Versus Match GDI Zone Trooper/Raider vs Clan Elementals

[Spartan303]

It started with a Batchall...

"Inner Sphere Barbarians. What forces dare defend this world from the steel talons of the Jade Falcons?"

"You people looking for an ass kicking? You've come to the right planet. These Troopers are ready for action!"


The Scenario: A Clan Force has arrived over Tiberium Wars Earth. When scouting the Planet they note a lone squad of 5 Zone Troopers or Zone Raiders. The Elementals of an equal size (A single Point) are pitted against them in a test of Battle. Who will come out on top?

The Combatants:


GDI Zone Troopers/Raiders. (TibWar 3, 4 or Rivals)

Clan Elementals.

Victory Conditions: The Complete defeat of the other squad.

Location: Gutted Remains of a GDI City in the Yellow Zone. Tiberium is not in play here. Just the gutted remains of the city.

Motivations: Both sides are in character. GDI is defending

Equipment: Standard equipment for both sides but fully upgraded to their max ats of their respective time periods.

Preparation: Both sides went in preparing to face their known enemy. Not each other.

Knowledge: Neither sides has any intimate knowledge of the other side.

Time Period: Clan invasion time period for the Clans. The latest iteration for the GDI Zone Troopers/Raiders.

Continuity/Canon: Canon lore for both sides. For Btech, Clan Elementals as of the Clan invasions of the Inner Sphere. For GDI. Zone Troopers/Raiders

 

[PsihoKekec]

How effective would the weapons of both sides be against the armor of the opponents?

 

[Spartan303]

How effective would the weapons of both sides be against the armor of the opponents?

Moderately effectively. GDI Zone armor could withstand likely several hits. Same for the Elementals.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Without being an expert on either, I'll just try and get the discussion started.

The Zone Troopers main equipment is a badass railgun which is basically a scaled down version of the massive cannons they have on their main battle tanks and can do heavy damage to armored vehicles and structures and the like with said railguns. They also got great jump packs and the like as well, for pretty impressive mobility, so much so they can be shot down by anti-air weapons which is some serious airtime. They're also, assumingly, highly trained if not elite power armor clad infantry who operate in squads of four (or five in this case).

The Clan Elementals meanwhile don't have some massive badass Railgun to crump NOD Stealth Tanks with, but they do got a primary weapon which is usually some sort of small laser, and an anti-personnel weapon like a machine gun or flamer and an optional SRM-2 rocket pack. And are clad in 250 kilograms of advanced armor. And have jump jets. And are strong enough to tear armor off of mechs if given the chance. They can withstand "some" mech scale weapons with machine guns bouncing off of them but their visor can be penetrated by a laser rifle. Plus they're bred and trained for war, Elemental style warfare and thus are also pretty elite one could imagine.

Clan Elementals can have stealth tech but Zone Troopers have optional Battle Scanners that can overcome that.GDI Zone Troopers aren't glass cannons, but their railguns if they hit I feel could put a serious hurt on Clan Elementals. Maybe a couple hits to slay or disable a Clan Elemental. Or even one hit if they are lucky enough. At long range, even with the laser cannons and SRM-2's I feel the Zone Troopers would have a better chance. But in urban warfare, I think Clan Elementals will pull the victory. They can close distance, and blast away with lasers and machine guns which can fire more rapidly then a railgun and if they get in real close, they can use their mech armor ripping claws to do some unwilling battle surgery on the Zone Troopers. The GDI Troopers could jump away and disengage but I think the Clan Elementals could keep it close even if they aren't as mobile. Plus they still have those rocket packs and SRM's could get into plinking mode with flying Zone Troopers. Training wise... I might give it to the Clan Elementals as they are both a warrior culture, but a professional military one PLUS they are bred for one kind of combat, that of being Elementals on the battlefield. GDI Zone Troopers are probably really good but I'd give a nudge or nod in the favor of the Clan Elementals in the skills department as well.

So overall I'll give the win to the Clan Elementals in a small, but clear majority of engagements since the GDI presumably know the terrain better and are on the defense and could get lucky setting up ambushes or initial favorable encounters. But I think the Clan Elementals could still disengage or close distance fast enough even if caught offguard and still recover even if setback initially. And as before, in an "even" fight which I think would be more of them, the Clan would have a greater advantage.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

I'll give odds to the Elementals as well. Flight ability is of limited use if you're fighting within buildings, which will be your greatest source of cover. Really only used to reposition and fall back.

Weapon-wise, the Clanners have it. MG's and Flamers can cause havoc for the Zone Troopers by lighting their cover on fire and just kicking up dust and distracting in the case of the MGs. The Missile Packs give some very heavy weight to the Elementals' fire though it is ammo restricted.

I think the biggest difference will be the armor. I have a feeling that the Clan Elemental armor will be much heavier than the Zone Troopers' armor. (Does anyone have any idea what kind of fire the Troopers can survive, and what will 1-shot them? Can a Zone Trooper survive being set on fire?)

 

[Spartan303]

I'll give odds to the Elementals as well. Flight ability is of limited use if you're fighting within buildings, which will be your greatest source of cover. Really only used to reposition and fall back.

Weapon-wise, the Clanners have it. MG's and Flamers can cause havoc for the Zone Troopers by lighting their cover on fire and just kicking up dust and distracting in the case of the MGs. The Missile Packs give some very heavy weight to the Elementals' fire though it is ammo restricted.

I think the biggest difference will be the armor. I have a feeling that the Clan Elemental armor will be much heavier than the Zone Troopers' armor. (Does anyone have any idea what kind of fire the Troopers can survive, and what will 1-shot them? Can a Zone Trooper survive being set on fire?)

On SB someone mentioned that Zone Troopers of TW4 were counted more or less as walking tanks and had equivalent protection. So pretty impressive really.

 

[Battlegrinder]

I think the GDI trooper have a fairly solid edge in both cases, zone raiders moreso.

A zone trooper railgun is supposed to be able to punch clean through bunkers and tank. A clan small laser is not, unless you're firing on the rear armor of a fairly light design it will take several hits to breach the armor, and the small laser is the best weapon the elementals will have vs zone troopers at this time period. Additionally, zone trooper armor is most likely designed to resist laser fire given Nod's preference for them, while elemental suits will not be designed to withstand railguns.

The elemental's missiles will be an issue, but thry have a very, very limited supply of them, only 2 salvos each, and the missiles are actually weaker then the lasers the suits carry. By contrast, I expect the elementals machine guns to be nearly useless against troopers. Remember, the anti-personnel mount is for conventional infantry weapons to be used on soft targets, the heavier machine guns that can threaten mechsare a totally different weapon system.

Elementals will be more individually skilled and in close quarters far more dangerous, but the greater durability of zone troopers and more powerful weapons gives them the edge IMO.


The same applies to raiders vs elementals, but even more so. Raider armor is functionality the same, but is armed with AA missiles and sonic grenades. I don't think the missiles will be strong enough to kill an elementals mid flight, but they'll certainly screw up a jump and leaving the elemental a sitting duck for grenades. And Zocom sonic grenades are mean, they're designed to shatter targets with sonic vibrations, including humans. Nod has armor that can help mitigate against that (translation: thry won't immediately die of having all thier internal organs rupture), but Nod knows about GDI's love of sonic weapons, the clans do not.

(Does anyone have any idea what kind of fire the Troopers can survive, and what will 1-shot them? Can a Zone Trooper survive being set on fire?)

Incendiary weapons are extremely effective against both zone armor and elementals.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

So we're probably looking at equivelant armors then. BattleTech armor is supposed to be able to repel RL modern depleted uranium sabot rounds. It's ablative for that reason. There really isn't a penetrative quality in Battletech's normal rules. By the fluff, even the Elemental's small laser would overpenetrate an Abrams, and each SRM missile would constitute an kill as well.

So I'm betting that even the rail weapon the Zone Troopers are using would not penetrate the Elemental's armor. Knock it on it's ass, definitely. And sure would penetrate the visor slit if hit.

So we're likely going to need multiple hits to each side's suits for a kill. So I give the edge to the elementals b/c they simply have more weapons systems capable of doing higher scale damage (laser and missiles).

 

[Battlegrinder]

By the fluff, even the Elemental's small laser would overpenetrate an Abrams, and each SRM missile would constitute an kill as well.

I don't think that's true. We have data on primitive armor and weapons, the sort of stuff that predated SL era technology and is fluffed as the ultimate evolution of contemporary vehicle armor. It's inefficient, primitive armor only get you about 11 points of armor per ton vs 16 for standard armor, but primitive armor is still BAR 10 and is no less protective point for point. You just have a lot fewer points to work with.

Where are you getting the idea that battletech SRMs can one shot modern MBTS?

So I'm betting that even the rail weapon the Zone Troopers are using would not penetrate the Elemental's armor. Knock it on it's ass, definitely. And sure would penetrate the visor slit if hit.

Anti-personnel gauss rifles fire armor piercing fleccettes, and they're horrifically effective at shredding battle armor for precisely that reason. If they can pen battle armor, then GDI railguns that are even more powerful should be able to do the same.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Anti-personnel gauss rifles fire armor piercing fleccettes, and they're horrifically effective at shredding battle armor for precisely that reason. If they can pen battle armor, then GDI railguns that are even more powerful should be able to do the same.

Kinda my point. There are Flechette Railguns in BattleTech, AP Gauss Rifles, and they cannot penetrate battlearmor.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Kinda my point. There are Flechette Railguns in BattleTech, AP Gauss Rifles, and they cannot penetrate battlearmor.

Um....no? They are explictly and implicitly described as being able to penetrate battle armor.

Though first carried by Falcon Elementals in a bid to give themselves a decisive edge against the host of new Spheroid battlesuits they were encountering, the anti-personnel (AP) Gauss soon found its way to ’Mech and vehicle usage. Reliable reports from the Homeworlds suggest that the weapon has since been duplicated across Clan-held space, with the Blood Spirits recently deploying this weapon on some of their newer ProtoMech designs.
Essentially a Gauss-based variation of a needler weapon, the AP Gauss fires a deadly hail of metal flechettes at supersonic speeds. Thanks in part to their added acceleration, these flechettes can scour their way through battlefield armor, unlike normal needler shot, which makes this weapon particularly deadly to battle-armored troops and conventional infantry alike.

That's plain as day. Becouse of thier increased velocity, AP gauss rifle shots can make it through battle armor, unlike conventional needler rounds, which are noted for having poor armor penetration, and they are also explictly said to give a decisive advantage against battle armored enemies.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

@Battlegrinder
I'm simply working off of rules. In BattleTech, the AP Gauss Rifle does 3 damage ('Mech scale). The Elemental Suit has 10 points of 'Mech scale armor.

Your second quote address the Needlers inability to even penetrate ANY level of hardened armor. The AP Gauss rifle goes right through Infantry Armor. Elemental Armor is different. It's like 'Mech Armor. The only way through it is to ablate ALL of it.

 

[Battlegrinder]

@Battlegrinder
I'm simply working off of rules. In BattleTech, the AP Gauss Rifle does 3 damage ('Mech scale). The Elemental Suit has 10 points of 'Mech scale armor.

Your second quote address the Needlers inability to even penetrate ANY level of hardened armor. The AP Gauss rifle goes right through Infantry Armor. Elemental Armor is different. It's like 'Mech Armor. The only way through it is to ablate ALL of it.

If you want to go by stats, then AP gauss rifles do extra damage to infantry, including battle armor, once again pointing to their ability to penetrate that same armor.

That said, going purely by game stats, particularly battletech's extremely dubious interpretation of armor, will not get you accurate answers. Battletech stats and rules are designed around making balanced wargame, not an accurate simulation (something people recognize when it comes to money, hence the term "FASAnomics", but keep ignoring when it comes to other aspects). For example, my point about primitive armor came from the fluff first, with stats as a secondary element.

You argument here is basically that elemental armor is strong enough to stand up gauss rifle fire and cannot be cleanly penetrated, and that you instead must ablative through it, which further implies the only way to kill the suit is to hit it 3 or 4 times in the exact same spot in order to slowly dig through the armor, because scoring a hit on the leg isn't going to do anything weaken the chest armor.

I reject that argument on the grounds that is patently ridiculous.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

If you want to go by stats, then AP gauss rifles do extra damage to infantry, including battle armor, once again pointing to their ability to penetrate that same armor.

Actually, Battle Armor does NOT count as infantry in the game. Yes, Anti-Infantry weapons get extra damage, however, BA are not subject to this extra damage. The plain Jane PBIs do however.

That said, going purely by game stats, particularly battletech's extremely dubious interpretation of armor, will not get you accurate answers

Only reason I'm trying to use game stats as all, it because we really don't have ANY point of comparison in power levels across universes besides the AP Gauss vs the Zone Troopers' Gauss. Thus I was looking at the effects of BT 'in universe' BA portable Gauss weapons vs BA Armor. That's what I'm basing it on. Now, if we turn that AP weapon into a single Sledge hammer...you're probably looking at something with a significant increase in damage vs Amor. So maybe the Zone Troopers only need two shots? One to crack the matrix on the armor and the other to penetrate? I just don't agree that the weapon auto penetrates something that actually prevents heavy 'Mech weaponry from cracking it like a PPC or AC10.

You argument here is basically that elemental armor is strong enough to stand up gauss rifle fire and cannot be cleanly penetrated, and that you instead must ablative through it, which further implies the only way to kill the suit is to hit it 3 or 4 times in the exact same spot in order to slowly dig through the armor, because scoring a hit on the leg isn't going to do anything weaken the chest armor.

I get what you're saying, and I'm trying very hard not to bother with the Fyzics of BattleTech or the Zone Troopers. Merely looking for parallels that will allow some idea of comparative scale.

 

[Jormungandr]

Zone Trooper armours were designed with two principles in mind: Protection from tiberium-contaminated environments (aka a Von Neuman green crystal) and against the known weaponry of the Brotherhood of Nod.

The Brotherhood uses augmented (meaning tiberium-enhanced) flame weaponry to a ridiculous extent, and laser weaponry capable of one-shotting light vehicles and main battle tanks have been in existence since the First Tiberium War.

Frankly put, unless there's something I don't know about Clan flame weaponry and laser technology, the Brotherhood, GDI's prime enemy, has been fielding weaponry far superior for coming up to fifty years plus by the time Tiberium Wars (the Third Tiberium War) rolled around.

The backstory for the last generation Nod Flame Tank even had Nod looking at their flame tanks (the upgraded Tiberium Wars ones) and retiring the lot because GDI's latest zone armours were impervious to the flames -- it wasn't until Separatists did some batshit insane modifications to their own flame tanks (that a red-faced Brotherhood shamelessly copied) that allowed them to be viable against GDI zone armours once again.

Zone armour also stood up quite well to the plasma weaponry of the Scrin -- I'm talking about disks of energized, superheated plasma not out of place on the surface of the Sun or from a lightning strike, here.

Zone armour is no joke, no matter its iteration.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Only reason I'm trying to use game stats as all, it because we really don't have ANY point of comparison in power levels across universes besides the AP Gauss vs the Zone Troopers' Gauss. Thus I was looking at the effects of BT 'in universe' BA portable Gauss weapons vs BA Armor. That's what I'm basing it on. Now, if we turn that AP weapon into a single Sledge hammer...you're probably looking at something with a significant increase in damage vs Amor. So maybe the Zone Troopers only need two shots? One to crack the matrix on the armor and the other to penetrate? I just don't agree that the weapon auto penetrates something that actually prevents heavy 'Mech weaponry from cracking it like a PPC or AC10.

That comparison seems to unfairly favor BT, though. In universe for zone troopers, their weapons routinely pierce armor that is far heavier then thier own, including the plating of battle tanks or walkers. Why should we favor battletech's portrayal of it's armor over C&C's portrayal if it's weapons?

 

[Bear Ribs]

That comparison seems to unfairly favor BT, though. In universe for zone troopers, their weapons routinely pierce armor that is far heavier then thier own, including the plating of battle tanks or walkers. Why should we favor battletech's portrayal of it's armor over C&C's portrayal if it's weapons?

But how good is the plating on the battle tanks and walkers? Unless we can establish how much force is needed to do that, it's not useful. C&C armor could make BT armor look like Tofu, or the reverse, I'm not sure.

There're rules for units struck by lightning bolts in Tactical Operations, page 59, with lightning bolts doing 5-10 damage (15 for freak hits where the lightning bolt's cross-section is larger than a football field). Are there any cases where Zone Troopers were hit by lightning that might be used as a comparison?

 

[Jormungandr]

But how good is the plating on the battle tanks and walkers? Unless we can establish how much force is needed to do that, it's not useful. C&C armor could make BT armor look like Tofu, or the reverse, I'm not sure.

There're rules for units struck by lightning bolts in Tactical Operations, page 59, with lightning bolts doing 5-10 damage (15 for freak hits where the lightning bolt's cross-section is larger than a football field). Are there any cases where Zone Troopers were hit by lightning that might be used as a comparison?

Scrin plasma weaponry. They literally are bolts of supercharged plasma, like you'd find on the surface of the Sun or from a lightning strike. Zone armour can repeatedly take multiple shots from infantry to vehicle-grade variants of the weapon e.g. from Disintegrators, Shock Troopers, Seekers, et cetera).

It's only when the Scrin's heaviest come out to play e.g. on their Devastators that they carve through zone armour, but then again the Devastators are essentially aerial mobile artillery platforms, so that would be like shooting a guy in modern military field kit with a howitzer at close range.

They can also withstand strikes from Ion Storms (which they were partially designed in mind for due to the enviroment they're supposed to be operating in e.g. Yellow and Red Zones), both natural and artificial, which can strike down advanced aircraft (like the original Kodiak Command Vehicle, as seen in Firestorm's introduction FMV) in one strike.

Nod also has tiberium-related charged and supercharged particle beam weaponry, which the Black Hand and Marked of Kane use, respectively.

C&C metallurgy and technology is, frankly, ridiculously bullshit; because of tiberium and the Tacitus' influences in accelerating development, GDI and Nod went from conventional ballistic weaponry to stuff we, in the real world, would likely see in the next century in less than... what, five? ten years? They had viable infantry-grade laser weaponry and railguns at the turn of the 21st century. Heck, GDI had orbital and ground-based ion-based weaponry.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Scrin plasma weaponry. They literally are bolts of supercharged plasma, like you'd find on the surface of the Sun or from a lightning strike. Zone armour can repeatedly take multiple shots from infantry to vehicle-grade variants of the weapon e.g. from Disintegrators, Shock Troopers, Seekers, et cetera).

It's only when the Scrin's heaviest come out to play e.g. on their Devastators that they carve through zone armour, but then again the Devastators are essentially aerial mobile artillery platforms, so that would be like shooting a guy in modern military field kit with a howitzer at close range.

They can also withstand strikes from Ion Storms (which they were partially designed in mind for due to the enviroment they're supposed to be operating in e.g. Yellow and Red Zones), both natural and artificial, which can strike down advanced aircraft (like the original Kodiak Command Vehicle, as seen in Firestorm's introduction FMV) in one strike.

Nod also has tiberium-related charged and supercharged particle beam weaponry, which the Black Hand and Marked of Kane use, respectively.

C&C metallurgy and technology is, frankly, ridiculously bullshit; because of tiberium and the Tacitus' influences in accelerating development, GDI and Nod went from conventional ballistic weaponry to stuff we, in the real world, would likely see in the next century in less than... what, five? ten years? They had viable infantry-grade laser weaponry and railguns at the turn of the 21st century. Heck, GDI had orbital and ground-based ion-based weaponry.

Okay, but that's not what I asked, is it?

As far as that weaponry, going off that specific description it's pretty old hat by BT standards.

Flamers are a simple weapon with a long history, designed as much for psychological warfare as for devastation. Most effective as anti-infantry
weapons, today’s heavy-weapon models of the flamer come in two basic types: fusion-powered plasma flamers- TechManual pg 218

The energy-based equivalent of the Gauss rifle, the particle projector cannon (PPC for short) is one of the most powerful non-ballistic
weapons ever devised for the modern battlefield. Consisting of a magnetic accelerator, firing high-energy proton or ion bolts, PPCs can
flay armor through kinetic and thermal damage. ... these particle cannons have excellent reach for the tactical battlefield and can vaporize about two tons of standard militarygrade armor in just three solid hits. - TechManual pg 233

At the time of this document, plasma weaponry—which uses a lasing process to flash cartridges of plastic foam into white-hot projectiles—was
an infantry support weapon fielded by the Capellan Confederation for battle armor use only.- TechManual pg 234

So just saying "It's hot plasma" doesn't mean much. Do we have any comparisons with something that would be common between universes, like bolts of lightning? Or instances of Scrin weaponry vaporizing two tons of anything in a known number of hits? 'Cause I'm really not up on my C&C lore and genuinely don't know, but I'd like to see actual feats rather than just saying they have plasma.

 

[Battlegrinder]

There're rules for units struck by lightning bolts in Tactical Operations, page 59, with lightning bolts doing 5-10 damage (15 for freak hits where the lightning bolt's cross-section is larger than a football field). Are there any cases where Zone Troopers were hit by lightning that might be used as a comparison?

Ion Storms should be similar, it's just tiberium generated lighting. I don't recall if we see zone trooper hit by it, though. The scrin have a structure that generates an ion storm as a weapon, but I'm not sure if that would be a fair comparison because it's an artificially generated and weaponized lighting storm.

The scrin version will wipe out a whole squad because it's a blast effect.