Had Russia (purely hypothetically) succeeded in quickly conquering Ukraine, just how easy would a subsequent Russian invasion of Finland have been?

WolfBear

Well-known member
Had Russia (purely hypothetically) succeeded in quickly conquering Ukraine, just how easy would a subsequent Russian invasion of Finland have been? Would it have been as difficult as the Winter War was? Even more difficult? I'm thinking of quickly conquering Ukraine and then redirecting as much of Russia's military forces as possible towards Finland in order to forcibly conquer it in order to prevent it from joining NATO.

What do you think, @Husky_Khan?
 

UberIguana

Well-known member
The main question is how Russia succeeded in invading Ukraine. Did Ukraine just roll over like Putin expected? Was the Russian military ROB'd into not being shit? Was there a fantastically unlikely set of early breaks that let them pull it off?

Russia trying to invade Finland with its RL pre-war military is going to look very different to trying invade with one that's actually been properly maintained.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
The main question is how Russia succeeded in invading Ukraine. Did Ukraine just roll over like Putin expected? Was the Russian military ROB'd into not being shit? Were there just a fantastically unlikely set of early breaks that let them pull it off?

Russia trying to invade Finland with its RL pre-war military is going to look very different to trying invade with one that's actually been properly maintained.

How about Ukraine simply experiencing a loss of morale and command and control similar to what the Afghan military experienced when they faced off against the Taliban after the US withdrawal from Afghanistan? In other words, Anatoly Karlin's predictions actually being correct?


The duration of the conflict will depend on the extent to which Ukrainian soldiers are prepared to fight. In conventional models, it will take several weeks, with a few thousand Russian casualties and several 10,000’s of Ukrainian casualties. However, given those very disparities - inevitable given Russia’s vast preponderance in materiel, mobility, and technology - I suspect there’s a very good chance that the collapse might happen much quicker. By moving its Embassy to Lvov, the US has already implicitly acknowledged that Russia will win, so the correct game theory move for Ukrainian soldiers is to follow their own oligarchs into defection and accept the 2-3x salary increase from joining the Russian Army. In this scenario, which is both my hope and intuition, Russian and Ukrainian military casualties will be limited to the hundreds and thousands, respectively.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Had Russia (purely hypothetically) succeeded in quickly conquering Ukraine, just how easy would a subsequent Russian invasion of Finland have been? Would it have been as difficult as the Winter War was? Even more difficult? I'm thinking of quickly conquering Ukraine and then redirecting as much of Russia's military forces as possible towards Finland in order to forcibly conquer it in order to prevent it from joining NATO.

What do you think, @Husky_Khan?
All depends on how much are EU defense guarantees worth, as Finland is in the EU even if not in NATO. Starting with slow arms supplies plus sanctions and thought and prayers at pessimistic level, and ending with French and Germany armored divisions storming through Baltics in the direction of St.Petersburg while Poles occupy Kaliningrad and Baltic Fleet proceeds to get slaughtered by EU submarines and aircraft as optimistic.
In first scenario, probably not that different from Ukraine.
In second scenario, it's almost as bad as a NATO intervention.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Had Russia (purely hypothetically) succeeded in quickly conquering Ukraine, just how easy would a subsequent Russian invasion of Finland have been? Would it have been as difficult as the Winter War was? Even more difficult? I'm thinking of quickly conquering Ukraine and then redirecting as much of Russia's military forces as possible towards Finland in order to forcibly conquer it in order to prevent it from joining NATO.

What do you think, @Husky_Khan?

If Ukraine surrender as Putin belived,then he would attack Baltic states/Poland/both,not Finland.
But,if Moscov invaded Finland,they would need few months to win,even if finns do not get any help.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
If Ukraine surrender as Putin belived,then he would attack Baltic states/Poland/both,not Finland.
But,if Moscov invaded Finland,they would need few months to win,even if finns do not get any help.

It's Finland's human capital that can still be conquered without a direct war with NATO, though.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
There's not many routes to invade Southern Finland that aren't blocked by lakes, wetlands and lots of forests. And as per OTL the Russians sent their Arctic Troops, Naval Infantry and most famously their Airborne/VDV forces into Ukraine, all of which suffered considerable losses in the conflict. It might be less here but there'd still be a drain on Russian forces both from that Special Military Operation and the ongoing occupation of Ukraine. Plus the depletion of their guided missiles. Not as much as OTL but still hundreds if not thousands of missiles expended.

And there's like only a handful of road border crossings in the entire length of the Finnish-Russian border in the central and northern part of the border. And almost all of that border is heavily forested as well.

Plus Finland already has lots of trained reservists in addition to the active military and supposedly room to train up 900,000 troops total in six to nine months time. With NATO (and Scandinavian) support directly that could be performed in Norway and Sweden and other safe areas closeby.

When Russia attacks, they'll have to deal with a lot of anti-tank and anti-armor weapons. According to Wikipedia its 3000 NLAW's, almost 40,000 112mm Apilas, 70,000 M72 LAWS, 500+ TOW ATGM's and 200 SPIKE ATGM's. Yikes! The Russians lost lots of logistical vehicles and armored units in their opening moves tramping through the forest areas of Northern Ukraine and in the suburbs of Kyiv where reportedly Ukrainian forces armed with anti-armor weapons incurred impressive amounts of casualties upon the Russians in men and material.

And unlike Ukraine with those big ol fields in the South and East of the country, a lot of Finland is again wetlands and forest so it'd be bad everywhere and help negate Russia's potential advantages in artillery as well as in things like air support or drone support/spotting due to all of the foliage and concealment etc.

Russia still would have a big advantage in guided missiles (until they run out) and lots of artillery. Finland does have 29 M270 MLRS's though and Russia has been incapable of striking Ukrainian HIMARS so far, I can only imagine how much more of a headache supplying Russian advances with their depots would be when they invade Finland upon predictable axis and with no prior experience of enduring HIMARS strikes before. Plus Finnish MRLS' have access to extended range GMLRS and would far more likely get ATACMS as well.

That leads into the other thing. Finland would be easier to supply then Ukraine. They already use M270's so giving Finland more HIMARS/M270's would be more streamlined since they're already familiar with the systems and have the supply chains setup. It won't have to take months to do anything.

Same with NASAMs air defenses. Finland only has a half dozen of them. Norway and NATO could get them those in a matter of weeks, not months unlike with Ukraine where there's months needed for training. Same with 155mm howitzers and self propelled guns, radars, Harpoon and RBS variant antiship missiles, and up to and including things like HARM missiles, F-18 jets (and F-16/F-35 jets), Leopard tanks, and all sorts of IFV's, APC's and MRAPs.

Plus think of what Sweden and Norway and Denmark and Poland gave to Ukraine rather readily a month or more after the conflict. That could all go to Ukraine instead and likely be more substantial as well. Starting in late March (so assumingly after Ukraine fell) Sweden gave Ukraine 10,000+ AT-4 missiles and RBS-17/Hellfire Missiles as well as loads of other military equipment. Norway sold the US 8 NASAMS systems to be sent to Ukraine, along with 3 M270's to UK so they could send three to Ukraine, and 22 M109 155mm SPG's, 5000 M72's, and loads of drones etc. Even Denmark sent 2700 M72's, 300 Stinger MANPADs, and a few dozen M113's.

Plus the volunteers that might want to take part in the Special Military Operation.

It'd be extremely rough for Finland since I think Russia would actually be more ruthless than they have been against their "little brother' Slavs in Ukraine. They'd probably be striking infrastructure and population centers far more ruthlessly IMHO to try and demoralize the Finns and woe be to any towns or villages or cities captured by Russian forces as well, especially after realizing it won't be a cakewalk.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
It would be much harder then Ukraine.


One as has been mentioned the finns have a much more defensible terrain, two russia would most likely have to hold town ukraines dead enders and gurella fighters which would most likely still be fighting. Three Finland has been preparing for this shit for generations and has more of a history as a defined independent nation. Four Finland has a whole bunch of neighbors who actually you know like them.

Five Russia has a whole bunch of neighbors who fucking hate them.

Six every one in nato space will see themselves as being next after Ukraine was invaded, all of the shit will be provided, the checks will be signed.

7 Finlands checked into the international system and Russia's brutality will be on full display, unlike ukraine where it could be somewhat hidden.

8, Finland is actually an industrialized economy with money, so they can make shit and by a whole lot more toys.

9- Russia still wont have realized how fucked up their milatary really is.

Over all I think it would be a fucking blood bath but the russians would attempt a genocide and would rape a whole lot of women, and commit a lot of war crimes but I honestly see them losing this one.
 

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