Philosophy Antifascism is stupid (to the point of being evil)

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Antifascism is the idea of opposing fascism so that its evils would not repeat. It is nice, optimistic and logical.

It is also incredibly stupid.

Main problem with authoritharian, genocidal regimes is never the ideology itself. Genocide can be done by intent, or it can happen by accident. It can be a product of hate, or done in order to reach an utopian paradise. But one common theme is the excess of central control. It is not ideology that is lethal, but rather the very fact of an overpowerful state.

But antifascism, by shifting the focus on the ideology, actually promotes the idea of a powerful state that can hold the ideology in check. In that way, it supports the evil which it professes to oppose. Thus it should come to no surprise that self-proclaimed antifascists act exactly like fascists they claim to oppose. Instead of looking at what made fascism evil and murderous, idea itself is presented as inherently evil and murderous - with implicit statement that even almost-exactly-the-same ideas cannot be (as) evil, because they are "not fascism"; as if it is the very word "fascism" which made the ideology genocidal. As a result, Communism and communist mass murderers are often given a free pass - such as Josip Broz Tito, who is often seen as a good person opposed to fascist Ante Pavelić, despite the fact that he killed possibly even more people than Pavelić did. But Pavelić = fascist = evil, Tito = antifascist = anti-evil = good. Or at least that is the logic which Croatian Communists such as Ivo Goldstein and Tvrtko Jakovina.

The conflict between Nazism and Fascism on one side and Communism on the other side is treated similarly. Nazism and Fascism oppose modern-day ideals, and are thus evil, whereas Communism claims it will create a paradise, and is therefore a "good idea". But few people ask what is the cost of a paradise, and how far will the justification of paradise on earth take us. Modern Left sneers at Crusaders for waging a war for the idea of heavenly salvation, while at the same time doing the exact same thing - but far more stupid, because paradise on Earth has been proven to be unachievable, through governmental intervention at least.

But the very idea of utopia, of "just" society, being possible, is dangerous. It can be, and is, used as a justification for incredibly destructive and psychotic behaviour - because society resulting from it will be "better". Flood of blood can be justified by the brighter future, nevermind that said brighter future is unachievable garbage most of the time - or even in and by itself, evil. To achieve anything good, it is necessary to be able to think critically. And antifascism attacks the very idea of critical thought, because it simplifies philosophy and ideology into simple good-bad pattern, where certain ideologies are bad and anything that opposes them is good - regardless of its characteristics.
 

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
Can the left of today even define what 'fascism' is? Because as far as I can tell, whenever they're accusing anyone of being 'fash' they certainly don't mean the latter subscribe to a certain Italian totalitarian ideology with a protectionist & autarkic economic bent and an irredentist, warmongering foreign policy (along with, in general, a reverence for merciless violence which the present-day left also definitely exhibits). Instead I've seen the term applied to literally anyone ranging from Back the Blue types and the actual New Right, to mainstream Republicans like the Cheneys and Donald Rumsfeld, to even neoliberal American Democrats and the Danish Social Democrats (for that extremely brief moment in time when they pretended to be anti-mass immigration to win an election).

Considering commies have unironically considered milquetoast social democracy to = fascism in the past and the ease with which they throw the name of fascism around as an insult today, it sure as all hell seems that when they say they're 'antifascist', they actually mean they're anti-anything and anyone to the right of Madame Mao. This is true of both the tankies who still choke themselves on Stalin's boots and, much more popular with the youth of the modern day, so-called 'ancoms' and 'libsocs', the latter of whom are even quicker to violence than the former from what I've seen (you'll find them in, or cheering for, Antifa, while the latter seem to be more limited to Internet debates & academia).
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Considering commies (whether tankies or, more popular with the youth, 'ancoms'/'libsocs') have unironically considered milquetoast social democracy to = fascism in the past and the ease with which they throw the name of fascism around as an insult today, it sure as all hell seems that when they say they're 'antifascist', they actually mean they're anti-anything and anyone to the right of Madame Mao.

Which, duh, is their actual definition of fascism, as "non-communism"; for the reason that it's a lot better PR to say "we're fighting against fascism" than "we're fighting for communism".

This is true of both the tankies who still choke themselves on Stalin's boots and, much more popular with the youth of the modern day, so-called 'ancoms' and 'libsocs', the latter of whom are even quicker to violence than the former from what I've seen (you'll find them in, or cheering for, Antifa, while the latter seem to be more limited to Internet debates & academia).

The ancoms are even crazier than the tankies in general, they think they can go straight to Communist Utopia by one wild leap.
 
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Circle of Willis

Well-known member
Which, duh, is their actual definition of fascism, as "non-communism"; for the reason that it's a lot better PR to say "we're fighting against fascism" than "we're fighting for communism".
Well yes, that was what I was getting at. I'm sure calling oneself an 'antifascist' made sense if you were a militiaman of the Weimar-period Iron Front (which incidentally fought the KPD's street thugs on top of the brownshirts in their attempt to defend democracy, so it's hilarious that their Three Arrows symbol has been appropriated by the ideological descendants of the same people they thrashed on the regular). But in the present day, I've yet to see any evidence that it's just a nicer-sounding excuse for wanting to beat up anyone to the right of Madame Mao.
The ancoms are even crazier than the tankies in general, they think they can go straight to Communist Utopia by one wild leap.
OK so, storytime: for a little over a year now I have been lurking on a certain Discord server for, of all things, a Hearts of Iron mod that was made & is absolutely overrun by these so-called 'anarcho-communists' (pretty much all of whom are also avid 'antifascists'). That the mod's founder was also the founder of CHAZ (specifically, the lunatic who was begging for food donations within a day and had been chased off in a Twitter coup involving #MeToo allegations within another) & that they're infamous in the broader HOI4 community for interviewing a convicted domestic terrorist, Ray Luc Levasseur, and fondly referring to him as 'comrade' are all already extremely negative indicators of what to expect.

Now they've calmed down a bit since the aforementioned domestic terrorist scandal, because it was such an embarrassment that they had to kick the CHAZ founder out (despite this being his mod), and this has basically ground all their progress to a screeching halt. But man, was there some wild stuff going on while they were still active. From what I saw, they're extremely immature, intellectually stunted, emotionally reactionary (ironically) and unprincipled, and that's just when they aren't being totally bouncing-off-the-walls crazy.
  1. Among other things, despite claiming to support Hong Kong against the CCP, they all turned into wumao caricatures to try to drive out this one Hong Konger libertarian who made the mistake of joining the server. Since this didn't work, they eventually banned him outright.
  2. It has since been deleted in a general purge of their various chats out of fear at getting doxxed after The New Order (another, much bigger mod that actually made it to release) melted down back in February, but they regard CHAZ as an embarrassment. Late last autumn or so, they (including said CHAZ founder) reached a consensus on why CHAZ failed: the mean cops and Seattle gov't didn't break down the barricades which they themselves set up, patrol the neighborhoods constituting the commune, and give them free meals every day. You heard that right from the horse's mouth: last summer's great anarchic experiment fell apart because the evil state it revolted against just left it well enough alone instead of helping it every step of the way.
  3. In general they love to talk shit about what they'd get up to in the revolution and how eager they are to fight cops, NG and the US Army, but spend every other day whining about their personal problems in terms that'd make a teenage drama queen roll her eyes, and according to a poll they themselves conducted are overwhelmingly mid-to-late teens and early twenties - anarkiddies, if you will. From what I've had the misfortune to see I sincerely doubt they'd be able to stand up against someone who misgenders them or gives them a mean look IRL, much less actually last two seconds in a firefight.
  4. That they'd deflect any insinuation that Communism isn't perfect, on account of figures like Stalin or Pol Pot, by claiming the latter are 'red fascists' (also, the accuser should 'go read theory') and that their paradisaical version of Communism has yet to be tried is par for the course.
Suffice to say, I have not been impressed by what I've seen of 'ancoms' and 'antifascists' online. Also, I'll give the tankies this much credit: at least they don't lie to themselves about the necessity of state power in crushing their enemies and building their little Communist pet project.

I am convinced that if cut loose, and assuming they don't just break down when they hear mean things from their enemies' mouths, any ancom attempt at building the great red utopia would have few to no gulags in favor of being a charnel-house of constant September Massacres instead as they hunt down anyone (including their own and random innocents) that they deem to fall within the ever-expanding category of 'fascistic infiltrators'. So you know, basically what CHAZ was rapidly degenerating into before the Seattle Police Department mercifully put an end to that farce.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Can the left of today even define what 'fascism' is? Because as far as I can tell, whenever they're accusing anyone of being 'fash' they certainly don't mean the latter subscribe to a certain Italian totalitarian ideology with a protectionist & autarkic economic bent and an irredentist, warmongering foreign policy (along with, in general, a reverence for merciless violence which the present-day left also definitely exhibits). Instead I've seen the term applied to literally anyone ranging from Back the Blue types and the actual New Right, to mainstream Republicans like the Cheneys and Donald Rumsfeld, to even neoliberal American Democrats and the Danish Social Democrats (for that extremely brief moment in time when they pretended to be anti-mass immigration to win an election).

Considering commies have unironically considered milquetoast social democracy to = fascism in the past and the ease with which they throw the name of fascism around as an insult today, it sure as all hell seems that when they say they're 'antifascist', they actually mean they're anti-anything and anyone to the right of Madame Mao. This is true of both the tankies who still choke themselves on Stalin's boots and, much more popular with the youth of the modern day, so-called 'ancoms' and 'libsocs', the latter of whom are even quicker to violence than the former from what I've seen (you'll find them in, or cheering for, Antifa, while the latter seem to be more limited to Internet debates & academia).

Fascism is everything that opposes our Glorious Revolution, Comrade! In fact, from what I have seen, many Communists define fascism as traditionalism, nevermind the fact that fascism was in many ways a progressive ideology. So if you want to preserve anything - anything - you are automatically a fascist. Progressivism / Marxism is a deconstructivist philosophy which believes that existing structures have to be torn down for the sake of utopia. Thus conservatism and especially traditionalism are, to them, existential threats.

But truth doesn't matter. Because in the end, purpose of such terminology is to force everybody to accept Left's ideals. One of major reasons why Right is losing is that they have accepted Leftist terminology.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
But truth doesn't matter. Because in the end, purpose of such terminology is to force everybody to accept Left's ideals. One of major reasons why Right is losing is that they have accepted Leftist terminology.

It's not just the words, it's how issues are framed, the underlying assumptions and unspoken premises.

Example: Equality. What does it mean?
Everyone can vote, stand for public office, own property, etc, not just a small elite?
Or - everyone must be made "equal" in every way, and no one should be permitted to be better off, or even just better, than anyone else?

The Left actually has come to choose the latter.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Antifascism is the idea of opposing fascism so that its evils would not repeat. It is nice, optimistic and logical.

It is also incredibly stupid.

Main problem with authoritharian, genocidal regimes is never the ideology itself. Genocide can be done by intent, or it can happen by accident. It can be a product of hate, or done in order to reach an utopian paradise. But one common theme is the excess of central control. It is not ideology that is lethal, but rather the very fact of an overpowerful state.

But antifascism, by shifting the focus on the ideology, actually promotes the idea of a powerful state that can hold the ideology in check. In that way, it supports the evil which it professes to oppose. Thus it should come to no surprise that self-proclaimed antifascists act exactly like fascists they claim to oppose. Instead of looking at what made fascism evil and murderous, idea itself is presented as inherently evil and murderous - with implicit statement that even almost-exactly-the-same ideas cannot be (as) evil, because they are "not fascism"; as if it is the very word "fascism" which made the ideology genocidal. As a result, Communism and communist mass murderers are often given a free pass - such as Josip Broz Tito, who is often seen as a good person opposed to fascist Ante Pavelić, despite the fact that he killed possibly even more people than Pavelić did. But Pavelić = fascist = evil, Tito = antifascist = anti-evil = good. Or at least that is the logic which Croatian Communists such as Ivo Goldstein and Tvrtko Jakovina.

The conflict between Nazism and Fascism on one side and Communism on the other side is treated similarly. Nazism and Fascism oppose modern-day ideals, and are thus evil, whereas Communism claims it will create a paradise, and is therefore a "good idea". But few people ask what is the cost of a paradise, and how far will the justification of paradise on earth take us. Modern Left sneers at Crusaders for waging a war for the idea of heavenly salvation, while at the same time doing the exact same thing - but far more stupid, because paradise on Earth has been proven to be unachievable, through governmental intervention at least.

But the very idea of utopia, of "just" society, being possible, is dangerous. It can be, and is, used as a justification for incredibly destructive and psychotic behaviour - because society resulting from it will be "better". Flood of blood can be justified by the brighter future, nevermind that said brighter future is unachievable garbage most of the time - or even in and by itself, evil. To achieve anything good, it is necessary to be able to think critically. And antifascism attacks the very idea of critical thought, because it simplifies philosophy and ideology into simple good-bad pattern, where certain ideologies are bad and anything that opposes them is good - regardless of its characteristics.

All true.
But we must remember,that antifa was created by Stalin before WW2 to gather useful idiots for helping soviets without being officially soviets.
Many idiots fall for that,and many more would follow.

But,at least we have thanks to that IQ test - if somebody is antifa,then either he is agent,or idiot.In both cases,you could just ignore him.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
All true.
But we must remember,that antifa was created by Stalin before WW2 to gather useful idiots for helping soviets without being officially soviets.
Many idiots fall for that,and many more would follow.

But,at least we have thanks to that IQ test - if somebody is antifa,then either he is agent,or idiot.In both cases,you could just ignore him.

Not so easy to "just ignore" a mob of them running riot on the streets.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Not so easy to "just ignore" a mob of them running riot on the streets.
In Poland we must do that,becouse commies take our guns and ruling socilalist do not gave them again.But in USA - you could deal with them.
 

Lazer Raptor

Marxist-Lesbianist
But antifascism, by shifting the focus on the ideology, actually promotes the idea of a powerful state that can hold the ideology in check. In that way, it supports the evil which it professes to oppose. Thus it should come to no surprise that self-proclaimed antifascists act exactly like fascists they claim to oppose. Instead of looking at what made fascism evil and murderous, idea itself is presented as inherently evil and murderous - with implicit statement that even almost-exactly-the-same ideas cannot be (as) evil, because they are "not fascism"; as if it is the very word "fascism" which made the ideology genocidal. As a result, Communism and communist mass murderers are often given a free pass - such as Josip Broz Tito, who is often seen as a good person opposed to fascist Ante Pavelić, despite the fact that he killed possibly even more people than Pavelić did. But Pavelić = fascist = evil, Tito = antifascist = anti-evil = good. Or at least that is the logic which Croatian Communists such as Ivo Goldstein and Tvrtko Jakovina.
The Ustaše are generally estimated to have murdered 360,000 people at minimum out of a population of around 7 million people, which is approximately three times the highest estimates of victims of Titoist repression enacted on a population twice the size. They furthermore openly declared their intention to murder a third of the Serbs within their territory and deport another third, and were infamously brutal enough in their killings to be condemned by the Wehrmacht of all people. If allowed to persist, it is almost certain they would have continued killing enormous numbers of people, because unlike the Communists, the massacre of Serbs, of Roma, of Bosnians, and of Jews was core to their ideology.

Bluntly speaking, the two groups are not equivalent in any sense of the word, and this is potentially one of the worst possible examples you could have picked.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
The Ustaše are generally estimated to have murdered 360,000 people at minimum out of a population of around 7 million people, which is approximately three times the highest estimates of victims of Titoist repression enacted on a population twice the size. They furthermore openly declared their intention to murder a third of the Serbs within their territory and deport another third, and were infamously brutal enough in their killings to be condemned by the Wehrmacht of all people. If allowed to persist, it is almost certain they would have continued killing enormous numbers of people, because unlike the Communists, the massacre of Serbs, of Roma, of Bosnians, and of Jews was core to their ideology.

Bluntly speaking, the two groups are not equivalent in any sense of the word, and this is potentially one of the worst possible examples you could have picked.

Nope. Highest estimates of victims of Communist repression go well into a low million mark. Also, Yugoslavia as a whole lost maybe 700 000 to at most 1 million people during World War II out of a population of 15 400 000. NDH was hardly any worse than other Nazi regimes, and you also have to add there the people killed by the bombardments, by the Germans, Italians, Partisans... the number of 360 000 that you mention is far from impossible, but it is also definitely not a "minimum" number.

Evidenced number of dead of Communist repression - that is, only those that are actually recorded / dug up, not the estimates - goes to 190 000 dead in mass graves in Slovenia and Croatia, and 50 000 dead members of German minority. In addition, you can add some 460 000 soldiers and civilians killed by Partisans (est. by Bruno Bušić) during the war itself. This means that Axis regimes in Yugoslavia - of which NDH had 45% of population - killed 240 - 540 thousand people. So again, your 360 000 number is either middle number or even a maximum estimate, not the minimum one.

As for the rest... that "one third" phrase appears often, but I have never found any evidence for it (or against it, but... burden of proof). Considering that the phrase is often repeated by the people who made up Srbosjek, I am not in a hurry to give it any weight. As for killing being condemned by Wehrmacht, that again had nothing to do with brutality, but rather by basic counterinsurgency tactics... by that time the Wehrmacht had significant experience of what their own brutal murders did in occupied parts of USSR (hint: they definitely did not help reduce the insurgent activity). But brutal murders were a rule of the war in Balkans, and both sides did it as a basic military logic - if you can't destroy the enemy army, you destroy its support structure. And that meant population.

So again... both sides were broadly equivalent in how war-crimey they were, and it is indeed possible that Tito killed far more people than Pavelić did.
 
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BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
Considering the damage antifa has done to america financially and the people that have been killed by antifa, it's safe to say that antifa is 100x worse than any right wing group. Despite the claims of the ruling commies.
Like, how many fires have the proud boys started?
AFAIK, zero.
antifa on the other hand . . . they're probably still setting fires as I type
 

ATP

Well-known member
The Ustaše are generally estimated to have murdered 360,000 people at minimum out of a population of around 7 million people, which is approximately three times the highest estimates of victims of Titoist repression enacted on a population twice the size. They furthermore openly declared their intention to murder a third of the Serbs within their territory and deport another third, and were infamously brutal enough in their killings to be condemned by the Wehrmacht of all people. If allowed to persist, it is almost certain they would have continued killing enormous numbers of people, because unlike the Communists, the massacre of Serbs, of Roma, of Bosnians, and of Jews was core to their ideology.

Bluntly speaking, the two groups are not equivalent in any sense of the word, and this is potentially one of the worst possible examples you could have picked.

Killing not only all who oppose commies,but also all belonging to "wrong class" is actually core of commie ideology.
That is why,in all places where they get full power they created mass graves full of their "enemies".
If they win in USA,that would be the same.

What made commie worst then germans are their lies.One of polish patriots/jew/ said that if he must die,he would choose to be killed by germans - becouse they would say truth that they kill him as jew and polish patriot,when soviet would lie that he was Poland traitor.
And making children of victim learn poems about murderers of their parents.German,at least,do not teach children poems about gestapo.Soviets teach poems about NKWD.
 
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Yinko

Well-known member
Nazism and Fascism oppose modern-day ideals, and are thus evil, whereas Communism claims it will create a paradise, and is therefore a "good idea".
Fascism taken in its own context is just as utopian as Communism. It seeks to avoid the perils of capitalism, disunity, social decay, and a lack of sovereignty. It just so happens to do this via means that we don't care for... just as Communism does in fact. The difference is not that Fascism is not utoptian and thus not good, but rather that it has a metric ton of comically bad branding laid against it, especially in comparison to Communism which often gets a bit of a free pass in modern media.

My own thinking is that any "utopian" ideology has failed from the starting line. But that's just me.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Fascism taken in its own context is just as utopian as Communism. It seeks to avoid the perils of capitalism, disunity, social decay, and a lack of sovereignty. It just so happens to do this via means that we don't care for... just as Communism does in fact. The difference is not that Fascism is not utoptian and thus not good, but rather that it has a metric ton of comically bad branding laid against it, especially in comparison to Communism which often gets a bit of a free pass in modern media.

My own thinking is that any "utopian" ideology has failed from the starting line. But that's just me.

Agreed. But fascism is kinda more honest about its nature, or at least that is the impression I have gained.
 

ATP

Well-known member
The issue is that we never really had a reckoning with communism in the same way that we had with fascism, nor did western European countries get first-hand experience of living under communism.
Yes.I almost pity,that Stalin do not lived long enough to start WW3 and accupy most of Western Europe.In the end he would lost,but after living in gulag surviving french and others would be as immune to leftism as eastern europe.
 

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