Fictional "Villains" Who Did Nothing Wrong Thread

Sobek

Disgusting Scalie
I am a bit late but rhe FO4 Bos is literally the worst out of all the games. Sorry but it's true.

They are shitting over the "must secure tech" of the oldschool BoS and outcasts by blowing up the Institute instead of capturing it. I would understand if they had no choice but the PC literally is about to have the place handed to him on a silver platter. Just take a moment to work out a decent infiltration and Maxson can just remote destroy the synths he hates so much.

Then there is the worse part of the complete corruption of FO3 Lyons Elder ideals. They are no longer trying ro rebuild the USA or something like it like he was but just straight up a Fascist (and I don't use that word lightly) military taking over. They have become a bit too similar to the FO2 Enclave for my tastes, and unlike them they are perfectly willing to use wastelander fodder to make themselves into the new nobility of this empire.

Finally there is the despicable lack of self awareness ans petty shit with wanting to destroy the Minutemen. I can understand the Railroad with their Synth fetish and the Institute when they had no choice, but the Minutemen were pretty much a perfect chance to bolster their ranks with locals to serve as police and light troops. Preston would likely help the settlements ans help coordinate things. But the Minutemen aren't True Believers are they? They don't have the undying loyalty to Fearless Leader Elder Maxson. So they need to go.

In conclusion fuck the FO4 BoS, fuck the Railroad and fuck the Institute for thinking giving the janitor robot self aware human like A.I. was in any way needed at all. Preston Gravey was the only sane man in the Commonwealth and in my head cannon he is Washington 2 "This time I am brown" who could have single handedly led a resurgence of civilization in Boston with his Minutemen if Bethesda writers weren't brainlets who made him give up command to some pre-war moron who can't even be bothered to run the organization on a 20hr work week much less full time and with propper care.
 

Arlos

Sad Monarchist
In conclusion fuck the FO4 BoS, fuck the Railroad and fuck the Institute for thinking giving the janitor robot self aware human like A.I. was in any way needed at all. Preston Gravey was the only sane man in the Commonwealth and in my head cannon he is Washington 2 "This time I am brown" who could have single handedly led a resurgence of civilization in Boston with his Minutemen if Bethesda writers weren't brainlets who made him give up command to some pre-war moron who can't even be bothered to run the organization on a 20hr work week much less full time and with propper care.
Tbf, the person he hand the minutemen to is a murder machine capable of tearing through entire factions in the wasteland on his lonesome in mythical feat of arms (like basically every Fallout MC) with ungodly charisma, and he’s also supposedly a pre-war soldier/officer, though he never make use of it to improve minutemen training/organisation…

The things that really bummed me out is how the Lone wanderer basically went off on his own and let that brat Maxson make a mess of everything he helped build…
 

Basileus_Komnenos

Imperator Romanorum Βασιλεύς των Ρωμαίων
In conclusion fuck the FO4 BoS, fuck the Railroad and fuck the Institute for thinking giving the janitor robot self aware human like A.I. was in any way needed at all.
For all their talk about their superiority in terms of knowledge and technology, the Institute is pretty dumb to be honest. They could easily use Synth technology to functionally become immortal. Just implant the brain (which is the seat of consciousness) into a new Synth body modeled after the original one and voila, you can now extend your life many years.

Imagine what Mr. House would so with such technology. He'd probably be overjoyed. Though with his centuries in isolation, he would likely have his brain placed in a new body, have that sealed while having a remotely controlled synth body to interact the general public in New Vegas in an official capacity.
 

Robovski

Well-known member
For all their talk about their superiority in terms of knowledge and technology, the Institute is pretty dumb to be honest. They could easily use Synth technology to functionally become immortal. Just implant the brain (which is the seat of consciousness) into a new Synth body modeled after the original one and voila, you can now extend your life many years.

Imagine what Mr. House would so with such technology. He'd probably be overjoyed. Though with his centuries in isolation, he would likely have his brain placed in a new body, have that sealed while having a remotely controlled synth body to interact the general public in New Vegas in an official capacity.

The Institute is at best, hopelessly niave in developing fully sapient synths who are esentailly stronger, faster, and smarter than typical humans and somehow thinking that is not a threat to all of human existance. And you are correct, they could place brains in those bodies, it would be a superior choice to the Robco brain in a jar solution cannon in the series but without the main limitations and drawbacks. This is never properly considered and explored because Bethesda.
 
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Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
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Obozny
I am a bit late but rhe FO4 Bos is literally the worst out of all the games. Sorry but it's true.

It is in fact not true.

They are shitting over the "must secure tech" of the oldschool BoS and outcasts by blowing up the Institute instead of capturing it. I would understand if they had no choice but the PC literally is about to have the place handed to him on a silver platter. Just take a moment to work out a decent infiltration and Maxson can just remote destroy the synths he hates so much.

Yes, and? The brotherhood have always decided that some technology isn't worth holding onto (FEV being the big example), it's not implausible that they would do so here, given the clear ethical issues with synths and the lack of other worthwhile technologies.

Then there is the worse part of the complete corruption of FO3 Lyons Elder ideals. They are no longer trying ro rebuild the USA or something like it like he was but just straight up a Fascist (and I don't use that word lightly) military taking over. They have become a bit too similar to the FO2 Enclave for my tastes, and unlike them they are perfectly willing to use wastelander fodder to make themselves into the new nobility of this empire.

Lyons wasn't trying to rebuild the US or anything like it, he was just trying to "do the right thing" al the time with no wider goal. That's certainly noble, but it's not a surprise his successors decided to modify that philosophy with a more pragmatic bent. Helping people is all well and good, but you also have to look out for your own interests (like Lyons failed to do, constantly bleeding men and material in a losing war against the super mutants he undertook to protect the peopleof the wasteland).

As for Maxon's brotherhood, they're not taking over. They're an expeditionary force meant to go in, deal with the Institute, and then leave, they're not intending to make a permanent presence in the commonwealth. They have likely taken over DC (we don't have a clear picture of the capital wasteland, as usual for Bethesda), however given that many of thier recruits are from the DC wasteland I find it unlikely that it's a particularly harsh or unjust rule.

Finally there is the despicable lack of self awareness ans petty shit with wanting to destroy the Minutemen. I can understand the Railroad with their Synth fetish and the Institute when they had no choice, but the Minutemen were pretty much a perfect chance to bolster their ranks with locals to serve as police and light troops. Preston would likely help the settlements ans help coordinate things. But the Minutemen aren't True Believers are they? They don't have the undying loyalty to Fearless Leader Elder Maxson. So they need to go.

This is an outright lie. The Brotherhood do not turn on the Minutemen at any point in the game, it is outright impossible for them to initiate hostilities. The only way the brotherhood and Minutemen end up at war is if you, as the leader of the Minutemen, intentionally declare war on them without provocativation in the quest "With Our Powers Combined" and fire on the prydwyn. Otherwise, they'll remain friendly.

The brotherhood do look down on the Minutemen, but that's the standard "anyone not wearing power armor isn't a real soldier and will just get in the way of us, the only real soldiers" brotherhood arrogance that every branch of the brotherhood under every leader displays. Even Lyons.
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
The institute's tech was almost exclusively retarded and harmful shit with almost no upsides. Like, there's the FEV, which given the BoS was literally started by going rogue over disgust with FEV trials, they're not going to want to touch. The synths the BoS has ideological issues with... and when synths break they can start murdering everyone nearby. And their institute laser guns are trash.

Also Pressed In Gravy's minutemen were not exactly doing super hot until the SS showed up, and they never get off the ground unless the SS makes it happen.
 

Basileus_Komnenos

Imperator Romanorum Βασιλεύς των Ρωμαίων
Also Pressed In Gravy's minutemen were not exactly doing super hot until the SS showed up, and they never get off the ground unless the SS makes it happen.
Preston Garvey: Hey General another settlement needs your help.

This is an outright lie. The Brotherhood do not turn on the Minutemen at any point in the game, it is outright impossible for them to initiate hostilities. The only way the brotherhood and Minutemen end up at war is if you, as the leader of the Minutemen, intentionally declare war on them without provocativation in the quest "With Our Powers Combined" and fire on the prydwyn. Otherwise, they'll remain friendly.
My issue with Maxon is that he's way too dogmatic to the point of stupidity. The pragmatic choice for his faction would be to capture institute technology and repurpose it to help supplement them.

Then again as Mr House notes, the BOS is not known for collecting Autodocs but rather shiny suits of power armor. Their whole faction essentially while not evil, larps with their power armor as though they were the knights of yore. The Brotherhood's American Ancestor's would be horrified at how they lost their American heritage in favor of that of knights.
 

What's the sitch?

Well-known member
While not strictly a villain, I view Mr.House as the "goodchoice/best of selectable endings" for Fall out New Vegas.

NCR is just more inneffective bureaucratic nonsense, borderline. While not really "evil" they are basically taxation without representation at best and not capable of defending the people they claim are part of their territories/citizens.

Ceasars legion. Tries to pass itself off as being (Roman?) but is just a bunch of murdering slavers that are risky to even deal with and are liable to backstab you if convenient. If Ceasar dies, the veneer of civility and ethics totally falls apart and they go full raider.


House, has a real plan(and has the tech and understanding)) to rebuild society and take back the world. Yes he will basically be the "King" if the Vegas he has running serves as a sample of what he can offer compared to living in the "wilds"/"other factions" then it is really a no brainer. Yes it is "bad" compared to theoretical freedom we have in real world modern day(maybe)(we used to have kings) the safety of not dealing with radiation, unclean food, water, hostile mutants, raiders, aliens and god knows what else seems like a decent trade.


Honestly the only thing that keeps me from whole heartedly following him is his 0 tolerance policy on the brotherhood of steel since he rightly views that they will just be his enemies due to his tech.
But considering that if you wander into their territory by accident they will bomb collar you and put you under various trials, they do not have too much sympathy on my part.
 
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LindyAF

Well-known member
My issue with Maxon is that he's way too dogmatic to the point of stupidity. The pragmatic choice for his faction would be to capture institute technology and repurpose it to help supplement them.

Then again as Mr House notes, the BOS is not known for collecting Autodocs but rather shiny suits of power armor. Their whole faction essentially while not evil, larps with their power armor as though they were the knights of yore. The Brotherhood's American Ancestor's would be horrified at how they lost their American heritage in favor of that of knights.

They are okay with capturing or utilizing an institute scientist to get Liberty Prime functional again, and reprogramming PAM. IMO this was just that all the known institute tech was either seriously incompatible with brotherhood philosophy, stupidly and pointlessly evil, useless, or a combination thereof. Like yeah they have some better crops or something, but anyone else only learns about it working with the institute.

Eh... the Brotherhood's American ancestors made the decision to explicitly and deliberately break from the conception of "America" both because they viewed as non-viable post-War and because the Brotherhood is the descendent of American servicemen... who revolted against the government immediately pre-War over disgust with the government's experiments with FEV.

IMO the potential issue with the Brotherhood is that by at least by Fallout New Vegas / Fallout 4 era their mission of preserving tech and knowledge as a seed for the rebirth of civilization is basically done. People are putting civilizations together again, and it seems like the Brotherhood has outlived it's original purpose of preserving technology and civilization without reorienting it's official purpose towards rebuilding or towards anything else. IMO Maxson in Fallout 4 may or may not have moved past that de facto (depends on what's happening in DC), but they haven't done so officially.
 
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Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
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My issue with Maxon is that he's way too dogmatic to the point of stupidity. The pragmatic choice for his faction would be to capture institute technology and repurpose it to help supplement them.

Then again as Mr House notes, the BOS is not known for collecting Autodocs but rather shiny suits of power armor. Their whole faction essentially while not evil, larps with their power armor as though they were the knights of yore. The Brotherhood's American Ancestor's would be horrified at how they lost their American heritage in favor of that of knights.

This presumes the Institute has technology worth capturing and repurposing. I'm not convinced they do.

House, has a real plan(and has the tech and understanding)) to rebuild society and take back the world. Yes he will basically be the "King" if the Vegas he has running serves as a sample of what he can offer compared to living in the "wilds"/"other factions" then it is really a no brainer. Yes it is "bad" compared to theoretical freedom we have in real world modern day(maybe)(we used to have kings) the safety of not dealing with radiation, unclean food, water, hostile mutants, raiders, aliens and god knows what else seems like a decent trade.

House has a plan, yes. The problem is, it's a stupid, stupid plan, and he has just that, a plan. He doesn't have the texh, and he doesn't have the resources.

Bear in mind, House's last attempt to rebuild the wasteland ended up with every single tribe he'd recruited deciding to backstab him, and he had no idea it was happening (nor does the added capability of the platinum chip do anything to prevent this from happening again). We have plenty of reason to distrust his capacity as a statemen and leader already.

Now, onto the "plan". House's plan was to declare independence and seize control of the entire Mojave with his robots, and then use that as a stepping stone to rebuild industry and go into space. This is a bad plan.

First off, this plan involves betraying the NCR and seizing the Dam, and selling it's resources back them at an exorbitant price. House thinks they'll go for it because they're war weary, but we have no reason to think that's correct. The NCR is already rather war weary in regards to their fight with the brotherhood but are still determined to hunt them down and finish the war, we have to reason to assume they won't do the same to him. And the brotherhood is at this time just a nuisance, the NCR considers the Dam a vital resource critical to their nation's future, they'll stop at nothing to take it back.

And House's army cannot match the NCR in the long run. His robots are individually superior, but that's it. He's outnumbered, ourmanned in the long run (he can't replace loses nearly as easily, as building a replacement securitron requires resources and trained manpower he doesn't have), and even worse, are logistical tied to Vegas. Robots need repairs, replacement parts, regular maintenance, etc, and House doesn't have the personal to do that in the field (and likely wouldn't trust people to do that anyway), they'll have to return the the bunker regularly, unless he wants his army to grind itself to dust trying to chase down the NCR. He's stuck on the defensive and forced to try and hold certain key positions, and the NCR will figure that out quickly. The second they take out the bunker, which will be trivially easy, he's toast.


But he, what's one glaring, fatal mistake in an otherwise functional plan, right?.....oh, no, it's do much worse than that.

Seemingly not content with pissing off everyone outside the Mojave, House elects to make enemies of everyone in the Mojave as well via his repressive, authoritarian rule and his conquest of every town in the region. On the Strip, he at least had a plausible claim to the area, since he saved it from the bombs. But what right dies he have to Goodsprings, or Novac? None whatsoever, but he seizes control of them anyway, and rules with a heavy hand. That attitude is going to inspire further resistance, which as mentioned, is a bad idea when you can't withstand attrition and your army has a single centralized point of failure that anyone with a stealth boy and some satchel charges can ruin. House's tactics ensure he'll be up to his eyeballs in insurgents in short order. Normally, that's bad. When every lost skirmish means the enemy now has dozens of missiles and grenade they seize from your fallen troops, it's much worse, and when those insurgents have outside support from, say, the biggest, richest, most industrialized power in the wastes that hates your guts.....yeah, really, really not good.

But ok, let's say House manages to keep the losses to a minimum and is able to maintain sufficient control to operate uninterrupted. His long term goal is to rebuild industry and launch mankind into the stars. That's a tall order. He'll need lot's of resources and raw materials, and he'd better hope he can find them in the Mojave because there's no chance he can buy them from the NCR, if we're insanely generous to House we can say he gets them to pay for water and power but there's zero chance that they won't slap him with a massive embargo.

Let's say he finds what he needs. Securitrons ain't all that good at mining, or processing raw materials, or building advanced technology. He needs people for that, and for most tasks, educated ones (even if everything is just being made from blueprints and he doesn't have to design anything, he'll still need people to operate equipment, troubleshoot, repair, maintain, secedule work, coordinate operations, manage shifts, manage training, etc). Right now he has no such workforce. He used to, in vault 34, but he destroyed that community, destroyed the vault, and scattered its residents to the four winds. So he's actually sabotaged his own long term goals for no reason there, and will have to build one from scratch, along with all the supporting infrastructure. Oh, and also the Omertas staged an surprise WW1 reenactment on the strip and so many of the people he did have working for him already are now dead.

Oh, and he's going to have to spend a fair amount of time reinventing the wheel as well. House no doubt knows a lot, and can teach a lot, but there's no way he's mastered every field of science that's required for spaceflight, and again he's on his own here, he can't get help from the NCR. Is there an intact library stuffed with books about metallurgy, metalworking, forge design, etc somewhere in the Mojave? No? Then good luck relearning how to make advanced alloys and tooling from scratch.


Now, try doing that with the NCR preping for a campaign to retake the dam and refusing to trade with you, an ongoing insurgency sabotaging your development (an insurgenty thar almost certainly includes the survivors from the Brotherhood of Steel who are very interested in avenging thier fallen brothers and sisters and have the firepower to do it), and your control is utterly dependent on a single, vulnerable facility that you cannot hide and that all your enemies will quickly learn of.

House says he'll have the tech development sector up and running in 20 years and colony ships launched in 100. If he's still alive in 20 years it'll be a miracle, and in a hundred, he might have built enough that his society has almost caught up with where the NCR was 100 years ago, or at least he woyld have if not for the fact someone will certainly have killed him by then.
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
House had a plan yes, but it was a stupid plan and the only reason he got as far as he did was because he had so many Outside Context advantages on his side that he could survive despite having such a stupid plan. He was operating on a paradigm which died with the Great War, of wealth equaling power, where getting everyone gambling at his casinos in his recreation of prewar Vegas meant he'd get their wealth and consequentially, have power over them. While as a concept, wealth relies on stable civilization. At best he could protect his own territory with Securitrons to prevent someone from simply taking everything he owned, but he didn't have enough killbots to maintain a monopoly of force everywhere, so he was dependent upon everyone else maintaining stability and sufficiently sophisticated civilizations such to have resources to spare to gamble with. All while ignoring his actual assets of value, the Securitrons. If he had the slightest trace of common sense, he'd have essentially recreated feudalism, renting out the right to live in his territory, under the protection of his robot army, and became the nucleus of a rebuilding civilization.
 

ParadiseLost

Well-known member
For those of us that haven't played it, could you elucidate?

Yorinobu murdering his father is the inciting incident of Cyberpunk 2077, and because you end up teaming up with Takemura, you are working against Yorinobu in the early part of Cyberpunk 2077.

However, its revealed between the various endings that Yorinobu is working to actually bring down Arasaka from the inside; he basically has the same goal as Johnny Silverhand.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Actually, House's 'plan' in New Vegas is, essentially, practically two centuries of 'improv' planning, not his actual plan. He was, at this point, doing a lot of the stuff on the fly/seat of his pants.

What he had compared to the other options was a long-term goal and the drive to achieve that goal.
 

Urabrask Revealed

Let them go.
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Actually, House's 'plan' in New Vegas is, essentially, practically two centuries of 'improv' planning, not his actual plan. He was, at this point, doing a lot of the stuff on the fly/seat of his pants.

What he had compared to the other options was a long-term goal and the drive to achieve that goal.
Ok, but the problem that a lot of the stuff he is going to need aren't there right now. Where're the engineers? Where's the platform for his rockets going to be? Where's the food going to come from?
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Ok, but the problem that a lot of the stuff he is going to need aren't there right now. Where're the engineers? Where's the platform for his rockets going to be? Where's the food going to come from?
Thing is, he's going to have a mostly robotic workforce instead of the usual meatbags. Independent Securitrons are surprisingly intelligent, meaning that they can easily replace the engineers overall. One of the quests that get slotted to you (from either the nearby town or, if you ignored it, House) is clearing out REPCONN of Ghouls and House doesn't give a fuck on how you do it.
 

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