Religion Christian Society Grooming (or Lack Thereof)

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
But in the past there were anti popes you could point too and say they are the real pope who do sedevacants point too.

Nobody. That's what Sedevacantism means - that the "chair" is empty. That there is no living pope, and has not been since the death of Pius XII.
For those old-school, pre-Vatican2 Papists who can see that what the RCC now teaches on certain things they regard as very important completely contradicts what it used to teach, but are unwilling to take the full Sedevacantist blackpill, there seems to be a "copium" version according to which there's still a "true" pope hiding somewhere, but he's unable to do his job because of the imposter one. Or something like that.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
Really? Because the quote I see most often used to support "caring for refugees, strangers and foreigners" is actually talking about how Israelites are about to conquer a foreign land and please do not be asshats to people you are about to conquer.

That is very, very different from allow half the world to settle into your home.

If you're talking about the invasion of Canaan under Joshua, they were supposed to exterminate the people they were about to conquer.

There's a huge, huge difference between showing kindness to one stranger who visits your land, and a mob of them who move in with the intention of taking over.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
On the one hand, a person who strongly desires to obey God, and does not trust the leaders of organized religion to give him proper guidance on that, so he studies the Bible himself.

On the other hand, a person who says "I decide for myself what's right or wrong! I don't need the approval of any god!"

Do you really not understand the difference?
I have to wonder if he really doesn't get the difference.
or if he is just pretending not to.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
While there are individual christians who are super dogmatic. Actually christianity had the opposite issue of being hyper tolerant of opposing view points.
Which is why there are:
1. so many different christian denominations.
2. every christian nation allowed non christians to flourish.

Go try opening a church of satanism in Istanbul.

Sounds like you had a personal bad experience with an ultra religious christian family and then decided to blame all of the world's ills on it. Ignoring actual reality.
You are making Christians look bad, and Muslims look good. Letting satanists be out in public is not a good thing.
Ask historians studying Mesopotamian history, or the Buddhists who consider doing too much good wrong for getting in the way of ceasing to exist. There's been lots of times that morality didn't contain a particularly significant "afterlife" imperative. And having literally all the rules set non-negotiably by a single totally unaccountable force with a binary "suffer forever" or "everlasting peace" is decidedly different from the variety of middle-grounds and demand for exceptional character to have the "good" ending, one so emotionally dissonant that the idea of "limbo" was bullshitted into being whole cloth to cover "wait, what about my mother who died just the week before you showed up?"
Yeah you are leaving out a few things out there bud. You are wrong about the Buddhists. SOME Buddhist monastics think getting too involved in doing good is bad for you because it shows attachment to the world, when the way to achieve nirvana is to be disassociated and have no attachments. And even then they say to not do evil and get bad karma. Trying to farm good karma is what they warn about, AND it only applies to monks because the only people that are actively going for nirvana(whether it is becoming a Buddha, or non existance is up for debate) are the monks. Those who aren't monks are not going to become Buddhas so they are simply trying to build up good karma to get a better future life, or get into heaven(it's temporary).

Judaism's legalistic shenanigans are well known and the exclusivity of the Covenant draws a line between "moral person" and "doctrinal adherence" (the usury shenanigans behind the Happy Merchant stereotype are the perfect example), while Islam is much the same sort of attempted "successor" to Christianity that Mormonism is, only formed by syncretizing local popular schismatic veins and working things out as expansion went along instead of one cult leader making shit up in a bulk lot then moving forward with it.
Judaism actually does require "doctrinal adherence" While only Jews have to follow all 600 plus commandments. All other humans must follow the 7 laws of Noah. One of which is to be a monotheist and not do idolotry.

You consciously understand and bluntly admit that Asian cultures do not suffer these problems because there's no imperative to be a jackass to homosexuals, then immediately state that this is wholly unacceptable to solve the problem solely on the basis of "Because God Said So".

You are perfectly demonstrating what I loath about "singular moral authority" religion as a category. It does not matter to you one wit if I were to directly show to you that proper Christian doctrine being followed directly caused the deaths of millions in materially pointless cruelty, so long as you can be convinced God said so you will accept anything, because you have wholly abandoned your reason and will to blind faith, you totalitarian theocratic piece of shit.
Yes because I trust God the creator of the universe the one who knows all, and the final judge more than some unwashed nerd on the internet. If he says something is banned it is not for us to question why. If we can figure out the reason behind the prohibition great! But if we don't know why he gave it we still follow it as we put our faith in God.

Also you are getting ridiculously angry like I'm the one who imposed these prohibitions, I'm not God, I'm not even Constantine or any other Bishop who had religious and secular power to prosecute gays. What's done is done, western society has this this scenario is analagous to putting a ball with air under water or riding a tiger as long as we hold on everything will be fine. But if we let go the opposite reaction will hit us in the face. What's done is done we can't copy the Asian model unless western civilization falls apart we either let the globohomo get everything they want, OR we have Christians have power and HOLD THE DAMN BALL, and oppress anyone who wants to get rid of Christian power as that would just let the ball hit us in the face.

I think I see part of the root problem here.

You think we believe in a hilariously caricaturized strawman of individualism.

I suppose it's not that surprising.
I mean it seems like you are doing a schrodinger's individualism/collectivism thing. It's the same thing some American fiscal conservatives do when debates about universal healthcare or anything of that nature. They say it's socialism/communism, then they argue that Japan, or Norway or whatever are not communist/socialist whatever. Point I'm saying is you were being all "Yes western society and individualism is great!"

Really? Because the quote I see most often used to support "caring for refugees, strangers and foreigners" is actually talking about how Israelites are about to conquer a foreign land and please do not be asshats to people you are about to conquer.

That is very, very different from allow half the world to settle into your home.
You are trying to live up to the sterotype of a Catholic who doesen't know what's in the Bible are you?

EXODUS 22:21

"Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt."

LEVITICUS 19:10

"Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner. I am the Lord your God."

LEVITICUS 19:34

"The foreigners residing among you must be treated as native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God."

DEUTERONOMY 10:18

"He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing."

PSALM 146:9

"The Lord watches over the foreigner and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked."

ZECHARIAH 7:10

"Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the foreigner or the poor. Do not plot evil against each other."

MATTHEW 25:35

"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in."

HEBREWS 13:1-2

"Keep on loving one another as brothers and sisters. Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers for by doing that some have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it."


Matthew 25:40 - 45
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
"What, you care more about the state of your own soul than about working to make religious leaders richer? How daaare you!"
There is nothing wrong with caring about the state of your own soul, that should be your first priority. Yet as anyone who has read the Bible, and looked at early Church history should know, you are supposed to obey earthly leaders AS well as those who have spiritual authority that was passed down from the apostles of Christ. Bishops and such, if they abuse that authority to amass power and wealth then God will punish them.

On the one hand, a person who strongly desires to obey God, and does not trust the leaders of organized religion to give him proper guidance on that, so he studies the Bible himself.

On the other hand, a person who says "I decide for myself what's right or wrong! I don't need the approval of any god!"

Do you really not understand the difference?
There is a difference of course, if the person is truly the first group and is a hermit that is fine. But unless they are ignorant they should know that God has ordered the Church protestants like to use the Bible a lot and say the Church should not have ranks and anything like that. Yet the Bible itself has one rank in it Bishop it is referred in Timothy. Christians are called to worship together, there is order in how the worship is done, priests to Bishops. Bishops have authority priests have authority. Corrupt priests are a problem yes, but reading about history of the church and the early heresy of donatism should make you realize that that Christians must obey the Church the priest may not be perfect but unless he is ordering you to do something directly against God a heresy he still has a position in the Church unless something happens to remove it from him. Are you saying that the Donatists were right?

Nobody. That's what Sedevacantism means - that the "chair" is empty. That there is no living pope, and has not been since the death of Pius XII.
For those old-school, pre-Vatican2 Papists who can see that what the RCC now teaches on certain things they regard as very important completely contradicts what it used to teach, but are unwilling to take the full Sedevacantist blackpill, there seems to be a "copium" version according to which there's still a "true" pope hiding somewhere, but he's unable to do his job because of the imposter one. Or something like that.
Doesen't that fuck with apostolic succession? Not the ones who think there is a true pope. But if they think the seat is empty isn't that a big issue? The whole point of apostolic succession is that part of the Church's authority is they have an unbroken chain of laying on hands from the lowest priest to Bishops and it goes on back through history to one of the apostles and the apostles who received their authority from Christ himself.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
You are making Christians look bad, and Muslims look good. Letting satanists be out in public is not a good thing.
1. I am an atheist from jewish family. "making christians look good" is not my job.

2. You are correct. This does make muslims look good, and christians look like a bunch of cucks.

3. I was specifically replying to your explicit claim that christians are dogmatic extremists who are the most intolerant group ever and that said extreme christian intolerance of those who disagree with them is the cause of every world ill after the 20th century.

4. Frankly. your ridiculous statements are making us atheists look bad. please stop representing us.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
1. I am an atheist from jewish family. "making christians look good" is not my job.

2. You are correct. This does make muslims look good, and christians look like a bunch of cucks.

3. I was specifically replying to your explicit claim that christians are dogmatic extremists who are the most intolerant group ever and that said extreme christian intolerance of those who disagree with them is the cause of every world ill after the 20th century.

4. Frankly. your ridiculous statements are making us atheists look bad. please stop representing us.
Regarding number 3 and 4.
Umm you are confusing me with that morphic tide guy.

I did not say Christian intolerance is responsible for all ills after the 20th century.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
1. I am an atheist from jewish family. "making christians look good" is not my job.

2. You are correct. This does make muslims look good, and christians look like a bunch of cucks.

3. I was specifically replying to your explicit claim that christians are dogmatic extremists who are the most intolerant group ever and that said extreme christian intolerance of those who disagree with them is the cause of every world ill after the 20th century.

4. Frankly. your ridiculous statements are making us atheists look bad. please stop representing us.

You know you can always return to temple when ever you want.

A seat in the tribe is always open for you when your ready.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
You are trying to live up to the sterotype of a Catholic who doesen't know what's in the Bible are you?
Good thing I'm not a Catholic.

EXODUS 22:21

"Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt."

LEVITICUS 19:10

"Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner. I am the Lord your God."

LEVITICUS 19:34

"The foreigners residing among you must be treated as native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God."

DEUTERONOMY 10:18

"He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing."

PSALM 146:9

"The Lord watches over the foreigner and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked."

ZECHARIAH 7:10

"Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the foreigner or the poor. Do not plot evil against each other."

MATTHEW 25:35

"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in."

HEBREWS 13:1-2

"Keep on loving one another as brothers and sisters. Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers for by doing that some have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it."


Matthew 25:40 - 45
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And again, none of that necessitates supporting mass immigration...
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
Doesen't that fuck with apostolic succession?

Totally. The Roman Catholic version of it anyway.

Not the ones who think there is a true pope. But if they think the seat is empty isn't that a big issue? The whole point of apostolic succession is that part of the Church's authority is they have an unbroken chain of laying on hands from the lowest priest to Bishops and it goes on back through history to one of the apostles and the apostles who received their authority from Christ himself.
Which they actually don't, but let's keep on topic..

The Sedevacantist position, from what I understand of it, is that the Pope must be a Catholic, or he isn't a real Pope. That someone who is a formal heretic, who denies things traditionally taught as dogma by "The Church" and affirmed by previous popes, simply does not qualify. So if they appoint someone like that as Pope, they can pretend he's the Pope, but actually that means that there's not a real one.

The second - and important - point is that measured by the standard of what was historically taught by the RCC prior to Vatican II, all of the popes that came after that are heretical. Because Vatican II changed key teachings of the RCC.
They in particular would not like Borgoglio/Francis, a tick whose hairiness is gradually becoming undeniable, but they were taking this line long before "Fake Pope Frankie" showed up.

From within the Sacramentalist worldview these people hold, the consequences of this would be catastrophic. It would mean that none of the bishops appointed as such by Francis, or Benedict, or JP, etc are real ones. Which means any bishopy things they do have no real spiritual validity. Which means any priests they've appointed are not "real" priests at all...
... which means that both ordinary Joe Catholic who's been faithfully going to confession all these years, believing he's been getting Absolution, and the priest he's been confessing to who believes that he's been granting him Absolution.... are completely wrong! It's all fake. Ditto baptism, Last Rites, Mass, etc etc.

(Personally, thinking about this stuff makes me happy not to be part of a religion in which one's own faith could all be for nothing, because somebody else was a heretic or an unbeliever!)
 

King Arts

Well-known member
Good thing I'm not a Catholic.

And again, none of that necessitates supporting mass immigration...
Are you unable to read? Care for the stranger who comes to you, Jesus Christ himself was a refugee to Egypt for a while when leaving Judea.

If you are being greedy you are sinning. The refugees are not taking bread from you or your children's mouth if they are then there is a Christian argument to stop. But the problem with refugees is not that they are draining our resources. The problem is two fold, it's crime and a differance in culture. A Christian nation could easily handle those in a multitude of ways. But there aren't any Christian nations most of the west is secular, so Christians should not prioritize the wellness of secular states over the morality of Christian ideals.

Totally. The Roman Catholic version of it anyway.


Which they actually don't, but let's keep on topic..

The Sedevacantist position, from what I understand of it, is that the Pope must be a Catholic, or he isn't a real Pope. That someone who is a formal heretic, who denies things traditionally taught as dogma by "The Church" and affirmed by previous popes, simply does not qualify. So if they appoint someone like that as Pope, they can pretend he's the Pope, but actually that means that there's not a real one.

The second - and important - point is that measured by the standard of what was historically taught by the RCC prior to Vatican II, all of the popes that came after that are heretical. Because Vatican II changed key teachings of the RCC.
They in particular would not like Borgoglio/Francis, a tick whose hairiness is gradually becoming undeniable, but they were taking this line long before "Fake Pope Frankie" showed up.

From within the Sacramentalist worldview these people hold, the consequences of this would be catastrophic. It would mean that none of the bishops appointed as such by Francis, or Benedict, or JP, etc are real ones. Which means any bishopy things they do have no real spiritual validity. Which means any priests they've appointed are not "real" priests at all...
... which means that both ordinary Joe Catholic who's been faithfully going to confession all these years, believing he's been getting Absolution, and the priest he's been confessing to who believes that he's been granting him Absolution.... are completely wrong! It's all fake. Ditto baptism, Last Rites, Mass, etc etc.

(Personally, thinking about this stuff makes me happy not to be part of a religion in which one's own faith could all be for nothing, because somebody else was a heretic or an unbeliever!)

I saw this video from a Catholic that deals with this. I don't agree with everything he said because I'm not Catholic I'm Orthodox. But his arguments against Sedevacantists is true they are trying to have their cake and eat it too their position is logically inconsistent.

Also that last paragraph makes me think that sedevacantists are going into heresy. Since that is donatism
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Are you unable to read? Care for the stranger who comes to you, Jesus Christ himself was a refugee to Egypt for a while when leaving Judea.

If you are being greedy you are sinning. The refugees are not taking bread from you or your children's mouth if they are then there is a Christian argument to stop. But the problem with refugees is not that they are draining our resources. The problem is two fold, it's crime and a differance in culture. A Christian nation could easily handle those in a multitude of ways. But there aren't any Christian nations most of the west is secular, so Christians should not prioritize the wellness of secular states over the morality of Christian ideals.
The "refugees" are in fact taking bread from me and my children, they are in fact a clear physical danger seeing how diverse societies are always violent screwups. Accepting immigrants - the real refugees would have intention to return back where they came from as soon as possible - does mean endangering yourself and your own offspring, and no, there is no way Christian nation can handle that.

Also, "care for stranger who comes to you" =/= "let him stay forever and ever".
 

ATP

Well-known member
Christian society existed once,but revolutions destroyed it.First was one made by Luder,next in 1789,next in 1917.
Now, 4 or 5 revolution is destroing what was left of Chrystianitas.
And,since pope speak like heretic,it is no hope for making it again.

P.S Read "Revolution and counter revolution" by Plinio Correa de Oliveira.
He explained very well,why first revolution must lead to others,till notching is left.
 
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Scottty

Well-known member
Founder

I saw this video from a Catholic that deals with this. I don't agree with everything he said because I'm not Catholic I'm Orthodox. But his arguments against Sedevacantists is true they are trying to have their cake and eat it too their position is logically inconsistent.

Also that last paragraph makes me think that sedevacantists are going into heresy. Since that is donatism


Heh. I've myself made the point about Sedevacantists essentially being a type of Protestant. They are protesting what they see as the RCC going into error.
If the RCC really wanted to conciliate with them, surely the proper thing would be to try to convince them that the Vatican II changes like non-Latin mass are not really a huge break from what was considered the norm before. But no. Their line seems to be "it's our show, we get to decide the rules and change them as we please, are you with us or not?"
Do they ever try to address the doctrinal questions at all?

As for the video - interesting. I'd had no idea that the Old Catholic sect even still existed. But I have to wonder if that guy has a clue how blatantly circular his reasoning is? It boils down to "your arguments are invalid because they contradict my beliefs" , though not in so many words. But clearly he thinks his "The Church" to automatically be in the right simply because they say that they are.
Ooooh if you don't believe exactly like the bishops say, you'll end up... believing differently from them! (So?)

One is left with the impression that a good little Catholic is expected to hang up his brain and believe whatever "The Church" teaches, even if it flatly contradicts what those same people were teaching yesterday, and if they change their story again tomorrow, then believe that and forget they ever taught otherwise, because they are always right because they say they are, two plus two equals whatever number The Party says it does, and Oceania Has Always Been At War With Eastasia.

Start to notice the inconsistencies, want clarification on the doubletalk, ask questions that the people in robes and hats either cannot or do not want to answer.. and you're being like a Protestant! (As if there were anything wrong with that.)
Because - he makes this explicit - an ordinary RCC pew-warmer is not supposed to approach the teachings of that religion like an intelligent adult!
 

ParadiseLost

Well-known member
Because - he makes this explicit - an ordinary RCC pew-warmer is not supposed to approach the teachings of that religion like an intelligent adult!
You don't have to be a six-footer
You don't have to have a great brain
You don't have to have any clothes on
You're a Catholic the moment Dad came!
 

King Arts

Well-known member
The "refugees" are in fact taking bread from me and my children, they are in fact a clear physical danger seeing how diverse societies are always violent screwups. Accepting immigrants - the real refugees would have intention to return back where they came from as soon as possible - does mean endangering yourself and your own offspring, and no, there is no way Christian nation can handle that.

Also, "care for stranger who comes to you" =/= "let him stay forever and ever".
They aren't taking bread from you, because your social services aren't breaking from that. Your nations are rich and wealthy, taking bread means that now you can't afford, food shelter, medicine. Hell I'll even be generous and say it also means you can't spend it on luxuries. Tell me what would your nation have spent the money being used to house refugees on if there were no refugees? Just having more isn't enough. You aren't facing a lack of something.

As for high crime, no diverse societies are not always violent screwups. They can be but no, it's your liberal nations that are causing them to be screwups on many levels. For example a Christian nation would have dealt with the violent refugees in two ways. One the criminals and rapists would have been executed as that is the valid punishment for those crimes. Traditional Islamic societies also impose those punishments.
Second Christian societies would put in laws and regulations to stop women dressing and acting like whores and putting themselves in situations where they would get raped. Muslim nations do that in their home countries. The ones that aren't in the middle of a war have low crime rates, according to Andrew Tate. He is a biased source to be fair, but I haven't been to the UAE or Qatar, or Saudi but I've heard good things about it.

Heh. I've myself made the point about Sedevacantists essentially being a type of Protestant. They are protesting what they see as the RCC going into error.
If the RCC really wanted to conciliate with them, surely the proper thing would be to try to convince them that the Vatican II changes like non-Latin mass are not really a huge break from what was considered the norm before. But no. Their line seems to be "it's our show, we get to decide the rules and change them as we please, are you with us or not?"
Do they ever try to address the doctrinal questions at all?
I mean they are supposed to obey. To use an example from the Bible, did Moses try to "address the doctrinal questions" of Korah and their ilk? Here is the thing, worship of God is not a democracy. It is an autocracy, you must obey God, and you must also obey those God has put in positions of authority.
As for the video - interesting. I'd had no idea that the Old Catholic sect even still existed. But I have to wonder if that guy has a clue how blatantly circular his reasoning is? It boils down to "your arguments are invalid because they contradict my beliefs" , though not in so many words. But clearly he thinks his "The Church" to automatically be in the right simply because they say that they are.
Ooooh if you don't believe exactly like the bishops say, you'll end up... believing differently from them! (So?)
I mean if you are a Catholic who accepted the 1st Vatican council but not the 2nd it's not circular. Because they already fell into the trap by accepting papal infallibility. Though again you might be a bit too harsh, because he did say that Bishops don't have the authority to speak on things beyond faith and morals. But when they do you can't disrespect them you don't have to obey everything but you still must be respectful.

One is left with the impression that a good little Catholic is expected to hang up his brain and believe whatever "The Church" teaches, even if it flatly contradicts what those same people were teaching yesterday, and if they change their story again tomorrow, then believe that and forget they ever taught otherwise, because they are always right because they say they are, two plus two equals whatever number The Party says it does, and Oceania Has Always Been At War With Eastasia.

Start to notice the inconsistencies, want clarification on the doubletalk, ask questions that the people in robes and hats either cannot or do not want to answer.. and you're being like a Protestant! (As if there were anything wrong with that.)
Because - he makes this explicit - an ordinary RCC pew-warmer is not supposed to approach the teachings of that religion like an intelligent adult!
I mean again Christianity is not about being a "free thinker" Like you can look at the Bible the faithful are described as a flock of sheep. What do sheep do, they follow. We are supposed to be sheeple heh. God does punish rebellion, so the sheep are expected to obey the shepherd, and those who are set to watch over the flock, but God also punished harshly false teachers who lead the sheep astray. Their punishment is much worse than one who simply sins. Leading others into sin is a compound sin, especially if you are in a position of authority.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
They aren't taking bread from you, because your social services aren't breaking from that. Your nations are rich and wealthy, taking bread means that now you can't afford, food shelter, medicine. Hell I'll even be generous and say it also means you can't spend it on luxuries. Tell me what would your nation have spent the money being used to house refugees on if there were no refugees? Just having more isn't enough. You aren't facing a lack of something.

As for high crime, no diverse societies are not always violent screwups. They can be but no, it's your liberal nations that are causing them to be screwups on many levels. For example a Christian nation would have dealt with the violent refugees in two ways. One the criminals and rapists would have been executed as that is the valid punishment for those crimes. Traditional Islamic societies also impose those punishments.
Second Christian societies would put in laws and regulations to stop women dressing and acting like whores and putting themselves in situations where they would get raped. Muslim nations do that in their home countries. The ones that aren't in the middle of a war have low crime rates, according to Andrew Tate. He is a biased source to be fair, but I haven't been to the UAE or Qatar, or Saudi but I've heard good things about it.
This is just wrong.

1) Yes, social services are breaking because of the immigrants. It is not just monetary costs which you are so ignorantly focused on. Social costs are far greater, and these impact everything.
2) Yes, diverse societies are always violent, and often screwups as well. Look at literally any large trade city of antiquity or middle ages (Constantinople, Alexandria): violence and violent crime were endemic. And it wasn't access to weapons or lack of control. No, the only factor which all violent cities, and violent societies, always had in common, were high levels of ethnic diversity. That was long before modern liberalism appeared, so you can't blame it for that. Those punishments you propose did little to fix said issues despite being far more prevalent back then, too.
3) In a functioning society, women would not dress as whores, but men also would have enough self-restraint not to rape them even if they did. People dress similarly all across Europe. Why is rape rate so much higher in e.g. Sweden than it is in Eastern Europe?
%28A%29_Rape_rates_per_100000_population_2010-2012%2C_world.jpg

Again, the only possible explanation here are high levels of diversity causing crime.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
This is just wrong.

1) Yes, social services are breaking because of the immigrants. It is not just monetary costs which you are so ignorantly focused on. Social costs are far greater, and these impact everything.
2) Yes, diverse societies are always violent, and often screwups as well. Look at literally any large trade city of antiquity or middle ages (Constantinople, Alexandria): violence and violent crime were endemic. And it wasn't access to weapons or lack of control. No, the only factor which all violent cities, and violent societies, always had in common, were high levels of ethnic diversity. That was long before modern liberalism appeared, so you can't blame it for that. Those punishments you propose did little to fix said issues despite being far more prevalent back then, too.
3) In a functioning society, women would not dress as whores, but men also would have enough self-restraint not to rape them even if they did. People dress similarly all across Europe. Why is rape rate so much higher in e.g. Sweden than it is in Eastern Europe?
%28A%29_Rape_rates_per_100000_population_2010-2012%2C_world.jpg

Again, the only possible explanation here are high levels of diversity causing crime.
Muh social costs. Prove it, you say large trade cities of antiquity were more crime ridden prove it. Prove that Constantinople had more crime than London because of "diversity" instead of being larger, or that the other trade cities like Venice, or Florence had more crime than large Chinese cities where everyone was Chinese? Again statistics like that don't exist in the middle ages.

Also look at your chart there are arab places where there is less of a rape rate, Swedeen and the UK are worse than Algeria, Morroco, Egypt or Turkey. And by the way Turkey is a very diverse nation it has muslims, a small but persecuted Christian minority. Arabs, Turks, and Kurds. So no it's something else, it's the leadership of those nations being either stupid or evil.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Muh social costs. Prove it, you say large trade cities of antiquity were more crime ridden prove it. Prove that Constantinople had more crime than London because of "diversity" instead of being larger, or that the other trade cities like Venice, or Florence had more crime than large Chinese cities where everyone was Chinese? Again statistics like that don't exist in the middle ages.
Even superficial reading of various riots in Constantinople will show that they very often (not always, but often) had ethnic element to them. Siege of Constantinople in 1204. was triggered by riots aimed against Latins. And yes, larger cities had more crime - in large part because they were more diverse, as all of the largest cities were also major trade ports.

Regarding Empire in general, Samaritans in particular regularly rebelled, which led to their persecution by Zeno and their virtual destruction under Justinian. Jews, Arabs and other minorities within the Empre in many cases actively assisted Persian and Arab conquest during the 7th century. Anatolia resisted because it, and especially its elites, were predominantly Greek. Anatolia was only conquered when mass immigration by Turks pushed out its sedentary Greek population, replacing it by Turkic nomads. This however was only made possible by then-still significant ethnic heterogeneity of Anatolia, which was made worse by previous forced migration of Armenians to Anatolia.
Also look at your chart there are arab places where there is less of a rape rate, Swedeen and the UK are worse than Algeria, Morroco, Egypt or Turkey. And by the way Turkey is a very diverse nation it has muslims, a small but persecuted Christian minority. Arabs, Turks, and Kurds. So no it's something else, it's the leadership of those nations being either stupid or evil.
Of course they will be. Algeria, Morocco, Egypt are relatively ethnically homogenous. Turkey isn't, but a) minorites there generally do not mix with the majority the way they do in Western countries, being instead geographically concentrated, and b) biggest minority are Kurds (at 12,7%), which Turks tend to oppress with an attempt at genocide every now and then. Also, rape is an expression of disdain, and Muslims very openly disdain anything non-Muslim.

But unless you are quite blind, it is obvious that more diverse = more rape-happy, at least within any specific cultural unit. United States and Latin America in general are extremely diverse - and in United States, only 1% of Mexican immigrants and 4% of their children identify as "Americans". Northern and Western Europe have many immigrants. Literally only exception to this is India.
 

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