Fictional "Villains" Who Did Nothing Wrong Thread
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Bear Ribs
Well-known member
The villains of Codename: Kids Next Door are a bit debatable, but mostly that depends on where you lie on the bizarre metaphysics of the world. Adults are, after all, trying to do things like make kids eat their vegetables and go to bed on time. The show itself treats these as hideous evils that are done for no other reason that adults enjoy the suffering of children but, y'know, bizarre metaphysics.
Val the Moofia Boss
Well-known member
Colonel Alan Richard, from Trails in the Sky.
This villain was absolutely, hands down 100% right, and is arguably the actual hero of the game.
Richard hails from the small kingdom of Liberl. 10 years ago, in the year 1192, Liberl was invaded by the neighboring Erebonian Empire. Erebonia is a huge expansionist empire and its military is highly experienced. The Empire blew through Liberl's borders with their tanks and steamrolled across Liberl. Liberl only really has like 5 major towns, and pretty much all except 1 were captured by the Erebonians within a few weeks. The Liberlian holdouts were besieged within the last town (the capital city) and a military fortress.
Red: Liberlian territory occupied by Erebonia during the war. Blue: territory still held by Liberlians.
Liberl only survived the war due to a fluke. Within the walls of their military fortress, they built a few bombing airships. They then flew out from the fortress and began dropping bombs on the tanks. They also used the airships to transport strike teams behind enemy lines to cut off supply lines (the first use of airships for military purposes in the setting). Eventually, the Erebonian military was forced to retreat... but not for long: the force that had just invaded Liberl? That was just the first wave. Erebonia was massing an even larger second wave that was going to totally crush Liberl... when the peace treaty came. This war became known as the Hundred Days War.
Newly built Liberlian airships dropping bombs on the Imperial Army that was besieging the capital city of Grancel.
10 years have passed. The Erebonian Empire continued its expansionist spree and annexed several other nations in the meantime. It has also significantly hulked up its army. Liberl's singular advantage, their airships, is gone as the Erebonians now have military airships of their own (and even flying carriers!) and a vastly larger air force. Liberl is also unfortunately sandwiched in between the Erebonian Empire and the Calvard Republic, two rival superpowers which are in an escalating cold war that is slowing turning hot. It is blatantly obvious that a world war is coming and Liberl is going to become a battlefield, as it will be an invasion corridor for either side to invade the other (the Erebonian-Calvard border between Liberl and Crossbell, and Crossbell and Nord is all impassable mountains, so armies have to pass through either Liberl, Crossbell, Nord, or Reimferia).
And yet... no one in Liberl is doing anything to prepare for this. The military has become rife with corruption, as officers are taking bribes from literally anyone. Most of the experienced officers from the Hundred Days War have retired, leaving complete newbs behind. The only actual veteran left has been stationed on border patrol duty (rather actually commanding the military or training the newbs). The Queen Alicia has been doing absolutely nothing about this. Furthermore, she has done nothing about Liberl's strategic situation: she hasn't been fortifying Liberl's borders, or ramping up production of military airships, or forging defensive pacts with other nations against Erebonia. She does literally nothing.
Queen Alicia. Probably the worst monarch in the history of Liberl.
Richard, one of the veterans of the Hundred Days War, can't stand by and do nothing anymore. He decides to take action. He lost a lot of good friends in the war and isn't about to see their sacrifices be for nothing if Liberl is just going to get steamrolled 10 years later. So he decides he's going to perform a military coup and save the country. He has four objectives:
- 1. Have the Liberlian Princess marry one of the Erebonian Princes, thus creating an alliance between Erebonia and Liberl and protecting Liberl from getting invaded by the Erebonians.
- 2. Keep good relations with the Calvardians, leaving the door open so that if relations break down with the Erebonians, Liberl can ally with Calvard and hopefully they will help out.
- 3. Reform the military. Clean out the corrupt officers, train up the newbs (he recruited fearsome mercenary warriors as instructors), build additional forts to slow down enemy invasion, and ramp up of production of weapons. In the event that relations with the Erebonians break down, Liberl will have way better chances.
- 4. Excavate magical artifacts in Liberl and research them (Richard has it on good authority from a knowledgable source that there is a pretty powerful artifact in Liberl that can be used to repel the Erebonians).
It's rather telling that the heroes of the game... have absolutely no argument for opposing Richard. Richard clearly explains why he is doing what he is doing to the protagonists... and yet his words went in one ear and out the other of the protagonists. Estelle literally says "you can't rely on magic!" (this is before the drawback about the artifact was known). Queen Alicia dismisses Richard as "he's just being sexist" when Richard never had a problem with the Queen being a women; his problem was that she was incompetent (which is true). The heroes, by opposing Richard, actively sabotaged their own country just to reset the status quo.
(It's also especially rich that the protagonists say that Richard is wrong for his unlawful coup... when the protagonists are part of an international organization that is BY LAW AND CHARTER not supposed to intervene in the political affairs of other nations...)
And... the game unironically proves Richard right. Liberl is invaded (both by Erebonia and another faction), and it is only due to Richard's actions that Liberl is saved. The invaders casually rip through Liberl's newb army, only repelled when Richard's expertly trained soldiers are released from prison and do their work.
After Trails in the Sky, what does Queen Alicia do to prepare Liberl for the impending World War? Why, absolutely nothing. Wait, no, she does WORSE than nothing: she gives Erebonia new cutting edge engine technology... which, ofcourse, they install in their military airships. When the world war finally rolls around 8 games later, guess who has a technologically superior air force? One that is larger than everyone elses? Who was responsible for that? Who could have prevented that by NOT giving them the awesome engine tech? HMMMM?? (For the record: Liberl, Calvard, and Reimferia formed a collaition against Erebonia... and Erebonia was WINNING the world war anyway). Queen Alicia is Liberl's biggest teamkiller.
I guess I should write another post for the villains of Ao, who also unironically did nothing wrong. The protagonists of that Trails game were even stupider for opposing them than the protagonists of Sky for opposing Richard.
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edgeworthy
Well-known member
Admiral Geoffrey Tolwyn.
Was absolutely right, okay his methods may have been flawed.
Humanity had just survived a 30 year war that proved that the universe was full of existential threats to humanity. And the politicians were busy losing the peace. The canon actually proved him right!
Was absolutely right, okay his methods may have been flawed.
Humanity had just survived a 30 year war that proved that the universe was full of existential threats to humanity. And the politicians were busy losing the peace. The canon actually proved him right!
DarthOne
☦️
....I
What's he from?Admiral Geoffrey Tolwyn.
Was absolutely right, okay his methods may have been flawed.
Humanity had just survived a 30 year war that proved that the universe was full of existential threats to humanity. And the politicians were busy losing the peace. The canon actually proved him right!
Wing Commander.
DarthOne
☦️
Ah, that game series with the lion-aliens that had the really bad movie which pretty much killed the franchise?
Specifically, in Wing Commander IV, Tolwyn is the leader of a conspiracy to "strengthen" the Confederation through a Palpatine-style scheme of instigating a war between the Confederation and the independent Border States, with the ultimate objective of deploying an engineered plague which will wipe out all but the strongest portion of humanity.
He needs to be beaten to death with a clue-by-four while screaming, "Evolution does not work that way, moron!"
He needs to be beaten to death with a clue-by-four while screaming, "Evolution does not work that way, moron!"
Damn, it's a shame this is a game, because I'd love to see it as an anime.
Colonel Alan Richard, from Trails in the Sky.
I would say the UED from Starcraft, since they were defending humanity against the Zerg, which as we know are a horde of space locusts and kicked Mengsk's ass so hard that he needed help from practically everyone and probably would have won if not for the interference of a space god with dark intentions... And if we take SC2 lore into account if they didn't lose they would have frustrated evil space god's dastardly plan. Also they didn't have much beef with the Protoss, and didn't want to get into a fight with them, despite being xenophobic- they were actually baffled at the Protoss helping Mengsk, as I remember they seemed to think the Protoss were above Mengsk.
Also Cal from that dumb Titantic movie, just another Fiance who turns inexplicably evil once some other guy makes a move on his girl...and of course the story is told from the cheater's point of view...
Also Cal from that dumb Titantic movie, just another Fiance who turns inexplicably evil once some other guy makes a move on his girl...and of course the story is told from the cheater's point of view...
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
I would say Lady Eboshi in Princess Mononoke fits the bill. She was genuinely just trying to create a settlement for her people, showed hospitality to strangers, and was fair in her dealings. She was the villain, as I see it, for only two nonsensical reasons.
1: She used gunpowder weapons (against wolves and boars the size of freakin' barns but fantasy gun control).
2: She cut down trees to build her city in a world that ran on Captain Planet morality.
For these sins Lady Eboshi had to be humbled, have one arm ripped out of it's socket, and lose to nature.
1: She used gunpowder weapons (against wolves and boars the size of freakin' barns but fantasy gun control).
2: She cut down trees to build her city in a world that ran on Captain Planet morality.
For these sins Lady Eboshi had to be humbled, have one arm ripped out of it's socket, and lose to nature.
DarthOne
☦️
It might seem like that at first glance, but Miyazaki uses the "humanity vs. nature" theme to thinly veil the other major message: a blatantly pacifist one that, in particular, shuns the "us vs. them" mentality so commonly seen in society, as clearly evidenced numerous times throughout the story. Additionally, it shows that while technology has a tendency to pollute and corrupt the natural world, it also allows people to become strong
Even more than that -- the people she was taking in were prostitutes and lepers, people anyone else would have left to die.
I really never get onboard with Miyazaki's side in any of his movies, really, except Spirited Away. I'm actually really on board with Princess Mononoke's nature side because it came off as hypocritical and evil, and I freakin' love nature. But the nature side in that movie was all about how they could kill humans for anything they felt like, but how dare humans ever stick up for themselves or defend themselves in any way. Fuck that noise. Pacifism is stupid.
Val the Moofia Boss
Well-known member
Seems to be a recurring trend in Japanese media, to my aggravation.
Princess Relena from Gundam Wing: "We practice total pacifism here in the Sanc Kingdom! There shall be no fighting in my name!" (ignoring the fact that literally right outside her castle, she has soldiers dying in her name to protect her kingdom, also ignores that the entire franchise's appeal is based on cool mecha fights). Gundam War in the Pocket ending: "Audience, you should feel bad for coming to watch a movie about people killing each other in a war!" (Grave of the Fireflies did the same thing with its ending too).
Pokemon the First Movie: "Fighting is awful!" (ignoring the fact that the entire movie's appeal is based on cool Pokemon fights).
My Hero Academia: "HOW DARE YOU use your power to protect someone from falling debris in public when you're not a registered pro-hero! You should be convicted and imprisoned!" (so... the right thing to do would have been to just have been a bystander and let that guy's skull get caved in?). "HOW DARE YOU use your power to stop a serial killer from butchering a hero when you don't have a hero license yet!" (so the right thing to do would have been to just let that serial killer kill another hero?). "HOW DARE YOU kill a murderous villain who had the power to nuke a city and just declared that he was going to do so!" (so... the right thing to do would have been to risk trying to take this extremely dangerous individual captive - the odds of which were slim - and risk the lives of hundreds of thousands of people?).
@Val the Moofia Boss MHA really deserves to have Saitama and Genos dropped on them. Saitama, because they cannot do shit to him and he might actually get irked at them managing to be worse than the hero association... Saitama when he gives a fuck can actually be an outstanding human being, and actually be the hero he is supposed to be. Also Genos having a blazing sense of justice probably wouldn't take their bullshit lying down, especially them fucking with people doing the right thing...
Or maybe they need Mumen Rider, since he is actually a hero and less stupid in the pacifism department, "Don't kick a man when he is down, and don't kill people if you don't need to". Also, "Hahahaha, community service goes brrrrrr."
Or maybe they need Mumen Rider, since he is actually a hero and less stupid in the pacifism department, "Don't kick a man when he is down, and don't kill people if you don't need to". Also, "Hahahaha, community service goes brrrrrr."
I disagree with your interpretation -- the point of the movie was that the conflict was both destructive and self destructive to both sides, that there were was good, bad, and neutral on both sides, and that ceasing to kill each other was the only way anyone was going to live.
She's also still alive, still in charge, and she has succeeded in accomplishing every single one of her goals. She's successfully defended her people, paid off her Faustian bargain with Jikobo, and finally succeeded in developing firearms light enough for her women to use. She's paid a *personal* price, but in strategic terms? She's the ultimate winner of the entire movie.
Admiral Geoffrey Tolwyn.
Was absolutely right, okay his methods may have been flawed.
Absolutely no way. Tolwyn at most counts as a villain who was sort of a well-intentioned extremist, not a villain who did nothing wrong. He committed treason, mass murder of innocent civilians, and was conspiring to commit partial xenocide against his own species.
A villain who did nothing wrong isn't one whose actions are arguably justified; it's literally a villain who has not committed any actual moral or legal wrongdoing, and is only "guilty" of opposing the hero protagonist. Tolwyn does not qualify in the slightest.
Except for the part where Tolwyn himself was the biggest existential threat to humanity, with his plan to wipe out most of his own species with bioweapons on the idea that "the strongest would survive". A plan that makes him literally dumber than MCU Thanos.
Megadeath
Well-known member
Dreadwing, from Dragonflyz. The first episode (Which I believe is legally available on YouTube.) has the protagonists invade his hellish domain, to steal natural resources to power the flying utopia that him and his people are not allowed to join. During the smash and grab adventure, one of the "heroes" falls off his dragon and plummets towards lava, only to be saved by this terrible villain.
The hero is then put on trial for his legit crimes, only to be saved by his friends attacking the court physically rather than even making a pretence at lawfully defending him. They then ride off into the sunset, taking the precious resources and the guilty criminal.
In a later episode, Dreadwing has managed to create his own floating city, so he can save his people from the apocalyptic hellscape the surface has become. The heroes do not approve of self improvement though, so just as the "evil" people see beautiful blue sky for possibly the first time in their lives, the heroes shoot down the city and laugh off the mass murder caused by the fighting and presumed crash landing.
The hero is then put on trial for his legit crimes, only to be saved by his friends attacking the court physically rather than even making a pretence at lawfully defending him. They then ride off into the sunset, taking the precious resources and the guilty criminal.
In a later episode, Dreadwing has managed to create his own floating city, so he can save his people from the apocalyptic hellscape the surface has become. The heroes do not approve of self improvement though, so just as the "evil" people see beautiful blue sky for possibly the first time in their lives, the heroes shoot down the city and laugh off the mass murder caused by the fighting and presumed crash landing.
Weren't Dragonflyz the male version of those Sky Dancer flying toy dolls?