Philosophy Dispelling Falsehoods about Thomism

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
An addendum to my post yesterday, an argument for hylemorphic dualism.
  1. Hylemorphism is true.
  2. So the human soul is the form of the body. (From 1)
  3. But the human soul engages in immaterial operations.
  4. Agere sequitur esse: whatever operates I-ly must be (exist) I-ly.
  5. So the human soul, qua executing immaterial operations, exists immaterially. (From 3 and 4)
  6. So the form of the body, qua executing immaterial operations, exists immaterially. (From 2 and 5)
Premise 1 is true if you accept Aristotle's division of all material objects into matter and form. Premise 3 is true if you accept that the human soul is capable of interacting with universals. And premise 4 is true because what denying it involves a denial of the principle of sufficient reason, for if an effect could go beyond its total efficient cause, then the part of the effect that went beyond it would have no explanation and be unintelligible.

Even if this isn't an argument Aristotle would've made, even if this is something original to St. Thomas due to his Platonic views, there's nothing about this that necessarily undermines Aristotelian ontology. In order to prove that, you'd have to show that the conclusion is manifestly self-contradictory, which I don't think you can do.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
One of the problems I had trying to make sense of Thomism (for example, by reading Feser) is that all the key words seem to mean something different from what they mean in normal-people English. "Form" being one of the worst offenders.

That said, it would be helpful if @worm that walks , who joined the server only this week, would tell us a bit about where he is coming from, belief-wise.
Reading between the lines so far, I think he's someone who doesn't believe in a nonphysical part of human nature.
So... @worm that walks what do you believe happens to people when they die?
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
One of the problems I had trying to make sense of Thomism (for example, by reading Feser) is that all the key words seem to mean something different from what they mean in normal-people English. "Form" being one of the worst offenders.

Indeed. This is something that Feser and other modern Thomists emphasize again and again.
 

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
Because plain language is inadequate? This is the purpose of technical language.
In most fields, technical language takes the form of new jargon, rather than the jargonization of existing vocabulary, specifically to prevent this sort of problem. Usually in the form of borrowing words from mostly-dead languages, or appending some qualifier to the existing words.

And ideally, you find a way to avoid any specialized technical language in the devising of a concept by way of verbose explanation in more plain language, then create technical terminology abbreviating this in a clear and concise matter.

Edit: Also, my own "hot take" on Plato is that all the talk of "Ideal Forms" is ivory tower fart-sniffing nonsense, as it is fundamentally impossible to show it is false, because it is specifically a supposition of unobservable phenomena. If something cannot be demonstrated to be wrong, then it ought not be taken as true, because you have no mechanism with which to reject it.

Empiricism has become so massively dominant because it's bluntly superior to any ordinary philosophizing in determining natural law, as it takes the position of determining those laws by way of physically proving them by constructing observable systems reliant upon the supposition of natural law to be tested, whereas "natural philosophy" has had countless instances of such easily disproven falsehoods as the claim that women have fewer teeth than men, because women are less mature, and the more mature have more teeth.

Don't have the slightest recollection of the grounding for the supposition of the immaturity of women, but it's one of those matters where isolated philosophizing is very prone to being blatantly wrong. The fundamentally different process of discovering natural law taken by empiricism is so extreme that it is generally considered to be wholly unrelated to philosophy, and thus science became a separate discipline that we rely on for civilization to work because it is so vastly superior to philosophizing in the discovery of natural law.

Edit 2: In the previous edit, "Natural Law" refers to the matter of the material concerns of the world, how things currently are, rather than the various forms of "moral law" or "heavenly law", or however one wishes to describe the matter of how things ought to be and "hidden" causes. Getting from how things are to how they should be is, if I recall correctly, one of the greatest gaps in logic facing all matters of philosophy. Science doesn't give a single damn because that's outside the subject matter, all science cares for is describing how the world functions as-is.
 
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worm that walks

Sexual Bolshevik
First, it's ambiguous whether or not Aristotle believed in the immortality of the soul, so it may not necessarily contradict Aristotle's position. Second, many professional philosophers such as Edward Feser and David S. Oderberg have argued that the immortality of the soul does not necessarily contradict hylemorphism. Third, you don't actually explain why the "Platonic" additions undermine Aquinas' overall Aristotelianism.

Let us imagine the place where St. Thomas was in: there are serious philosophical arguments for hylemorphism, and there are serious arguments for the immortality of the soul. If a man were to find both sorts of arguments convincing, then you should acknowledge that he could have good philosophical reasons for thinking that there must be some way to reconcile the two theses. That's the position St. Thomas found himself in.

I'd like to hear your actual reasoning as to how the immateriality of the soul contradicts Aristotelian ontology. I mean, not every philosopher can see the full ramifications of their own philosophy. Perhaps Aristotle could've agreed with St. Thomas on this point, had they ever gotten around to talking with one another.
I don't believe the arguments for the immortality of the soul are convincing.

I think the undermining comes from having human souls stand out as unique phenomena in an otherwise consistent system.
One of the problems I had trying to make sense of Thomism (for example, by reading Feser) is that all the key words seem to mean something different from what they mean in normal-people English. "Form" being one of the worst offenders.

That said, it would be helpful if @worm that walks , who joined the server only this week, would tell us a bit about where he is coming from, belief-wise.
Reading between the lines so far, I think he's someone who doesn't believe in a nonphysical part of human nature.
So... @worm that walks what do you believe happens to people when they die?
You are correct. I think when we die, we actually die. Cease to be. Kaput. If there is going to be a resurrection it will need to be actually miraculous, because things that are dead have ceased to be.
An addendum to my post yesterday, an argument for hylemorphic dualism.
  1. Hylemorphism is true.
  2. So the human soul is the form of the body. (From 1)
  3. But the human soul engages in immaterial operations.
  4. Agere sequitur esse: whatever operates I-ly must be (exist) I-ly.
  5. So the human soul, qua executing immaterial operations, exists immaterially. (From 3 and 4)
  6. So the form of the body, qua executing immaterial operations, exists immaterially. (From 2 and 5)
Premise 1 is true if you accept Aristotle's division of all material objects into matter and form. Premise 3 is true if you accept that the human soul is capable of interacting with universals. And premise 4 is true because what denying it involves a denial of the principle of sufficient reason, for if an effect could go beyond its total efficient cause, then the part of the effect that went beyond it would have no explanation and be unintelligible.

Even if this isn't an argument Aristotle would've made, even if this is something original to St. Thomas due to his Platonic views, there's nothing about this that necessarily undermines Aristotelian ontology. In order to prove that, you'd have to show that the conclusion is manifestly self-contradictory, which I don't think you can do.
There is very much something that undermines Aristotelian ontology! Namely the existence of immaterial, transcendent universals. Aristotle held forms and their properties exist only when instantiated.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
You are correct. I think when we die, we actually die. Cease to be. Kaput.

Why do you believe that?

If there is going to be a resurrection it will need to be actually miraculous, because things that are dead have ceased to be.

Resurrection, reconstitution of a person who's unity of body and soul has been split by bodily death, is something God does. It's not a thing humans can innately do themselves.

There is very much something that undermines Aristotelian ontology! Namely the existence of immaterial, transcendent universals. Aristotle held forms and their properties exist only when instantiated.


I personally think that confusing ideas and concepts with really-existing things in the universe outside of one's head is a case of muddled thinking.
 

worm that walks

Sexual Bolshevik
Why do you believe that?
There doesn't seem to be any reason to doubt it.

Resurrection, reconstitution of a person who's unity of body and soul has been split by bodily death, is something God does. It's not a thing humans can innately do themselves.
Sure, but I don't think there is any reason to think souls continue to exist without their bodies, any more than bodies continue to exist without their souls.

I personally think that confusing ideas and concepts with really-existing things in the universe outside of one's head is a case of muddled thinking.
Agreed.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
There doesn't seem to be any reason to doubt it.

I was asking you to tell me your reasons for believing it.

Sure, but I don't think there is any reason to think souls continue to exist without their bodies, any more than bodies continue to exist without their souls.

A good thing we don't actually live in a world where living beings simply blink out of existence the moment they die - there'd be nothing for us to eat!

Under the right conditions, dead bodies can persist for thousands of years, at least. Insects preserved in amber. People buried in ancient tombs. The remains, well... remain.
Why assume the soul can't?
 

worm that walks

Sexual Bolshevik
I was asking you to tell me your reasons for believing it.



A good thing we don't actually live in a world where living beings simply blink out of existence the moment they die - there'd be nothing for us to eat!

Under the right conditions, dead bodies can persist for thousands of years, at least. Insects preserved in amber. People buried in ancient tombs. The remains, well... remain.
Why assume the soul can't?
What more reason is needed than the fact dead people aren't around anymore?

Corpses remain in existence. Bodies don't. A body is a living thing with a substantial form, a corpse isn't. The body ceases to be when it dies.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
What more reason is needed than the fact dead people aren't around anymore?

Corpses remain in existence. Bodies don't. A body is a living thing with a substantial form, a corpse isn't. The body ceases to be when it dies.

At this point you are simply restating your beliefs as if they were evidence for themselves.
 

worm that walks

Sexual Bolshevik
At this point you are simply restating your beliefs as if they were evidence for themselves.
No, in the first case I'm explaining why I think death being the end of human existence is prima facie correct. I don't see any reason to doubt that the corpses of dead people are all that are left after their death. I think dounting that would require some additional evidence.

In the second I'm explaining them because you seemed not to understand what I meant by bodies not continuing to exist.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
No, in the first case I'm explaining why I think death being the end of human existence is prima facie correct. I don't see any reason to doubt that the corpses of dead people are all that are left after their death. I think dounting that would require some additional evidence.

In the second I'm explaining them because you seemed not to understand what I meant by bodies not continuing to exist.

No, you don't get to just declare your opinion on it as the default.

humeAndAvicenna.png
 
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Deleted member 88

Guest
Souls existing and going to Heaven/Hell strikes me as empirically unverifiable. As both of these locations aren’t within the boundaries of science/the natural world? Sure if your a materialist, you’ll argue the soul is simply an emergent property of the complex functions of the brain-but this doesn’t one disprove the soul existing, and two doesn’t show that existence ceases to be. It’s a logical step yes, if but only so if materialism were true. I’ve been to funerals, and the body is there to see. It’s not moving, breathing, there is no “breath of life”. It’s just a husk.

The whole point of the resurrection is that the body is infused with life again, and the soul is restored to the body.
 

worm that walks

Sexual Bolshevik
No, you don't get to just declare your opinion on it as the default.

humeAndAvicenna.png
I mean in the absence of any evidence to the contrary I'm pretty sure I do. Your claiming that there is something unverifiable going on. Pretty sure the burden of proof is on you. I can point to a nonfunctional body as evidence of whatever animating principle it possessed being dependent on the body being alive. You are making the positive claim that this principle goes someplace else, which I see no reason to believe.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
You are making the positive claim that this principle goes someplace else, which I see no reason to believe.

And you are making the positive claim that something that exists, which we cannot see except by its effects, ceases to exist.
 

worm that walks

Sexual Bolshevik
And you are making the positive claim that something that exists, which we cannot see except by its effects, ceases to exist.
Yeah. Our evidence for their being life in something is that it is alive. When it stops being alive, the life is gone. You claim it goes to some invisible other place. I don't see any grounds to think so.
 
D

Deleted member 88

Guest
Yeah. Our evidence for their being life in something is that it is alive. When it stops being alive, the life is gone. You claim it goes to some invisible other place. I don't see any grounds to think so.
Ehrm? That other place is kind of beyond the reach of empiricism?
 

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