That assumes that aggressive actions were the only way of achieving those gains. Note that the sudaten state is not only smaller than the demands of Hitler OTL and it ends up as a failed state as well. Add in the chaos of the depression but with different leadership in Germany and the desire to avoid war by the western powers - hence allowing Hitler to get so far while he was still so weak - I could see it happening here as well with a more subtle German leadership.
Alternate History Map Thread
- Thread starter Basileus_Komnenos
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That assumes that aggressive actions were the only way of achieving those gains. Note that the sudaten state is not only smaller than the demands of Hitler OTL and it ends up as a failed state as well. Add in the chaos of the depression but with different leadership in Germany and the desire to avoid war by the western powers - hence allowing Hitler to get so far while he was still so weak - I could see it happening here as well with a more subtle German leadership.
sillygoose
Well-known member
I'm not sure if you're familiar with the governments of Poland, Czechoslovakia, or Austria at this time or France's position on them, but none of them would have given up that territory without the threat of war and in the case of Poland actual war.
Do you have a link in regards to the Soviet-German relationship already effectively ending before 1933?
FWIW, in 1932, some Poles viewed the possibility of an eventual German-Polish war over the Polish Corridor as a very real possibility:
The Polish Corridor: Revision or Peace?
THE world is divided into three schools of thought about the Versailles Treaty. The first comprises most of the people in the European nations on whose territories the World War was actually fought. They are determined to enforce the peace settlement as it stands as the safest way of maintaining...
You can find the full article for free on LibGen, of course.
But what if France is in a state of severe economic crisis or is busy with military problems elsewhere, such as in Indochina and/or in Algeria? Then there might be an opening for Germany to engage in territorial revision if it is sufficiently rearmed by then, no?
Also, to be honest, without Britain as an ally, I'm unsure that France and its eastern allies can actually defeat Germany in a war if Germany sufficiently rearms once this war starts.
sillygoose
Well-known member
I don't think Weimar politicians had the balls to try it. Nor the economic risk taking to build up a sufficient force. They'd also need British buy in just as much as French distraction.
sillygoose
Well-known member
Storm of Steel. This website won't link to amazon for some reason.
IIRC this too:
Reichswehr and Red Army
books.google.com
I'm well aware.FWIW, in 1932, some Poles viewed the possibility of an eventual German-Polish war over the Polish Corridor as a very real possibility:
The Polish Corridor: Revision or Peace?
THE world is divided into three schools of thought about the Versailles Treaty. The first comprises most of the people in the European nations on whose territories the World War was actually fought. They are determined to enforce the peace settlement as it stands as the safest way of maintaining...www.foreignaffairs.com
You can find the full article for free on LibGen, of course.
They'd need British neutrality--so, no British blockade or severe Anglo-American sanctions on Germany.
Storm of Steel. This website won't link to amazon for some reason.
IIRC this too:
Reichswehr and Red Army
books.google.com
Do you know which pages?
sillygoose
Well-known member
I'd have to go through my copy when I find it.
Just how severe do you think that Anglo-American sanctions on Germany would be if it would have tried to launch an aggressive war in Europe?
sillygoose
Well-known member
It would involve war and total blockade like IOTL due to the Allies not wanting to suffer WW1 casualties again.
But would Britain actually be willing to go to war over Danzig and the Polish Corridor? Austen Chamberlain said around 1925 that the Polish Corridor is not worth the life of a single British grenadier, after all!
sillygoose
Well-known member
They did IOTL. If it comes down to Poland being destroyed by Germany yes.
But Weimar Germany won't destroy Poland but will simply seek to get Danzig, the Polish Corridor, and eastern Upper Silesia back. It won't lay claim on any other parts of Poland, not even Posen Province. It might even be nice enough to give Gdynia back to Poland in exchange for Poland agreeing to the new borders.
sillygoose
Well-known member
German IOTL said the same thing, but that didn't matter. Poland won't give up simply by losing those bits either. Remember the Allies were committed to the 'international order' they established after WW1 with some exceptions.
In real life, Hitler betrayed the goodwill that the Munich Agreement gave him by occupying the rest of Czechia later on. Similar to Putin invading the rest of Ukraine this year after the West kinda-sorta allowed him to more-or-less get away with conquering Crimea and the Donbass.
sillygoose
Well-known member
Depends. I've seen it claimed that Chamberlain didn't care and everyone expected the Czech state to collapse anyway, but the Churchill faction seized on it and used media contacts to whip up a frenzy in Britain over the issue. Chamberlain was working to even get Danzig for Germany, but was outmaneuvered politically by Churchill's factor and the Poles pushing for war over negotiations. Once war was declared there was no negotiating possible. It was a rather complicated situation.
I think that there's a difference between expecting something to be done and supporting what was done. For instance, many Westerners expected Ukraine to quickly fall to Russia this year but nevertheless did not actually support this outcome.
TIL about Fuhrerreich a DBWI in a TL where the CPs win WWI where we instead pretend that the CPs lost WWI and that the defeated CPs eventually spark an alt-WWII:
www.google.com
HOI4 Fuhrerreich Timelapse - The European Front 1936 - 1945
I have been thinking about what content I want to bring to you on this channel recently and am looking into making different sorts of videos but for now, I b...
www.google.com
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The thing is Germany OTL was an extremely militaristic and racists state that made no secret of those facts and had already made clear that their word meant nothing to them. If you have a Wiemar state that has stayed democractic and made far less claims than OTL, plus haven't clearly broken their word and aren't militarizing like a maniac that's a radically different thing.
Agreed. Even a rearmed Weimar Germany likely won't be seen as a threat to the European order in quite the same way that Nazi Germany was seen in real life. Weimar Germany would be viewed as a typical revisionist power with modest ambitions (like, say, Hungary, only much larger and much more populous), not as a country that wishes to recreate a variant of Napoleon's Pan-European Empire.