United States Trump v Biden 2, electric boogaloo

Bigking321 · Jun 6, 2023

Shrug. Matter of opinion I suppose. I think it's pretty much the opposite of that.

We won't really know unless they actually come out and explain their plans but I doubt that will happen.

Bacle · Jun 6, 2023

S'task said:
No.

He exists in the race to hinder deSantis and empower Trump.

You need to understand the globalist establishment is terrified of deSantis, moreso than they are of Trump, for a few reasons. The first is that deSantis has a proven record as governor and has shown time and again he's willing to go against the establishment sacred cows, like Disney, and has also shown he can win. Further, he's surrounded himself with competent people which will enable him to build a cabinet that actually reflects and enforces his policies if he became President. Further they're not sure they can beat deSantis in the general election. He doesn't have the negatives that Trump did (and for those saying, "just let the mainstream media have at him and he will, you need to go look at the negatives for other recent Republican presidents whom the media gave the same treatment to. Also consider Hillary Clinton who had equal if not greater negatives than Trump DESPITE a fawning media. Candidate personality and history matters A LOT, the media can only do so much.) and they will have a much more difficult time rallying the people needed to fortify an election against deSantis.

Meanwhile Trump, they're sure they can beat him in the general. He still has those negatives and they can rally the same people and "threat to Democracy" narrative against him to enable election fortification in a way they can't against deSantis.

Basically, the globalist establishment, if they cannot have one of their own as the Republican candidate (which at this point they cannot, Republican primary voters have gotten too canny and too burned by the past) would rather have Trump because they believe he cannot beat Biden and even if he did have a chance, they believe they can fortify things to counter him because there's enough of a panic and emotional response against him to motivate people.

Now, they may be wrong. After all, that was similar to their logic in 2016 and why they enabled Trump over other Republicans and we saw how that turned out. But that's the actual gamble going on by the Globalists.

This is why we need a DeSantis/RFK Jr. bipartisan ticket; make it so we can move beyond just a single party option and actually give us a combo that would clean house in Washington and handle the deep rot.

RFK Jr. know better than most the price of the rot in DC, and RFK Jr. finally getting vengence for his father and uncle would be a beautiful thing to see, and DeSantis would be able to competently govern if he didn't have to worry about a snake in every seat like Trump had going on.

It would also make it easier for sane Dems to finally rebuke and seriously hurt the lunatic progressives who hijacked their party.

However, I think Pence is in this to sabotage both Trump and DeSantis; he's the "let the GOP take the fall for the economic/social catastrophe just over the horizon so we don't, but with governence that might let us keep power overall" candidate for DC/the Dems.

LordsFire · Jun 6, 2023

Bacle said:
This is why we need a DeSantis/RFK Jr. bipartisan ticket; make it so we can move beyond just a single party option and actually give us a combo that would clean house in Washington and handle the deep rot.

RFK Jr. know better than most the price of the rot in DC, and RFK Jr. finally getting vengence for his father and uncle would be a beautiful thing to see, and DeSantis would be able to competently govern if he didn't have to worry about a snake in every seat like Trump had going on.

It would also make it easier for sane Dems to finally rebuke and seriously hurt the lunatic progressives who hijacked their party.

However, I think Pence is in this to sabotage both Trump and DeSantis; he's the "let the GOP take the fall for the economic/social catastrophe just over the horizon so we don't, but with governence that might let us keep power overall" candidate for DC/the Dems.

You still do not understand one whit of how the majority of Conservatives think.

Any lefty like RFK Jr as a running partner would be seen as definitive proof of whatever Republican was running with them being an establishment beast, a sellout, and completely untrustworthy.

Taking a Democrat (current, not 'was a Democrat 20 years ago) as a running partner is the kiss of death for any Republican.

Blasterbot · Jun 6, 2023

RFK is the best the dems got to offer true. I still remember just how anti-gun he was. He still has bought in very heavily into the climate change lobby. his only change being he no longer trusts the government to implement such change.

DeSantis running now was a shrewd move by those who want to divide MAGA. it burns what was likely the best guy to pick it up after Trump in the eyes of the base. it forces MAGA to find a new guy for 2028. unfortunately I don't think he is even going to manage to pick up Florida his home state in this primary. he is gonna burn a lot of political capital for no gain and he will be tainted in the eyes of a lot of people.

The Whispering Monk · Jun 6, 2023

Blasterbot said:
RFK is the best the dems got to offer true. I still remember just how anti-gun he was. He still has bought in very heavily into the climate change lobby. his only change being he no longer trusts the government to implement such change.

DeSantis running now was a shrewd move by those who want to divide MAGA. it burns what was likely the best guy to pick it up after Trump in the eyes of the base. it forces MAGA to find a new guy for 2028. unfortunately I don't think he is even going to manage to pick up Florida his home state in this primary. he is gonna burn a lot of political capital for no gain and he will be tainted in the eyes of a lot of people.

I think you underestimate DeSantis' pull in Florida.

Blasterbot · Jun 6, 2023

The Whispering Monk said:
I think you underestimate DeSantis' pull in Florida.

the polling of Florida I've seen puts him >20 points behind trump. he may be popular there. but he isn't more popular than Trump. it is admittedly more favorable than if you take the national numbers that put trump at 55% to his 20ish percent when you put everyone on the ballot.

Terthna · Jun 6, 2023

S'task said:
No.

He exists in the race to hinder deSantis and empower Trump.

You need to understand the globalist establishment is terrified of deSantis, moreso than they are of Trump, for a few reasons. The first is that deSantis has a proven record as governor and has shown time and again he's willing to go against the establishment sacred cows, like Disney, and has also shown he can win. Further, he's surrounded himself with competent people which will enable him to build a cabinet that actually reflects and enforces his policies if he became President. Further they're not sure they can beat deSantis in the general election. He doesn't have the negatives that Trump did (and for those saying, "just let the mainstream media have at him and he will, you need to go look at the negatives for other recent Republican presidents whom the media gave the same treatment to. Also consider Hillary Clinton who had equal if not greater negatives than Trump DESPITE a fawning media. Candidate personality and history matters A LOT, the media can only do so much.) and they will have a much more difficult time rallying the people needed to fortify an election against deSantis.

Meanwhile Trump, they're sure they can beat him in the general. He still has those negatives and they can rally the same people and "threat to Democracy" narrative against him to enable election fortification in a way they can't against deSantis.

Basically, the globalist establishment, if they cannot have one of their own as the Republican candidate (which at this point they cannot, Republican primary voters have gotten too canny and too burned by the past) would rather have Trump because they believe he cannot beat Biden and even if he did have a chance, they believe they can fortify things to counter him because there's enough of a panic and emotional response against him to motivate people.

Now, they may be wrong. After all, that was similar to their logic in 2016 and why they enabled Trump over other Republicans and we saw how that turned out. But that's the actual gamble going on by the Globalists.

Setting aside the inevitable "election fortification", if a majority of people legitimately think Biden is a better option than Trump, in spite (or perhaps, in pure ignorance) of both men's records as president, then I don't see how we can vote our way into fixing what's wrong with this country anymore.

Typhonis · Jun 6, 2023

Terthna said:
Setting aside the inevitable "election fortification", if a majority of people legitimately think Biden is a better option than Trump, in spite (or perhaps, in pure ignorance) of both men's records as president, then I don't see how we can vote our way into fixing what's wrong with this country anymore.

That is if Biden makes it too election time and doesn't have a major stroke before then.

Sobek · Jun 6, 2023

I wouldn't say RFK is a lefty but having a D next to his name kills it for people super hard especially given he still has that filiation as of today and didn't drop it years ago which could have been excused.

He also looks way out of his depth. He cruised on his family name for too long and seems unaware of how massive the changes have been since the hay day of Camelot. You would have thought his vaccine skepticism would have clued him on how rigged and changed the game is nowadays but he really sounds shocked that media is consoring his lines and big tech is refusing to plataform him. That is a level of naiveté that will get him removed from any position of power without even having to reach for the box of 6.5x52mm

Bacle · Jun 6, 2023

LordsFire said:
You still do not understand one whit of how the majority of Conservatives think.

Any lefty like RFK Jr as a running partner would be seen as definitive proof of whatever Republican was running with them being an establishment beast, a sellout, and completely untrustworthy.

Taking a Democrat (current, not 'was a Democrat 20 years ago) as a running partner is the kiss of death for any Republican.

Conservatives aren't the only people who vote, and the GOP needs to win on a general election, not whatever makes the tradcon crowd happy.

Trump won in 2016 because he was a populist, not a conservative, and it is a mistake to think the GOP can win much of anything anymore if the only people the party cares about pleasing is the tradcon choir, while ignoring the feelings of the rest of the electorate.

Cherico · Jun 6, 2023

S'task said:
No.

He exists in the race to hinder deSantis and empower Trump.

You need to understand the globalist establishment is terrified of deSantis, moreso than they are of Trump, for a few reasons. The first is that deSantis has a proven record as governor and has shown time and again he's willing to go against the establishment sacred cows, like Disney, and has also shown he can win. Further, he's surrounded himself with competent people which will enable him to build a cabinet that actually reflects and enforces his policies if he became President. Further they're not sure they can beat deSantis in the general election. He doesn't have the negatives that Trump did (and for those saying, "just let the mainstream media have at him and he will, you need to go look at the negatives for other recent Republican presidents whom the media gave the same treatment to. Also consider Hillary Clinton who had equal if not greater negatives than Trump DESPITE a fawning media. Candidate personality and history matters A LOT, the media can only do so much.) and they will have a much more difficult time rallying the people needed to fortify an election against deSantis.

Meanwhile Trump, they're sure they can beat him in the general. He still has those negatives and they can rally the same people and "threat to Democracy" narrative against him to enable election fortification in a way they can't against deSantis.

Basically, the globalist establishment, if they cannot have one of their own as the Republican candidate (which at this point they cannot, Republican primary voters have gotten too canny and too burned by the past) would rather have Trump because they believe he cannot beat Biden and even if he did have a chance, they believe they can fortify things to counter him because there's enough of a panic and emotional response against him to motivate people.

Now, they may be wrong. After all, that was similar to their logic in 2016 and why they enabled Trump over other Republicans and we saw how that turned out. But that's the actual gamble going on by the Globalists.

personally I don't think Desantis is quite ready for prime time and he's needed to solidify florida. I see him as our second Grachi brother and some one who is best kept in reserve.

LordsFire · Jun 6, 2023

Bacle said:
Conservatives aren't the only people who vote, and the GOP needs to win on a general election, not whatever makes the tradcon crowd happy.

Trump won in 2016 because he was a populist, not a conservative, and it is a mistake to think the GOP can win much of anything anymore if the only people the party cares about pleasing is the tradcon choir, while ignoring the feelings of the rest of the electorate.

Throwing away your base to appeal to 'moderates' has never worked.

Trump won because he appealed to both Conservatives and moderates, much in the way that Reagan did. There's a term, 'Reagan Democrat,' for a reason.

Sobek · Jun 6, 2023

You let the Media and Government push the envelope.

Yesterday's moderate becomes a extremist.

You move to the middle, becoming the Progressive of 10 year ago to "be moderate".

You lose the support of your base that didn't change and the people who have changed aren't interested in your weaker progress.

Repeat.

Bacle · Jun 6, 2023

LordsFire said:
Throwing away your base to appeal to 'moderates' has never worked.

The Tradcon base is not all there is to the GOP, unless you've just tried to ignore the Big Tent populism that Trump got in 2016.

Also, there are simply more moderates than hardcore tradcons these days, and elections are won with addition, not subtraction, and just preaching to the choir doesn't work in US politics.

LordsFire said:
Trump won because he appealed to both Conservatives and moderates, much in the way that Reagan did. There's a term, 'Reagan Democrat,' for a reason.

Reagan and his legacy/politics DO NOT FUCKING MATTER to much of the modern US electorate anymore, get that through your skull.

Trump won because he was a populist with populist policies, not because of 'tradcon conservatism' being more appealing to moderates, and because Hillary was just that bad.

This is you once again operating under the illusion that the tradcon base of the GOP matters for national elections anymore; they don't.

The people the GOP can peel off the Dems and appeal to in the center have more numbers in the places that matter (swing states/districts are a thing).

Sobek · Jun 6, 2023

I don't think Trump is a tradcon. I don't think he ever was. I mean I can see how one might classify him as that but not while at the sane time thinking DeSantis is less "tradcon".

What do you mean exactly by that can you explain? Because it sounds like we are talking about different things with the same name.

"Reagan Democrat" is just a label to explain a liberal that is hard pro america and patriotic in this context not literally Reagan-like on policies.

Also you keep ignoring the math that does not compute. The number of people who will vote DeSantis over Biden but not Trump over Biden is nowhere near enouh to make up for all the voters who will vote Trump over anyone.

LordsFire · Jun 6, 2023

Bacle said:
snip

It's like you aren't even reading what I'm saying.

Bacle · Jun 6, 2023

LordsFire said:
It's like you aren't even reading what I'm saying.

Oh I did, and I responded to it as I thought was fit.

You are still under the illusion Trump won over moderates in 2016 because of a 'conservative silent majority' or 'going back to Reagan appeal' or some such, rather than because he was a populist who appealed to more than just the tradcon/religious conservative base, and because Hillary was just that bad.

The GOP hardcore base and what they want matter less than how a candidate can do in general elections with the moderate and disaffected Dem/Blue Dog vote.

Those moderates and disaffected Dems may vote for RFK Jr., which is why saying:

LordsFire said:
Taking a Democrat (current, not 'was a Democrat 20 years ago) as a running partner is the kiss of death for any Republican.

Is only true if you do not care about the votes of anyone but the GOP tradcon base.

The GOP 'base' you think gets to dictate decisions about the GOP's political future, and is worth more than the moderate vote, is not in the drivers seat of the GOP anymore.

Elections are a numbers game, and the GOP leadership has realized there are more votes outside their old base, than inside it, and adjusted the party accordingly, which also means sidelining the desires of the tradcon base in favor of those of the swing voters who actually fucking matter electorally.

The GOP 'base' matters less than the swing voters who flip key races, the GOP leadership knows this, and that is the reason the GOP is shifting towards what those swing voters like, more than trying to make their old base happy.

LordsFire · Jun 7, 2023

Bacle said:
Oh I did, and I responded to it as I thought was fit.

You are still under the illusion Trump won over moderates in 2016 because of a 'conservative silent majority' or 'going back to Reagan appeal' or some such, rather than because he was a populist who appealed to more than just the tradcon/religious conservative base, and because Hillary was just that bad.

Quote me on this 'Conservative silent majority.'

Go ahead.

Do it.

Quote me on 'going back to the Reagan appeal.'

Go ahead.

Do it.

Bigking321 · Jun 7, 2023

Bacle said:
You are still under the illusion Trump won over moderates in 2016 because of a 'conservative silent majority' or 'going back to Reagan appeal' or some such, rather than because he was a populist who appealed to more than just the tradcon/religious conservative base, and because Hillary was just that bad.

Are... are you legitimately just not reading what people are typing?

LordsFire said:
Trump won because he appealed to both Conservatives and moderates, much in the way that Reagan did.

Bacle · Jun 7, 2023

LordsFire said:
Quote me on this 'Conservative silent majority.'

Go ahead.

Do it.

Quote me on 'going back to the Reagan appeal.'

Go ahead.

Do it.

LordsFire said:
Trump won because he appealed to both Conservatives and moderates, much in the way that Reagan did. There's a term, 'Reagan Democrat,' for a reason.

You began this exchange by claiming I do not understand conservatives, then you claim harkening back to Reagan is part of why Trump won. You are factually correct that Trump did do this, that isn't in dispute, we both agree it happened.

You brought Reagan's legacy appeal into this, though not with the exact words that I used to describe your rhetoric, and are trying to dodge actually address the point I have tried to make by pretending you don't know how it relates to the argument you started when I replied to S'task.

You keep trying to ignore the large context because you wanted to make this a fight with how you started this, I'm not going to back down.

Bigking321 said:
Are... are you actually just not reading what people are typing?

I am.

He is ignoring what I said about Trump being a populist, not just a conservative, and why it wasn't the 'conservative' part of Trump that won him 2016, it was the populist, and claiming I do not understand conservatives at the outset of this debate in reply to something I said to someone else.

This is not the first time he's tried this 'you're not a real conservative/you don't understand conservatives' purity spiral BS with me. He keeps acting like I have to 'prove myself conservative' in his eyes to have any place in these kind of political debates and it is infuriatingly representative of the kinda BS that makes a lot of the rest of the US not really care much about the feelings of the GOP base.

At some point the old school GoP base needs to realize they will never be in the drivers seat again, they will be front passenger seat at best to the desires of moderates and Blue Dogs who control the GOP's future.

The GOP will be a vehicle of the Blue Dogs and moderates to fight the Far-Left, if it has any future at all, more than a bastion of 'conservatism' because geography and redistricting don't care about conservative values.

Where's that 'The Future is Now, Old Man' meme.

United States Trump v Biden 2, electric boogaloo

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