LindyAF
Well-known member
As the Westerlands fight a desperate, losing battle agains the Numenorian armies, Tywin finds a certain ring.
Or just in general - add Sauron or Morgoth to the bad guys, or make the Numenorians the bad guys.
As the Westerlands fight a desperate, losing battle agains the Numenorian armies, Tywin finds a certain ring.
Or just in general - add Sauron or Morgoth to the bad guys, or make the Numenorians the bad guys.
"I come to genocide your people and literally let them be raped by Orangutans".
I thought them being the bad guys were inferred by that.
Though Tywin gaining support from a Dragon or a Balrog....hmm
novussa
Active member
tywin could get support from the faithul if you really want to after all faithul and kings men have lots of reason to hate eatch other.
Or the ice fairies since the "genocide the userers" is a pretext for then to invade and eventually March on the lands beyond the wall with intent to exterminate the horrors that live up there.
Edit- either way I won't do anything with this until I get to "season two" of my SG1 reboot.
LindyAF
Well-known member
The issue is with them being the bad guys is them being set up as primarily in conflict with the traditional ASOIAF bad guys and everyone's least favorite character Joffrey, and attacking over an atrocity committed by those traditional bad guys against a group that people root for. It lends itself to stomp fic IMO rather than "villainous Numenorian invasion." Plenty of stomp fics have the stompers do some pretty extreme stuff to the guys getting stomped.
I was also thinking - you know what was in the Far North on Middle Earth? Utumno.
You can have an antagonist vs antagonist story though. Even in a stomp fic, one can always do a monkeys paw type deal.
Atrocities for catharsis isn't my bag.
I was thinking the same thing! Having the Others be some leftover from the ruins of utumno. Then maybe something worse crawling out to relieve them.
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LindyAF
Well-known member
So while there are a couple Robb-centered fics, most of the ones that have him be successful have him just marrying Margaery and claiming the Iron Throne. I think it would be cool to see a fic where the northern secessionist 'cause won out, and it would also be interesting to see that as a goal that's worked towards politically by Robb before actual war breaks out. I'd also like to see a fic that treats the Iron Islands in more positive light - it's kind of interesting to me that despite the North and the Iron Islands having similar cultural differences from the South, the fandom opinion on them is so different.
For setup, let's say Robert's injury to the boar happens earlier - just after Catelyn takes Tyrion hostage. Robert has just been injured and is comatose and unresponsive when the news reaches King's landing, and before Eddard is aware of what's happened, Jaime and his men attack. There's a brief power struggle over who will be regent, and as in canon, Ned loses. With Robert unconscious, the Lannisters have Cersei declared Regent and Ned imprisoned. Catelyn loses Tyrion, as before, and Jaime marches on Riverrun, as before.
With everyone thinking Robert's death is just a matter of time, it becoming clear that there will be no relief for the Riverlands from the Westerlands attack coming from the crown, Robb marches to the Riverlands to support them to force Eddard's freedom. He unites his bannermen, and agrees to a marriage contract in order to get through The Twins. He wins the decisive battles against Jaime's army, eventually taking him prisoner. Basically just canon, except Robert is still alive. Renly marries Margaery and starts mobilizing the Reach and Stormlands. However, without Joffrey executing Ned, but Jaime captured, and Robert still alive, everyone kind of stops - the Starks and the Lannisters both hold too valuable hostages for further open conflict right now, and nobody wants to go around declaring themselves King before Robert dies.
Then, Robert recovers. He pardons Ned, but Ned just wants out of the capital, and resigns as Hand. Then he and his remaining men are murdered. Without Roberts' death, the realm doesn't fully collapse (yet), but it's incredibly destabilized, with all-but open conflicts between Lord's Paramount. Arya is successfully returned, at a later point, but Sansa is stuck in the capitol (at first, she's kind of happy about this) - Robert is still in favor of matching her with Joffrey and she's not as badly treated as in canon while Robert is alive, although Robb and the North view her as a de-facto hostage.
Robert does not cope well at all with Ned's death and it isn't helped by Robb basically blaming him for it, torpedoing any possibility of the friendship Robert and Ned shared. He dials his self-destructive behaviors up to eleven, and his treatment of Robb and the North becomes schizophrenic - at once intensely guilty over Ned's death but at the same time extremely bitter at Robb for blaming him for it, and he's basically refusing to acknowledge what a state the whole realm is in and how the instant he dies there's going to be war.
Robb on the other hand is realizing that his families' political position has turned increasingly tenuous, with no reliable friendship from the throne, down two of the three allies his family had in the STAB alliance, and an heir to the throne who is now openly calling him a traitor and for his head on a pike, Robb has to learn to play the game of thrones with letters and daggers, as well as he does with the sword, if he's going to realize his dream of an independent North.
For setup, let's say Robert's injury to the boar happens earlier - just after Catelyn takes Tyrion hostage. Robert has just been injured and is comatose and unresponsive when the news reaches King's landing, and before Eddard is aware of what's happened, Jaime and his men attack. There's a brief power struggle over who will be regent, and as in canon, Ned loses. With Robert unconscious, the Lannisters have Cersei declared Regent and Ned imprisoned. Catelyn loses Tyrion, as before, and Jaime marches on Riverrun, as before.
With everyone thinking Robert's death is just a matter of time, it becoming clear that there will be no relief for the Riverlands from the Westerlands attack coming from the crown, Robb marches to the Riverlands to support them to force Eddard's freedom. He unites his bannermen, and agrees to a marriage contract in order to get through The Twins. He wins the decisive battles against Jaime's army, eventually taking him prisoner. Basically just canon, except Robert is still alive. Renly marries Margaery and starts mobilizing the Reach and Stormlands. However, without Joffrey executing Ned, but Jaime captured, and Robert still alive, everyone kind of stops - the Starks and the Lannisters both hold too valuable hostages for further open conflict right now, and nobody wants to go around declaring themselves King before Robert dies.
Then, Robert recovers. He pardons Ned, but Ned just wants out of the capital, and resigns as Hand. Then he and his remaining men are murdered. Without Roberts' death, the realm doesn't fully collapse (yet), but it's incredibly destabilized, with all-but open conflicts between Lord's Paramount. Arya is successfully returned, at a later point, but Sansa is stuck in the capitol (at first, she's kind of happy about this) - Robert is still in favor of matching her with Joffrey and she's not as badly treated as in canon while Robert is alive, although Robb and the North view her as a de-facto hostage.
Robert does not cope well at all with Ned's death and it isn't helped by Robb basically blaming him for it, torpedoing any possibility of the friendship Robert and Ned shared. He dials his self-destructive behaviors up to eleven, and his treatment of Robb and the North becomes schizophrenic - at once intensely guilty over Ned's death but at the same time extremely bitter at Robb for blaming him for it, and he's basically refusing to acknowledge what a state the whole realm is in and how the instant he dies there's going to be war.
Robb on the other hand is realizing that his families' political position has turned increasingly tenuous, with no reliable friendship from the throne, down two of the three allies his family had in the STAB alliance, and an heir to the throne who is now openly calling him a traitor and for his head on a pike, Robb has to learn to play the game of thrones with letters and daggers, as well as he does with the sword, if he's going to realize his dream of an independent North.
Except not really. If the North actually wants independence, it has been within their grasp since the Targaryen's lost their dragons.
A blocking force at Moat Cailin, especially once it has been properly rebuilt, and it becomes basically impossible for even the combined might of the rest of the Kingdoms to force the issue.
Some diplomacy with the Iron Islands to recognize the Lord Paramount as King of an independent Iron Isles along with an agreement to keep them nicely supplied with needed shipbuilding materials so long as the Ironborn raid south instead of North (i.e. the Westerlands and the Reach) is enough to basically secure the entire western flank of the North from any naval adventures and will keep the Reach and Westerlands tied up with the Ironborn threat - they always have to keep enough men at home to be a credible deterrent or the Ironborn will just raid them.
If the Vale tries to get uppity, the Starks can do what they did historically and just fund/support the mountain clans and First Men in the Vale to make life hell for the Andals. The North can't credibly conquer the Vale, but it can ensure that it goes up in flames is the Arryns march a substantial army outside the Vale.
Trying a substantial invasion via sea is a disaster waiting to happen. First you need to move most of the royal fleet along with all the needed transports to whatever port you are going to use as a base, then you need to seize White Harbor and get a large enough army to hold it landed before the North kicks you back out. Even once you manage to land that force, you are going to have to constantly ship in food stuffs and conquer a land mass larger than the rest of Westeros combined where every single native is unrelentingly hostile. Remember, this would be an Andal invasion of a First Men nation and unlike the Andals, the First Men think that whole chiviliary thing and fair fights are for idiots.
At the same time, enough forces have to be left behind to keep the Ironborn honest and to provide a blocking force in the Neck to prevent the North from flooding the South with hostile raiding parties with orders to rape and burn their way through the Riverlands and Crownlands. And if Dorne is being their usual restive self, then enough forces to keep them honest also have to be left behind.
The more interesting independent North idea is Ned Stark declaring himself King in the North immediately post Rebellion. Citing the fact that they bowed to the dragons and the dragons are no more, and more privately expressing disgust at how Robert and Jon reacted to the Lannister actions in King's Landing. A message left with the Daynes when he drops off Dawn, to be given to the Martells telling them that he plans to declare independence and that the North would look favorably on an independent Dorne - with one of the major reasons for his decision being disgust over what was done to Elia and her children, would probably be enough to get Dorne to declare independence as well.
Some words to Quellon Greyjoy and the Ironborn are just likely to declare themselves independent as well, and focus their raiding on the Westerlands and Reach while the North basically acts as their fence (selling timber and the like in exchange for the loot that the Ironborn took). If Quellon is smart, he cuts a deal with the Tyrells to crush the Westerlands with their help and the Tyrells invite Dorne to join them so the Martells can have their vengeance.
The Crownlands were already restive and not all that keen on a Baratheon king, if the boot is removed from their necks then they will rise in rebellion. And with the Westerlands on fire, Tywin has no choice but to take the Lannister host back home.
Does Jon Arryn try and hold things together? Is he willing to spend the Vales men like water to keep Robert on the throne? Or does he throw his hands up and declare himself King of Mountain and Vale once more?
And if the North and Vale have declared themselves independent, then the Riverlands aren't going to move; not when both Tully daughters are now Queens of those respective independent kingdoms. Most likely Hoster tries to grab off the whole of the Crownlands and declare himself King of the Trident or some such.
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As for your idea itself, it makes no real sense. If Ned is pardoned then Robert basically has to accept that the kids are bastards. Especially when his own best friend and Hand, a Lord Paramount known for his honor, is declaring it and Stannis and Renly both agree with him. And don't forget the allegations that Cersei killed Jon Arryn because he found out. If Robert is alive and "healthy" then Cersei, Jamie, and the three kids are all dead and Robert probably takes the opportunity to call Tywin's attack on the Riverlands rebellion just to wrap things up.
Everyone would take the opportunity to crush the Lannisters. Greyjoy would love royal impramature to raid the Westerlands, the North, Riverlands, the Vale, and Dorne all get their vengeance. The Tyrells get to make themselves the wealthiest house and throw down their biggest competitor, and position Renly as a potential heir.
That is why Robert was never going to leave that sickbed. Robert alive means the Lannisters are eradicated, and Westeros remains quasi stable (which doesn't serve Baelish's purposes). Robert dead means a Baratheon civil war because the Reach will NEVER accept Stannis on the throne and Renly is basically their puppet. On the other hand, Stannis is screwed because none of the Lords Paramount is going to support seating him.
Dorne would just declare independence given half a chance of getting away with it. Greyjoy was just itching to make himself a King again. The Vale might have followed Jon Arryn for Stannis, but they aren't going to involve themselves without an adult, respected, Arryn to lead them. The Riverlands can't make independence stick but as canon shows, they are willing to bow to Robb so they might just declare submit to the North; assuming that the North is willing to accept them.
Theoretically, you could see a Stark dynasty ruling over the North, Riverlands, Crownlands, and Vale relatively easily. All it really takes is a bit more brains from Balon Greyjoy and Robb honoring his Frey marriage.
Balon looks at the reality of Westeros and declares himself independent and sends the Iron Fleet reaving against the Westerlands while offering terms to the North (the North recognizes them as an independent Kingdom and the Ironborn don't raid the North for now).
Without Robb breaking the marriage pact there is no Red Wedding.
No Red Wedding means Joffrey is more likely than ever to do something extreme to Sansa, enough so that Baelish might just decide that it's time to bring her to the Vale. A Sansa - Harrold Hardyng wedding is a fairly easy political play.
Dorne independent, a Robb ruled kingdom made up of the North, Riverlands, Vale, and Crownlands, a Renly/Tyrell ruled kingdom made up of the Westerlands, Reach, and Stormlands, and an independent Iron Isles isn't hard to see at all.
If the Tyrells are caught between a Dornish army from the south, Ironborn raiding from the sea, and a Northern army on the Northern bank of the Blackwater Rush then its very easy to see them cutting their losses and getting a peace deal with the North and Dorne.
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The issue with Stannis is that he simply doesn't have, and can't really raise, an army. Even the Stormlands followed Renly until he used a shadow baby assassin to clear the way. The North will never support him over going independent. The Vale won't fight for him with their internal problems. The Reach will oppose him. Dorne and the Iron Isles will declare independence before supporting him. The Crownlands won't support him. The Westerlands damn well won't support him.
LindyAF
Well-known member
I don’t find the idea of a Ned era independent North super interesting because I don’t find Ned particularly interesting- IMO he’s a character that basically exists to get fridged for other characters story arcs.
Ned doesn’t know that Cersei’s kids are bastards. He doesn’t learn that until much, much later on in canon, and that’s only because IIRC Pycell’s accidentally shoves it in his face. With Robert’s injury happening earlier Ned has more important things to worry about and then he’s imprisoned. As far as Ned is concerned though, Joffrey’s the rightful heir, and he doesn’t intend to dispute it.
Stannis knows, but he doesn’t think he can convince Robert.
Then timing really works against you. The White Walkers and Daenerys push hard against Robb being able to be anything but a warlord constantly at war, and wars that he can't win.
I mean nothing going on in Westeros is going to have any impact on what Daenerys is up to, and she is going to land with dothraki, Unsullied, and dragons.
Dorne would side with her in a heartbeat, if nothing else she guarantees them vengeance against the Lannisters and Baratheons.
Once Daenerys sets foot on Westeros with dragons in the sky above her and an army at her back, the Tyrells and Reach will declare for her.
The Westerlands are fucked. The Ironborn are screwed if they try anything. The Vale is already in chaos and, again, can't hope to oppose dragons.
Robb will either bend the knee to the dragons once more or end up burned. He is not Jon Snow, the bastard son of Eddard Stark, heir of a fractured and destroyed family because there is nothing left. He is Robb Stark, trueborn son of Eddard Stark, the man who through down the Targaryen dynasty and has declared himself King in the North. He will kneel or he will burn.
Even ignoring dragons, Robb starts his reign with a wilding army coming south with tales of the dead rising behind them. At a time when he needs to keep armies in the Riverlands to secure that part of his kingdom and when he has basically zero chance of getting any southern allies.
If Ned doesn't move against Joffrey then Cersei, even at her worst, would never be fool enough to accuse him of plotting treason. Cersei moved against him because it was the only chance she had of saving her family, not because it was a move that she wanted to make or because it was a good idea.
Cersei is very aware of what happened the last time a King accused Lord Stark of treason.
Arrest Ned on charges of treason and it is practically guaranteed that Robb calls the banners and the North rides south with both the Riverlands and the Vale in full support. Dorne wouldn't lift a finger to save Joffrey's crown, the Iron Isles are irrelevant, and the Tyrells would find it so very easy to get the Stormlands and Reach riding to purge Cersei and her get.
Cersei moved because if she didn't then Ned Stark would have declared Stannis to be Robert's legitimate heir and denounce Cersei in public as a brother fucker with her children being bastards and not Roberts. Ned Stark making that statement publicly, in open court? With ravens to every lord in the whole of Westeros saying the same?
Well a Renly-Margaery marriage would be wrapped up with indecent haste before Renly declares his support for his brother (after all, Renly would be Stannis's heir). Dorne would see it as their chance to get revenge on the Lannisters and thus agree. The Riverlands and Vale could be expected to go along with Ned. And that is everyone who matters all moving to wipe out the Lannisters.
Ned Stark dead though before he can make those allegations publicly? Stannis will declare but without the backing of at least one Lord Paramount from the get go, it's just empty words. Dorne will simply sit quietly until they see the lay of the land. Renly will have the Reach and Stormlands behind his claim. The Westerlands will support Joffrey and hold Kings Landing. The Vale has its own internal issues and can probably be kept out of things.
Ned Stark dead means a multi sided civil war becomes basically inevitable, but that leaves the Lannisters in a (relatively) good position. Ned Stark alive and publicly supporting Stannis means that Stannis becomes king and everyone gangs up on the Lannisters to wipe them out.
Ned Stark accepting Joffrey as Robert's legitimate heir neatly neutralizes everyone else. The Riverlands won't move with the North and Westerlands united (assuming that Tully even wanted to), the Vale can't march without at least one of the North or Riverlands supporting it (especially not without a proper Arryn leading them). If the Reach tries to seat Renly then they will face the Lannister host coming south and the combined might of basically everyone else crossing the Blackwater. Not to mention the sure and certain knowledge that at least one of the major Reach houses will revolt against the Tyrells (Tywin would ensure that); and the Queen of Thorns is aware of all of this, so no the Reach won't move to seat Renly.
Stannis without a Lord Paramount's support is an irrelevance.
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If you kinda sorta want your idea to work, have Ned die to the wound he took from Jamie. Robb demands Jamie's head for treason (he did kill the Hand of the King after all) and Cersei gets Robert out of the picture for a time. Tywin puts an army in Kings Landing so when Robert awakes he finds himself in a position where he can't take Jamie's head even if he wanted to.
It's a lot easier to make that provide the result you want, but the question of Sansa and Arya yet remains. Because Robb will lead the North in purging the Riverlands of Lannister forces, put a blocking force on the Gold Tooth, and then march his army south to the Harrenhal-Darry line. His sisters will be returned alive and unharmed along with his father's remains and Ice before anything else is discussed, and if anything should happen to either of his sisters then his army will descend on the Crownlands and damn the consequences.
Renly, with Tyrell support, is just liable to declare that his brother is a Lannister hostage and so he must be freed. Reach sieges of Deep Den and Crakehall combined with the North sieging Golden Tooth bottles the Westerlands up, and getting the Ironborn to join in would be the work of a message basically.
In that situation, Tywin might just be willing to cut his losses and make a deal. In exchange for releasing the Stark girls, Ice, and Ned's remains to Robb; Robb will grant the Lannister army free passage to Golden Tooth/through the Riverlands.
Robb is declared King of the North and the Trident with the southern border being the Harrenhal-Darry line (with fortifications to rapidly be built there and everyone else in the south that an army can credibly get into the Riverlands), the Lannisters still hold Robert and have their army back in the Westerlands.
Stannis seizes the capital and Crownlands, maybe with some Storm Lord support. Renly/the Tyrells are dealing with too many fires at home to get north of the Blackwater before Stannis has it locked down.
Tywin pours good gold into getting some of the Storm Lords to declare for Stannis and funding the Florents to declare against the Tyrells. The Lannister force rides south and seizes that chunk of the reach between the Mandar and the sea, with Tywin's intent being to eventually declare himself King of the Rock.
Hmm, or maybe Greyjoys antics in the Westerlands fail with the Lannister fleet being a much tougher nut to crack than it was previously and Tywin leaves blocking forces in place to secure the Westerlands before using the bulk of his forces to crush the Iron Islands.
LindyAF
Well-known member
This is true and the highest level "Song of Ice and Fire" stuff would have to be butterflied away. Either Daenerys dies without getting dragons or never gets dragons or she decides that she can't even remember Westeros and just builds her own empire in Essos. The Others cut a deal with the Night's Watch involving shady shit happening at the Nightfort offscreen and don't invade.
The Wildling invasion isn't a huge threat, although it would require some support, but Stannis + the Night's Watch handle it canonically and Stannis has only kinda one Lord Paramountship.
Jaime canonically attacks Ned in the street, seriously injuring him, before Ned gets anywhere near figuring out about Cersei's kids. And Robert doesn't really do shit about it. He pardons Ned, but Jaime doesn't get punished at all. In part that's because Catelyn did kidnap Tyrion, and later takes him to her sister, who tries to have him put to death.
Here, that's what he's imprisoned for, basically. And we know what the result was - Robert pardoning him but not moving against the Lannisters.
Renly and the Tyrells angle before Robert's death was actually to get Robert to set Cersei aside and marry Margaery, IIRC, so if Cersei was exposed that's more likely.
Robert isn't dead in this scenario, so neither Stannis nor Renly can claim to be Robert's successor, because he isn't dead yet.
This isn't much different from what I'm suggesting, with the exception that Jaime isn't the one to kill Ned. I am suggesting that Robert gets put out of commission for a significant length of time, and the Lannisters would use that time period to solidify their control of the capitol.
I do agree that the Lannisters feel a bit to weak to be proper antagonists, though. The North, Riverlands, and Iron Islands make up three of the nine Lord Paramounships, but with Dorne and the Vale sitting stuff out as the did in WOT5K that leaves only four for the Lannisters, Renly, and Stannis, with the Lannisters and Renly splitting them two each and Renly getting what are probably the more powerful of the four.
However, none of the Lord Paramountships are monoliths, and the Lannisters would have allies contesting most of the Lord Paramountships. The Iron Islands would definitely be contested, with Euron attempting a coup.
Vale could also be contested, with the Lannisters possibly betrothing Myrcella to either Sweetrobin or betrothing Myrcella to Harry the Heir and backing a faction trying to oust Lysa and Sweetrobin. Another possibility here might be for Tywin having Jaime dismissed from the Kingsguard and then betrothing him to Lysa. Notable here that Lysa isn't actually necessarily anti-Lannister, her letter to Catelyn warning her about them was an attempt to redirect blame for her own murder of her husband Jon Arryn, and Lysa will do pretty much whatever Petyr says unless she thinks it harms Sweetrobin.
If that's not enough, one possibility is that Renly is murdered by the Lannisters, and Tywin reaches an understanding with the Tyrells that Joffrey's betrothal to Sansa will be broken, and that he'll wed Margaery instead. Alternatively, they make the same arrangement with another powerful Reach family in order to contest the region. Maybe a Hightower or a Redwyne. If Renly dies then the Lannisters try to have Tommen given the Stormlands, or failing that have Joffrey given Dragonstone. If Renly doesn't die, then they try to court some allies in the Stormlands and have Robert shore up Joffrey's position there.
Which is basically just meta Gary Stu issues. "Oh, we will just remove all of the big things that actually matter in the end." is really iffy.
There is a difference between Jaime getting away with his idiocy (which really was one of the weakest parts of the series) and Cersei using authority that she doesn't have to see the sitting Hand of the King arrested on trumped up charges. If Robert wakes up, he HAS to disavow Cersei and punish her and everyone who supported her harshly or he loses the throne. Anything less loses him the North, Riverlands, and Vale; which means Dorne and the Iron Islands both declare their independence.
Everyone remembers what happened last time the royal family took unjust liberties with a Stark and the Baratheon crown is nowhere near as generally stable as the Targaryen crown was (even at the height of Aery's madness).
Cersei isn't fool enough to risk Ned's arrest so long as Ned still thinks that Joffrey is Robert's heir.
That depends on the situation, and assumes that Robert is willing to marry her. The only influence that the Tyrells had in court was Renly, Robert never liked or trusted them. Stannis instantly becomes the crown prince if Cersei's kids are removed, and he will be adamantly opposed. If the kids aren't set aside then Robert is actually better off NOT remarrying. If he does then the succession becomes a potential flash point, while if Joff is still his heir then Tywin won't move. If all else fails, Robert can boot Jamie from the Kingsguard and send him off to Tywin (along with all the Red Cloaks in Kings Landing) and basically lock Cersei up in the Maidensvault with no influence or power.
If the kids are set aside then Stannis becomes Heir once more and Robert has a war to fight against the Westerlands before he even thinks about remarrying. Robert would lead from the front, battle/war is the one thing he truly loves, and Stannis would be left in King's Landing to run the damn place. Which means that Stannis is going to gut and rebuild the court and governmental apparatus of Kings Landing and so no Tyrell friends there.
The Tyrells cutting their losses with a marriage to Renly (who would be Stannis's heir until/unless he has a son) has a great deal to recommend it in that situation.
Robert alive and coherent makes your entire scenario farcical. There is zero way that 1) Cersei arrests Ned for treason, 2) Robert recovers and pardons Ned for that treason, 3) Cersei / the Lannisters escape punishment for that massive overreach, 4) the Stark girls remain in Kings Landing, and 5) somehow Robb becomes King in the North.
Robert, politically speaking, has to be seen to punish Cersei and whomever helped with her antics or he is done as king. No one will respect him at all and he will lose his biggest supporters. You think that the North would ever march for Robert after that? Or that the Riverlands will march to support Robert when the North opposes and Robert has allowed the Lannisters burning of the Riverlands to go unpunished?
And your suggestion is basically hand wave/ authorial fiat that ignores all of the relevant political and social realities. Cersei moving against Ned with Robert conveniently in the sick bed and while rumors fly across the seven kingdoms that Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn and Stannis has fled the capital? It's seen by everyone and their mother as an attempted Lannister coup.
Jaime killing Ned in a hotheaded duel? If Robert has Jaime killed then he makes an enemy of the Lannisters while Tywin has the closest army to the capital and the largest standing force inside Kings Landing is likely loyal to the Lannisters.
Robb will absolutely call the banners and ride south demanding Jaime's head, and will have the Riverlands at his back. The Vale won't move to stop him (indeed the reasonable assumption is that the Vale would ride in support of Robb). Dorne would love the opportunity to reduce the Lannisters so they likely through their political weight behind removing the Lannisters. The Tyrells and Stannis would both, likewise, be keen to see Lannister power reduced.
The best case for Robert is handing over Sansa, Arya, Ice, and Neds remains and getting Robb to head back North without any inconvenient questions about fealty being asked or answered. Basically, Robb is a king in all but name and everyone who matters barely even pretends the fiction that the North isn't independent.
Because hold the girls hostage and Robert loses. Dorne would take the opportunity to repudiate the Iron Throne. Greyjoy would declare his independence. The Tyrells and Renly would declare Robert a Lannister puppet and hostage, and Stannis would probably agree.
If you want to even remotely reasonably make a Robb as King in the North fic where he deals with politics more so than armies, your only realistic option is basically the following:
1) Jamie kills Ned.
2) Tywin gets to Kings Landing with an army first (probably pulling forces from the Riverlands as they are the closest) and basically takes Robert prisoner.
3) Renly camps a Stormlands army on the south bank of the Blackwater echoing the North's calls for justice and demanding Jamie's head, and calling Tywin a usurper to probably. The Tyrells start sieging the Westerlands and reinforcing Renly.
4) To remain a player in the game, Baelish gets the Vale to support the calls but publicly calls for Stannis to be recognized as Regent until such time as his brother is free and determined to be able to make his own decisions. Baelish probably slow rolls the Vale mobilization as much as possible.
5) Greyjoy declares himself King and starts attacking the Westerlands.
6) Dorne might not declare for anybody or independence but is very much anti-Lannister and all for screwing them over.
7) Seeing his position as untenable, Tywin cuts a deal with Robb and hands over the Stark girls, Ice, and Ned's remains along with probably a very hefty chunk of gold in exchange for getting his army and Robert (and whatever he can pull from King's Landing) safely through the Riverlands and back into the Westerlands via the Gold Tooth.
8) Robb declares himself King of the North and the Trident and publicly washes his hands of the whole mess with the South/Iron Throne. He secures his southern borders at key choke points and lets everyone else fight it out.
9) Stannis gets Kings Landing first. Maybe Tywin does a deal with Baelish to ensure the timing works out and Tully relations are traded on to get the Vale's forces into the Crownlands to secure them properly for Stannis.
10) Once back in the Westerlands, Tywin gives up the Iron Throne as a bad job, kills Robert, and declares himself King of the Rock.
11) Tywin offers Lannister gold (through intermediaries) to get people in the Reach, Stormlands, and Crownlands declaring for Renly/Stannis. Especially to get the Florents to declare for Stannis and condemn the Tyrells for supporting the usurper Renly.
12) Once the Baratheon civil war looks properly started, the Lannister army moves south and grabs off the chunk of land between the Mandar and the sea.
The end result is Robb as King in the North/Riverlands, Greyjoy as King in the Iron Isles, Tywin as King in the Westerlands and part of the Reach, Renly/Tyrells as King in the Stormlands and most of the Reach, and Stannis as King of the Crownlands and Vale*. Perhaps with a betrothal between Shireen and Robin. Oh, and Dorne independent again as well. Maybe Dorne marrying Arianne to Aegon/Young Griff and supporting his claim to the throne.
Perhaps Varys ensures the story of how Baelish had Lysa poison Jon Arryn and that Robin is Baelish's son spreads and is believed so as to break the Vale off from Stannis. Renly moves into the Crownlands to contest the now weakened Stannis and so Dorne moves into the Reach/Stormlands and perhaps grabs off everything south of the Mandar and maybe even sacks Highgarden. Or perhaps Renly gets a case of the dead and the Tyrells agree to support Aegon in exchange for something or other.
No one would touch the Lannisters after the events you have laid out. Do so and you make an enemy of the North, the Riverlands, and Dorne at the least. Given the interests of Renly, Stannis, and the Tyrells you probably make an enemy of all of their factions as well.
Neither Baelish or Harry the Heir's supporters are going to be foolish enough to have their principal marry a Lannister.
And if Myrcella is still officially a Baratheon then her hand isn't going to buy armies. The best it would buy is neutrality from the Vale. They won't march to secure Joffrey's claim.
The Lannisters could absolutely be strong enough to be antagonists (although the whole point of a political story is that everyone is ally and enemy at the same time), you just need to dump the idea of them doing so with Robert still alive and actually ruling.
Tywin cutting his losses and trying to fracture the seven kingdoms so that he can be King of the Rock is entirely reasonable and has all kinds of play. Maybe he cuts a deal with the Tyrells to get the Redwyne fleet to help him conquer the Iron Isles in exchange for Tywin recognizing Mace or Renly or whomever as the King of the Stormlands and the Reach.
Or the Tyrells cut a deal with Dorne, the North, the Riverlands, and the Iron Isles. The Tyrells will let a Dornish army through to take their revenge on the Lannisters, with all the loot that they can carry off, and the same offered to the Ironborn. The Tyrells use those forces to conquer the Westerlands for them and sweep in to claim dominion over the Westerlands. They recognize Dorne and the North/Riverlands as independent Kingdoms in exchange for the same recognition. Maybe they offer the North/Riverlands that if they were to take the Crownlands then the Reach would make a coordinated move to grab off the Stormlands.
Remember that the Florents are tied hard to Stannis, the Hightower daughter is married to Mace Tyrell, and that the Queen of Thorns is a Redwyne by birth. None of the major Reach houses are fertile ground for Lannister supportive rebellion in this generation. The Lannisters best play is to try and split the Reach between Renly and Stannis supporting factions by propping up the Florents.
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In the circumstances, claims of minor children don't matter so much. What matters is who the armies are willing to fight for and support. Baelish can largely keep the Vale neutral or he can throw it behind the North or, perhaps, Stannis. What he can't do is have it actively support the Lannisters or Cersei's children. Try and the Vale lords would rebel.
The Stormlands won't support the Lannisters against Stannis to seat Joffrey, regardless of whether or not Tommen is nominally their rightful lord.
In canon, the death of Robb is what made everything else possible. Robb lacks any credible, adult/near adult heir or even a credible regent for Bran. That neutralized both the North and Riverlands as players or threats for the Lannisters to be immediately concerned about. Put a blocking force at the Trident and ensure Frey loyalty and the Vale is a non issue as well.
Renly dead breaks the Stormlands/Reach alliance as the Stormlands will follow Stannis while the Reach won't. And the Tyrells don't have any inherent issue with a Lannister king on the Iron Throne if his Queen is a Tyrell, but they do fear a Stannis seated on that throne.
Robb alive and Renly dead would likely see the Tyrells throwing in with the North. A betrothal between Bran and Margaery, mutual recognition as independent powers, and a joint agreement to crush their mutual foes works just fine. An agreement with Dorne and suddenly its a joint invasion of the Westerlands followed by the Tyrells moving on the Stormlands at the same time the North moves on the Crownlands.
When all is said and done, you have independent Dorne in the far south. The Tyrells rule the Westerlands, Reach, and Stormlands. The Starks rule the North, Riverlands, Crownlands, Vale (if they can swing it), and Iron Isles.
LindyAF
Well-known member
I mean I think that’s something I just disagree with you about with respect to fanfic. Like, I think it's perfectly fine for Worm fanfics to not worry about whether or not their alt-power or AU or divergence means that everyone dies in fifteen years during the Golden Morning, and I count Others as in the same category.
Daenerys is either guaranteed and guarded by fate as part of the conflict against them, or she's extremely fortunate, both in getting her dragons in the first place and in surviving despite spending a pretty long time very vulnerable. I think it's pretty realistic that in any divergence the specific chain of events that leads to Daenerys getting dragons doesn't happen exactly the same and so it doesn't happen.
So in canon Robert doesn't just let Jaime slide he pardons Ned - that means that Ned is accused of a crime and Robert views Ned as the party that needs a pardon. I also think Robert was canonically way more in bed with the Lannisters than you seem to think. Like, he named Jaime Warden of the East, was close to naming him Hand, and he was trying to arrange for fostering Sweetrobin in Casterly Rock.
Another big thing here is that Ned isn't the sitting hand of the king, either in my AU idea or in canon at this point. He resigned his office over the mess with Daenerys. Basically what happens is that Ned (injured from his fight with Jaime) hears that Robert is out of commission, believes it's an attempted Lannister coup (in canon, I'm pretty sure it wasn't, so it wouldn't be here either), and tries to resume his office as hand of the king (and therefore acting Regent), attempting to conceal that he resigned the office. The Lannisters, see that Ned's wife has kidnapped Tyrion, accused him of murder, and attempted to have him put to death, and that Ned is now trying to make himself Regent with Robert out of commission, and they in turn assume it's an attempted Stark coup. Who should actually legally speaking be Regent is fairly unclear - Robert would be fine with it being Ned, but legally speaking Ned has resigned the office of Hand of the King, so there is no sitting Hand. Legally speaking, it should probably be Renly (Master of Laws), but he's fled the city. Cersei and the Lannisters claim it's her, as Robert's wife and Joffrey (the heir's) mother, and she doesn't have precedent but she does have the army and the backing of more small council members.
Cersei doesn't believe Joffrey or her other children would be set aside here, but she does still have other motivations for opposing Ned - 1) she's worried about Jaime, since he just attacked Ned, and 2) she doesn't want her influence and access to Joffrey and her other children to be curtailed.
Also, Ned's already injured. It's not like the Lannisters need to have him stuck in the Black Cells or something here. They just place extra guards around his sickbed and prevent him from leaving or speaking with his own men.
When Robert recovers, he's waking up to a mess, but it's a mess that mostly seems to be winding down, and nobody really acted totally legally in it. If Robert knew he was going to be incapacitated, he'd have declared that Ned should be Regent, but it was still technically illegal, and the Starks did kidnap a nobleman. The Lannisters did attack the Starks and the Riverlands and have Ned arrested, but that was in retailiation against a kidnapping, Ned was technically attempting something illegal when arrested, and Jaime was taken prisoner in return anyway. We know from how he treated the Tyrells and especially the Greyjoys that Robert is generally pretty willing to let bygones be bygones if it'll make an issue go away, so I think it's pretty in character that at this point he'd basically just pardon both parties and try to get things back to the way they were.
I had some more response, but mostly it boils down to I think you're using a fanon characterization of Robert rather than one that's anywhere near canon at that point in time in the books.
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I may have an answer to my dilemma. Dragons and the Yi Ti.
Could give the north a bunch of refugees from Yi Ti, bringing with them Rice, elephants acclimated to colder climates and pigs and glass and piping. Boost the size of the Norths population and wealth. Yi Ti nobility loyal to the Starks with their peons being able to do something with Northern soil. It would cause drama with some of the Northern Lords but it would work.
Maybe have a cadet branch of House Stark that's produced by the marriage of a Targ bastard with a Stark bastard. So they end up with Dragons in the North.
More Valyrian refugees fleeing the Numenorean conquest meaning the Crown Lands, the reach and the Westerlands gain their engineering and architecture.
Maesters less willing to allegedly poison Dragons because of the threat of a super-powered magical kingdom across the narrow sea means they hang on longer.
And the Targs borrowing from Tippy's idea are less apt to concentrate their Dragons wanting as many as possible to potentially battle the Numenoreans allow and encourage houses with Targ blood and potential Dragon Riders to keep and breed their own Dragons?
Roberts Rebellion becomes the second Dance with the battle of the Ruby Ford being a battle between Dragons with Bobby B's Dragon tearing apart Rheagars.
Might be the second dance is enough of a clusterfuck it maims or lames or kills most of the adult Dragons and Riders leaving Robert, the Westerlands and the North with the only Dragon Riders that aren't crippled or too young and inexperienced.
Dany becomes the first Valyrian in a thousand years to hatch Dragons that are wild and not creatures bred by Dragon Lords.
Oh and the Ice Fairies have a bunch of Glaurung style wingless Drakes with the Night King maybe being a Balrog?
Ar-Pharazons successors couldn't just walts into Westeros and stomp a mud hole in it when they're busy conquering Essos and Southoryos and thus are too overextended to fight the next generation of Dragon Riders and Dany and the true threat North of the wall all at once.
They'd have to back Dany or Aegon or Stannis and use them as a proxy to get revenge for the red wedding.
Hmmm
Still a year or so off from doing anything with this. Looking Glass has to get to season 3 before I touch this but that might work.
Could give the north a bunch of refugees from Yi Ti, bringing with them Rice, elephants acclimated to colder climates and pigs and glass and piping. Boost the size of the Norths population and wealth. Yi Ti nobility loyal to the Starks with their peons being able to do something with Northern soil. It would cause drama with some of the Northern Lords but it would work.
Maybe have a cadet branch of House Stark that's produced by the marriage of a Targ bastard with a Stark bastard. So they end up with Dragons in the North.
More Valyrian refugees fleeing the Numenorean conquest meaning the Crown Lands, the reach and the Westerlands gain their engineering and architecture.
Maesters less willing to allegedly poison Dragons because of the threat of a super-powered magical kingdom across the narrow sea means they hang on longer.
And the Targs borrowing from Tippy's idea are less apt to concentrate their Dragons wanting as many as possible to potentially battle the Numenoreans allow and encourage houses with Targ blood and potential Dragon Riders to keep and breed their own Dragons?
Roberts Rebellion becomes the second Dance with the battle of the Ruby Ford being a battle between Dragons with Bobby B's Dragon tearing apart Rheagars.
Might be the second dance is enough of a clusterfuck it maims or lames or kills most of the adult Dragons and Riders leaving Robert, the Westerlands and the North with the only Dragon Riders that aren't crippled or too young and inexperienced.
Dany becomes the first Valyrian in a thousand years to hatch Dragons that are wild and not creatures bred by Dragon Lords.
Oh and the Ice Fairies have a bunch of Glaurung style wingless Drakes with the Night King maybe being a Balrog?
Ar-Pharazons successors couldn't just walts into Westeros and stomp a mud hole in it when they're busy conquering Essos and Southoryos and thus are too overextended to fight the next generation of Dragon Riders and Dany and the true threat North of the wall all at once.
They'd have to back Dany or Aegon or Stannis and use them as a proxy to get revenge for the red wedding.
Hmmm
Still a year or so off from doing anything with this. Looking Glass has to get to season 3 before I touch this but that might work.
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Bassoe
Well-known member
Númenor unexpectedly sinks midway through their invasion and they're suddenly stuck in Westeros without resupply and backup and suddenly have to change their methodology from simply fucking everything up to establishing a Numenorian Manchu Dynasty/Angrezi Raj.
Eru sends them to Planetos on a redemption journey because he believes they can be a hard dark fire to burn away the evil only to nuke their island again? 
"Eru the wrathful" indeed.
I enjoyed the Memri TV signage though
"Eru the wrathful" indeed.
I enjoyed the Memri TV signage though
Bassoe
Well-known member
A redemption journey wouldn't have brought the rape baboons with.
VictortheMonarch
Victor the Crusader
Personally I think a good story could revolve around a 12th century Crusader being ISOTed into Westeros. Be rather nice to see someone bring the wrath of god down on those fools.
So let's say ASOIAF was written by someone who wasn't lazy..and had a sense of scale.
Targ cadet branches.
Where would they be strategivally dumped and how many?
Targ cadet branches.
Where would they be strategivally dumped and how many?