Seems like it would be the most practical way. Plus wasn't that how they grafted organic tech onto white stars and the Excaliburs?
Babylon 5 A Fighting Chance --- A Babylon 5 AU
- Thread starter Harlock
- Start date
Seems like it would be the most practical way. Plus wasn't that how they grafted organic tech onto white stars and the Excaliburs?
I don't remember a conversation about that except that the Excalibur was built by Garibaldi et al.
Harlock
I should have expected that really
Might well be so . You can see on the CG model textures that the hull is lots and lots of hexagonal panels, maybe a crystal grown and cut horizontally?
It was in the fluff material.
Vlad_Dracul89
Well-known member
Just visited Babylon 5 Wiki, and noticed that Clark is actually described less as a villain, but more like anti-villain or tragic villain.
It's real bummer we never got any deep lore about him, at least we know Morden's though.
Then he just went insane and lost his mind completely after defeats, as we all know. However:
I really don't like, even if it's a fiction, how one man is villified to be cause of everything, although he needs a lot of people and support to pull off anything, even if it's minority of population. Isn't collective guilt real after all?
It's real bummer we never got any deep lore about him, at least we know Morden's though.
Then he just went insane and lost his mind completely after defeats, as we all know. However:
I really don't like, even if it's a fiction, how one man is villified to be cause of everything, although he needs a lot of people and support to pull off anything, even if it's minority of population. Isn't collective guilt real after all?
Harlock
I should have expected that really
Clark does need to carry the weight of his crimes, he wasn't the only criminal but he is significantly responsible. If he had said no would they have just found somebody else? Possibly, but he said yes so it lays upon his head.
The Black Ops guys are also villains and maintained a lot of control after Clark went and their Psi Corps rivals were neutered, they would have been broken by the Excalibur crew. It is fair to say they are also guilty, but Clark did initiate a coup with help from an alien power which is quite hypocritical, and he did kill more humans than he did aliens which is a bit dumb. And then nearly genocided Earth which was nice
But yeah, I can imagine a lot of the guilty dumped their crimes on him as a useful lightning rod while they bribed or threatened their way out of a long drop with a short stop.
That said it is somewhat refreshing that the EA didn't prosecute those who followed Clark but did so for legitimate reasons. Only those that actually violated the law by shooting civvies and the like.
The Black Ops guys are also villains and maintained a lot of control after Clark went and their Psi Corps rivals were neutered, they would have been broken by the Excalibur crew. It is fair to say they are also guilty, but Clark did initiate a coup with help from an alien power which is quite hypocritical, and he did kill more humans than he did aliens which is a bit dumb. And then nearly genocided Earth which was nice
But yeah, I can imagine a lot of the guilty dumped their crimes on him as a useful lightning rod while they bribed or threatened their way out of a long drop with a short stop.
That said it is somewhat refreshing that the EA didn't prosecute those who followed Clark but did so for legitimate reasons. Only those that actually violated the law by shooting civvies and the like.
Vlad_Dracul89
Well-known member
EA could definitely do widespread and thorough 'declarkification' cleansing from highest to lowest ranks, but Realpolitik stuff and idealistic democratic sunshines prevented it.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
Here's the thing, Clark probably got keepered towards the end, much like Londo did when he became Emperor. The thing was, Clark didn't know -or probably couldn't, given that what Londo used to knock his keeper out is fluffed to be wood alcohol grade at the minimum and he was seriously chugging it to get that keeper drunk as a skunk- the limitations of the keeper until his now-famous 'scorched earth' letter.
It should be noted that Santiago was also a-ok with some of the shit that the black ops were doing (as they were started during his presidency), especially when it came to poking around with alien tech that humanity didn't have a chance in hell to understand. The thing was that Santiago was using the old adage of 'if you want peace, prepare for war'. Clark, largely, dispensed with the idea of diplomacy and suffered from it.
It should be noted that Santiago was also a-ok with some of the shit that the black ops were doing (as they were started during his presidency), especially when it came to poking around with alien tech that humanity didn't have a chance in hell to understand. The thing was that Santiago was using the old adage of 'if you want peace, prepare for war'. Clark, largely, dispensed with the idea of diplomacy and suffered from it.
Vlad_Dracul89
Well-known member
Yeah, true, never got good vibes of Santiago. At best, he seemed to me like one of those generic politicians who speak the lot, but never promise and actually do anything worthwhile, completely focused to survive his term, and that's it.
Not saying he deserved to be killed (because I suspect then you would have to kill 90% of Earth Senate too), but not many tears were shed. Fact, that his name was later mentioned only because of assasination itself, says a lot.
Not saying he deserved to be killed (because I suspect then you would have to kill 90% of Earth Senate too), but not many tears were shed. Fact, that his name was later mentioned only because of assasination itself, says a lot.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
Yes and no. Santiago was someone that understood that the main threat to humanity is Minbar, but also understood that diplomacy should be the first weapon, so to speak.
He wasn't above preparing for a worst-case scenario, though.
Ghostking 666
Active member
I can’t even blame Clark for ignoring diplomacy. The Minbari War showed just how little that stuff was worth. What’s the point of cultivating ties and friendships and even alliances if all your so called “friends” leave you in the lurch when crunch time calls?
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
That's not entirely true, given what happened during and after the war, specifically the fact that a significant portion of the Drazi military was going to meet up with Earth Alliance units but vanished in hyperspace (either due to a Minbari ambush or a Vorlon 'intervention'). At the tail end of the war, the Vree (the guys who love using antimatter and use saucers for warships) helped the Earth Alliance with the cleanup. This is on top of the fact that many LONAW soldiers became part of Alien Volunteer units.
The real problem is that everyone outside of the Vorlons was scared beyond shitless with the Minbari, even the Centauri... and the one attempt by the Drazi vanishing into the ether, never to be seen again, solidified that for official channels.
If, say, that Drazi fleet managed to get into Earth Alliance space, then the Drazi would have gloated/shamed the rest of the LONAW into siding with the Earth Alliance, and this is despite the fact that they needed time to rebuild and heal from the Dilgar War!
Vlad_Dracul89
Well-known member
Too bad that Humans must always oscillate from one extreme to another extreme...
I mean, you see it on Twitter every day.
I mean, you see it on Twitter every day.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
It should be noted that humans are always falling within a bell curve in terms of ideology, at least before the dawn of memetic science and the internet (and even then, it just flattens that bell curve).
Another thing is that the LONAW, during the Minbari War, had a literal gun at their heads after the Drazi tried to send help with a significant portion of their fleet. The Minbari literally parked War Cruisers in orbit of their worlds saying 'we've got a gun to your heads, do you want to join the humans?'. Yeah, that happened in the extended lore.
Humans, in this case, couldn't fault the LONAW for not overtly helping out after the Drazi got a significant portion of their fleet murderized, and the Minbari took credit for that from what I've dug up...
Another thing is that the LONAW, during the Minbari War, had a literal gun at their heads after the Drazi tried to send help with a significant portion of their fleet. The Minbari literally parked War Cruisers in orbit of their worlds saying 'we've got a gun to your heads, do you want to join the humans?'. Yeah, that happened in the extended lore.
Humans, in this case, couldn't fault the LONAW for not overtly helping out after the Drazi got a significant portion of their fleet murderized, and the Minbari took credit for that from what I've dug up...
Midnighter13
Well-known member
Honestly? After that mess I'm surprised the LONAW wasn't more anti-Minbari than anti-Centuari. Sure, the Centuari were imperialist thugs who colonized, occupied, and exploited their worlds for centuries, but the Minbari were right there threatening to genocide them all if they tried to help the people who saved them from the Dilgar. Even the Centuari had to look appealing after that. And once Earth got their feet back under them? I could see the LONAW and EA signing various agreements to the effect of 'we are all going to share tech and resources so that if the Minbari get all genocide happy again we will at least have some ways to defend ourselves.' Honestly surprised at how respected the Minbari were in the show given that sort of history, even decades later.
Not sure if the Minbari pulled that level of gunboat diplomacy in this AU, simply because they needed their ships to actually fight. In canon, they only lost one ship (that we know of) in the entire war. So they could spare a squadron or two to intimidate the League.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
From my understanding, the LONAW is basically a mix of pre-unification Germany and pre-Civil War US, deeply fractured and divided. Then there is the fact that the Minbari has a reputation of being genocide happy when someone gets their ire... as well as the insanely enormous amount of goodwill of being the race that led the various other races of the time to end the previous Shadow War.
It should be noted that this appeared to happen after the Drazi military -in an effort to pay their honor debt to the Earth Alliance- sent a significant portion of their fleet to be Earth's Rohan when it was facing its Gondor, so to speak. The thing was that force was intercepted and annihilated, something that the Minbari took credit for.
Some of the technologies that the Earth Alliance would employ were actually stolen from LONAW wrecks during the Dilgar War, and given that the setting is where most races jealously try to keep as much of their technological capabilities as possible, it is possible that various LONAW races discovered that the EA had some of their techs and let it slide.
Hell, the Earth Alliance bought samples of a Vree artificial gravity system, but due to the differences in design and architecture, the EA couldn't reverse engineer it properly.
Ghostking 666
Active member
Considering that only the Yolu and various Minbari protectorate races are old enough to care about that, said goodwill doesn’t amount to much. Other than the Yolu, the various League races are simply too young to have been space faring at that time.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
You wouldn't believe how much goodwill defeating the Shadows gave the Minbari, largely because that particular war still all but exterminated quite a few races. Many of them became part of the Minbari Protectorate. That's just how brutal the last Shadow War was. Then there was the fact that they whacked at least one race that made the Centauri better company and the fact that they gave the Centauri a horrific scare when their privateers decided to go completely pirate...
The Minbari had plenty of goodwill over the centuries, but that kind of vanished after the entire 'put a gun to their heads' incident.
As long as the Minbari 'Stealth' (which is more of an EM suite) is fully operational, no one can actually take a fight to them. LONAW can but at the time of the Earth-Minbari War, they're still reeling from the losses suffered by the Dilgar War.
Midnighter13
Well-known member
You're right, I wouldn't believe it. Even if the Shadow War hadn't destroyed most records from that time, it was a thousand years ago. That's a long time for any polity to remember a debt. For point of reference, a thousand years ago was the Battle of Hastings, and no one is going around claiming some great respect for the Normans has helped British/French relations in regards to new trade agreements after the British left the EU.
At the point of the Earth/Minbari war, the Minbari are little more than legends. And the stories change between them being heroic leaders of all people good and true against the ancient demons, and being those scary people who exterminate their foes without mercy. When they show up again? The second set of legends certainly seems more accurate. I'm not sure why anyone in the League would buy the 'no we really are the good guys, honestly, we beat the Shadows guys' after they threatened to exterminate every home world in the League. If nothing else, that should have been a massive wakeup call for them as a group (as if the Dilgar War wasn't enough) to get them to rebuild a powerful military alliance that could stand up to the bigger powers in the galaxy.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
... wow, I can't believe what I'm seeing. The thing was that the Minbari had a lot of goodwill despite the 1k years and a mighty reputation. In addition, we're talking about aliens here, but you conveniently forget that I said that the goodwill vanished during the Earth-Minbari War (and it sank even lower during the Last Shadow War as the Warrior Caste decided to undertake a civil fucking war just as the Shadows came out) after they came in and gunboat diplomacy'd them. In addition, the LONAW is made up of races that also don't trust each other all that well, the only real thing uniting them was the Centauri.
In addition, you forget just how destructive the Dilgar War was for the LONAW. Not only did the few colonies that the LONAW had got smashed, but at least one got their homeworld trashed (and in B5, the homeworld system is almost always the most populated and industrialized, thus if they get wrecked then you're talking at least a decade to recover).