back. In jail school they say put one knee on the ribs and the other on the neck. they will pass out if they keep fighting you is what should happen, of course worse happens.

As for this, The cop should have gotten off his neck but the whole "I CANT BREATHE" thing is almost never taken at face value by cops because of people saying that when the cops arnt even putting weight on them. I can understand the cop might be thinking "he is just saying that for me to let go" sorta thing. Should the cop have loosened his pressurte? yes for sure! But I am telling you he haas valid reason to not move his leg.
If this makesit harder for cops to do thier job and more cops and innocents die by criminals because a cop put to much pressure on a neck. I may stay in the Army all 20 years...
 

Husky_Khan

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Nine minutes seems excessive. He's already cuffed. If it's a worry then use leg restraints. Not sure why police don't use those more often.

Also... We already got threads on ethnonationalism. We should save it for those threads then badgering people on this thread about their lack of response. Could cause a needlessly uncivil derail.
 

Battlegrinder

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As for this, The cop should have gotten off his neck but the whole "I CANT BREATHE" thing is almost never taken at face value by cops because of people saying that when the cops arnt even putting weight on them. I can understand the cop might be thinking "he is just saying that for me to let go" sorta thing. Should the cop have loosened his pressurte? yes for sure! But I am telling you he haas valid reason to not move his leg.

I'm not particular concerned about them not caring what he was saying, I'd assume that cops are primed to automatically disbelieve any complaints from any suspect, because it's dishonest 99% of the time. Cops probably are trained to not listen to that kind of complaining from suspects.

What's relevant is what he is actually trained to do, and I doubt "stomp on their neck" is SOP for this department.

I noticed a sad fact about this situation, everyone will forget about this in a month or two and it will be like it never happened.

I doubt it. Oh, certainly no one's going to care about the dead guy in a few months, much like no one cares about him now, but there's a decent chance partisans will still drag up the incident in the midst of ranting about some other thing for ages.
 

Abhorsen

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Pro LEo youtuber who defends both pro and anti dpending on case literally cant so he puts video of fellow Cop youtuber on to explain it better
I wouldn't consider Donut Operator anywhere near unbiased. And even he says that putting a knee on someone's neck for 7 minutes is how you kill someone.
I noticed a sad fact about this situation, everyone will forget about this in a month or two and it will be like it never happened.
Just like they forgot about the Houston Drug raid.
 
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Marduk

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I'm not particular concerned about them not caring what he was saying, I'd assume that cops are primed to automatically disbelieve any complaints from any suspect, because it's dishonest 99% of the time. Cops probably are trained to not listen to that kind of complaining from suspects.
Yup. If you watch lots of arrest videos, both from the funny, odd and tragic categories, its a common feature.
It may look unusual that the cops don't react to it, outrageous to people dedicated to a narrative, but in reality by any chance this cop has probably heard it many, many times, and all the previous times nothing special happened.

Overall, with the information available, including the LEO comments, it seems like a case of professional malpractice. Which is probably going to turn into a long and complicated legal case, and someone is certainly going to be punished, but in the meantime a lot of blame tennis will happen between the cops involved, the police department, whoever else was in charge of training and certifying the cops, and possibly even the city itself, to establish a certain distribution of blame, and in turn, punishments.
 

Duke Nukem

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Yup. If you watch lots of arrest videos, both from the funny, odd and tragic categories, its a common feature.
It may look unusual that the cops don't react to it, outrageous to people dedicated to a narrative, but in reality by any chance this cop has probably heard it many, many times, and all the previous times nothing special happened.

Overall, with the information available, including the LEO comments, it seems like a case of professional malpractice. Which is probably going to turn into a long and complicated legal case, and someone is certainly going to be punished, but in the meantime a lot of blame tennis will happen between the cops involved, the police department, whoever else was in charge of training and certifying the cops, and possibly even the city itself, to establish a certain distribution of blame, and in turn, punishments.

I Don't see any excuse for kneeling on someone's neck for several minutes.
 

Marduk

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