Versus Match A single craftworld vs The entirety of the Protoss

[Zachowon]

Using the most Average of Calculations, a VS I havnt seen I'm awhile.

A single Eldar Craftworld goes up against the Whole Protoss race.

Takes place in a neutral empty universe. The Craftworld is known by the protoss and the Worlds are known by the Eldar.

Who wins

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

I think we can adequately judge what you mean by Craftworld, but with the Protoss it is unclear. When exactly do you mean? I assume it would before, during, or after any of the particular games, but that is just because it is most likely. The exact amount of forces the Protoss have depends on the period.

I'd need to do some more research to be sure of any conclusion. But at first glance I'd say the Protoss would win, since they can glass worlds, have a numerical advantage and as per OP have knowledge of the Craftworld.

 

[Simonbob]

Over all, assuming 40k limits to the Craftworlders? Protoss, hands down, on numbers, as much as anything else.

If we're talking full War In Heaven Eldar? That's a different story. Might not be a different result, but it's going to be a much, much harder fight.

Immortal elf Psi commandos? Nasty.

 

[Scottty]

It's one spaceship, right? A single unit?

So we get this fellow to cast Mind Control on it. :-D

 

[Husky_Khan]

How big is the Protoss Empire and the like anyhow? Having not played Starcraft II it always seemed likely to me that the Protoss must've been a "small" Empire or space civilization though I suppose that is relative. Like the Terran civilizations, while obviously inferior to the Protoss, were still in the same general ballpark and despite their inferior technology and I'm presuming population and the fact they occupied like a dozen heavily populated worlds (split between several civilizations) they were still a not insignificant pushover for the UED's 300? ship expeditionary force in Brood War and the various Zerg rushes that seemed to plague them (and which also threatened Aiur, the Protoss home planet).

Being just as unfamiliar with 40K, we could ponder at least if the Eldar could potentially put a force that is comparable to the scale of that of the UED Expedition perhaps which was apparently quite the formidable force in gaming lore?

 

[Scottty]

How big is the Protoss Empire and the like anyhow? Having not played Starcraft II it always seemed likely to me that the Protoss must've been a "small" Empire or space civilization though I suppose that is relative. Like the Terran civilizations, while obviously inferior to the Protoss, were still in the same general ballpark and despite their inferior technology and I'm presuming population and the fact they occupied like a dozen heavily populated worlds (split between several civilizations) they were still a not insignificant pushover for the UED's 300? ship expeditionary force in Brood War and the various Zerg rushes that seemed to plague them (and which also threatened Aiur, the Protoss home planet).

Being just as unfamiliar with 40K, we could ponder at least if the Eldar could potentially put a force that is comparable to the scale of that of the UED Expedition perhaps which was apparently quite the formidable force in gaming lore?

Not all of the Protoss are part of the same polity. They have different factions who don't always get along. As for their size, it's implied that they were more extended in the past, with some former colony worlds now being abandoned. Lots of automated defenses, many actual living Protoss there.

 

[Despite]

Using the most Average of Calculations, a VS I havnt seen I'm awhile.

A single Eldar Craftworld goes up against the Whole Protoss race.

Takes place in a neutral empty universe. The Craftworld is known by the protoss and the Worlds are known by the Eldar.

Who wins

It probably would depend on the Craftworld and the period of the Protoss race. In terms of absolute population a Craftworld can have millions to billions of Eldar. So at some points in either sides history a major Craftworld could outnumber the Protoss in the sense of population. All adult Eldar would be capable of serving in the military. Protoss have more specialised warrior castes right up until the Daelaam Protoss, who are a combined Protectorate of Khalai, Nerazim, Taldarim and Purifiers, who will have anyone as a soldier, but are also probably outnumbered by a small Craftworld, never mind the largest.

It is difficult to pick the peak of Protoss military might, since they were relatively unchallenged until they effectively lost most of their military and population in a single massive, prolonged engagement around and on Aiur. With each conflict the Protoss take enormous casualties. Post Great War they had a civil war. Their new main population centre of Shakuras was overrun by zerg. SC2 era Shakuras is eventually destroyed and another civil war and massive Protoss deathtoll ensues.

It's one spaceship, right? A single unit?

So we get this fellow to cast Mind Control on it. :-D

Its probably not a single unit. Even if we were to take the idea seriously. When Biel-Tan was broken up, it separated out into a lot of debris, and a swarm of independent starships.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Its probably not a single unit. Even if we were to take the idea seriously. When Biel-Tan was broken up, it separated out into a lot of debris, and a swarm of independent starships.

The other problem is that the souls of all the departed Eldar reside within the Craftworld IIRC. As such...even a Protoss' little mind is just gonne get BENT...probably in an unkind way.

That and all the Eldar Farseers and such are generally considered some of the nastiest psykers in the 40k universe. Lord help you if there's a Troupe of Harlequin around. They get mean.

 

[Scottty]

The other problem is that the souls of all the departed Eldar reside within the Craftworld IIRC. As such...even a Protoss' little mind is just gonne get BENT...probably in an unkind way.

It's not a Protoss as such, at least not anymore It's a Dark Archon. Two or more Dark Templar fuse to summon it, giving up their physical forms in the process.

Dark archon

Fear not, comrades, for we have archons of our own! Should the dire need arise, all Dark Templar may merge to become Dark Archons. Though we sacrifice our warriors in doing so, only the might of the Dark Archons can match the forces of Aldaris!Zeratul to Artanis The dark archon is a heavy...

starcraft.fandom.com

The Dark Templar themselves consider this a bit OP, and only create these things in extreme need.

That and all the Eldar Farseers and such are generally considered some of the nastiest psykers in the 40k universe. Lord help you if there's a Troupe of Harlequin around. They get mean.

Well they'll be the Protoss side's Harlequin once Mind Control is used on them.
This isn't like Yuri from the Red Alert universe who can be resisted if you're strong enough. A Dark Archon can take over control of pretty much anything, including both strongly psionic units, and machines, and animals, and so on.
Hey look, a big Ork warboss!
(Mind Control cast)
Now he's our big Ork warboss.

One Dark Archon that got on a roll could start its own faction, with a bit of everything.
They do have some pretty extreme weaknesses though.

Ulrezaj

As far as we are concerned, killing high-born Templar is an act of righteous justice! Let the rulers of Aiur feel what it's like to be hunted and driven from their homes! Let them suffer as we Dark Templar have suffered at their hands!Ulrezaj to Zeratul while on trial Ulrezaj is a protoss dark...

starcraft.fandom.com

 

[Zachowon]

It's not a Protoss as such, at least not anymore It's a Dark Archon. Two or more Dark Templar fuse to summon it, giving up their physical forms in the process.

Dark archon

Fear not, comrades, for we have archons of our own! Should the dire need arise, all Dark Templar may merge to become Dark Archons. Though we sacrifice our warriors in doing so, only the might of the Dark Archons can match the forces of Aldaris!Zeratul to Artanis The dark archon is a heavy...

starcraft.fandom.com

The Dark Templar themselves consider this a bit OP, and only create these things in extreme need.



Well they'll be the Protoss side's Harlequin once Mind Control is used on them.
This isn't like Yuri from the Red Alert universe who can be resisted if you're strong enough. A Dark Archon can take over control of pretty much anything, including both strongly psionic units, and machines, and animals, and so on.
Hey look, a big Ork warboss!
(Mind Control cast)
Now he's our big Ork warboss.

One Dark Archon that got on a roll could start its own faction, with a bit of everything.
They do have some pretty extreme weaknesses though.

Ulrezaj

As far as we are concerned, killing high-born Templar is an act of righteous justice! Let the rulers of Aiur feel what it's like to be hunted and driven from their homes! Let them suffer as we Dark Templar have suffered at their hands!Ulrezaj to Zeratul while on trial Ulrezaj is a protoss dark...

starcraft.fandom.com

I wouldn't be so sure.
Chaos can do the same thing, and Eldar are notorious for resisting Chaos.
Also, controlling an Ork Warboss comepeltly depends on the warboss. A weaker one, maybe. Someone like the leader of the Armageddon Waagggghhhh?
Yeah. No.

Also, how does the mind control work? What is its range?

 

[Scottty]

I wouldn't be so sure.
Chaos can do the same thing, and Eldar are notorious for resisting Chaos.
Also, controlling an Ork Warboss comepeltly depends on the warboss. A weaker one, maybe. Someone like the leader of the Armageddon Waagggghhhh?
Yeah. No.

Also, how does the mind control work? What is its range?

Now we come to the fun question of in-game ranges, vs background story, and trying to relate either to a different universe.

In-game, Mind Control transfers control of the targeted unit to the player controlling the Dark Archon.

Mind Control is ranged, but not super long range. The Dark Archon has to recharge its energy before casting again each time, and it loses all it's shields on casting, becoming temporarily very vulnerable. But killing the other player's Dark Archon after it has Mind Controlled your unit won't give you that unit back.

It can work even on units like Terran Battlecruisers, that storywise are supposed to be honking big capital ships with loads of infantry and mechs aboard. It does not work on buildings or static structures.
So put a bunch of Eldar on a shuttle, and it can mind-control the shuttle and get all the passengers into the bargain. There are no units in the game that are immune to the effects of Mind Control by an Archon.

It's OP, and they took it away for SC2. ☹

 

[Zachowon]

Now we come to the fun question of in-game ranges, vs background story, and trying to relate either to a different universe.

In-game, Mind Control transfers control of the targeted unit to the player controlling the Dark Archon.

Mind Control is ranged, but not super long range. The Dark Archon has to recharge its energy before casting again each time, and it loses all it's shields on casting, becoming temporarily very vulnerable. But killing the other player's Dark Archon after it has Mind Controlled your unit won't give you that unit back.

It can work even on units like Terran Battlecruisers, that storywise are supposed to be honking big capital ships with loads of infantry and mechs aboard. It does not work on buildings or static structures.
So put a bunch of Eldar on a shuttle, and it can mind-control the shuttle and get all the passengers into the bargain. There are no units in the game that are immune to the effects of Mind Control by an Archon.

It's OP, and they took it away for SC2. ☹

How does it work in lore?

 

[The Whispering Monk]

It's OP, and they took it away for SC2. ☹

So...it's no longer available as a power...so it's not something that can be brought to bear in the OP's?

 

[Scottty]

So...it's no longer available as a power...so it's not something that can be brought to bear in the OP's?

Well.. "all of the Protoss" is not "all of the Protoss from just SC2". Dark Archons have not been removed from the lore, players just can no longer make them in-game.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Gotcha. We can now classify them as 'plot device'.

 

[LindyAF]

It's OP, and they took it away for SC2. ☹

Weren't Dark Archons bad in Brood War? I thought they saw some niche use super lategame sometimes but they definitely weren't busted.

Dark Archons have not been removed from the lore, players just can no longer make them in-game.

Well, they can in the legacy of the void campaign IIRC.

 

[Despite]

It's not a Protoss as such, at least not anymore It's a Dark Archon. Two or more Dark Templar fuse to summon it, giving up their physical forms in the process.

Dark archon

Fear not, comrades, for we have archons of our own! Should the dire need arise, all Dark Templar may merge to become Dark Archons. Though we sacrifice our warriors in doing so, only the might of the Dark Archons can match the forces of Aldaris!Zeratul to Artanis The dark archon is a heavy...

starcraft.fandom.com

The Dark Templar themselves consider this a bit OP, and only create these things in extreme need.



Well they'll be the Protoss side's Harlequin once Mind Control is used on them.
This isn't like Yuri from the Red Alert universe who can be resisted if you're strong enough. A Dark Archon can take over control of pretty much anything, including both strongly psionic units, and machines, and animals, and so on.
Hey look, a big Ork warboss!
(Mind Control cast)
Now he's our big Ork warboss.

One Dark Archon that got on a roll could start its own faction, with a bit of everything.
They do have some pretty extreme weaknesses though.

I think you are getting too enthusiastic about extrapolating what a Dark Archon can do based on the highly limited efforts of the game dark archons. It is also being considered outside of knowing if the Protoss are even in a position to do much with a Dark Archon. Archons have a physical form that can be hijacked by Zerg parasites, but they burn out after a short period. So the only Dark Archon that might be able to start its own faction is Ulrezaj, and he didnt simply mind control everyone he fought. He may not have even been able to mind control people to the same degree, given his unique origin.

I do not see how you can assert that no sufficiently powerful or numerous, or well protected individual or collection of individuals could possibly contend with the psionic abilities of a Dark Archon, because you have chosen to make the comparison to some other computer game setting. Dark Archons did not play a significant role in the resolution of major Protoss conflicts that we know of. Their abilities ingame are defined by game balance, not lore. A unit in the game is a single entity. It is telling that there is no option to control entire groups of units, only them individually, which means your suggestion that billions of Eldar could be co-opted by a single being that we have no evidence can control remotely that many, or at what distance, what duration, against any interference from an enemy race with significant protective psychic technology and powers. Their entire tech base is made from a mentally shielding material.

You're also talking about an Ork Warboss. Individuals who continue fighting after liquid brain runs down their nose, and who are part of their own psychic gestalt, notorious for disrupting the psychic abilities of others, whilst working from a backdrop of just waving your hands to explain why anyone should accept your logic.

How does it work in lore?

Effectively it doesn't. The Dark Archons don't do anything of merit. If Scottys plan was actually viable, the Protoss would have had entire armies of mindcontrolled vassals doing their bidding, and the most powerful Dark Archon in the setting would have just mind controlled everyone who attacked him. They existed in SC2, and they cannot mind control "heroic" units, which can include people who are simply leaders, with no mental powers at all, they are just plot significant, like Raynor, or any one else.

An obvious counter is that the instant an Archon tries this sort of thing, the multiple enemy battle-psykers reach down his metaphorical throat and pull out his metaphorical spine, because murdering people with psychic attacks is something more substantiated in Eldar lore than the mass use of mind control is for the Protoss. Eldar psykers don't poof out of existence after a brief period either, and if they die, they can come back as ghost powered murder robots with psychic powers.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

If you really want to get down to it....Eldar psychic potential created a god.

 

[LindyAF]

If you really want to get down to it....Eldar psychic potential created a god.

More than one.

Not just one craftworld though, and that's something that *can* happen in 40k, whereas there's no indication that can even happen in SC, so it doesn't really show a difference between them.

 

[Scottty]

More than one.

Not just one craftworld though, and that's something that *can* happen in 40k, whereas there's no indication that can even happen in SC, so it doesn't really show a difference between them.

On the other hand, the StarCraft universe does have it's own supernatural beings.