I get to conquer the Federation (SW and ST Crossover/SI)

Jaenera Targaryen

Well-known member
The death of what tainted embers of unity formed will be regarded as one of the greatest events in history by all earth cultures

Mind you, the ISB will be spending decades at least rooting out Feddie fanatics and maybe even Neo-Feddie pseudo-cults who believe in the creed of "utopia at any cost". Oh well, if nothing else, it will help keep them competent by constantly being on their toes.

To a glorious new tomorrow, SIEG ZEON! Wait, no...wrong timeline...um...Gott mit uns...damn it, still wrong timeline...oh, here we go, long live the Empire!
 

Airedale260

Well-known member
On the one hand, I find it really weird that Americans are cheering “Long Live the Empire” or whatever…on the other…can’t say I’m really surprised. The re-enactment of the Boston Tea Party was a nice touch, though, likewise with the Liberty Bells. And no, I don’t think Truman had any clue what was going to happen…if he had known it’s likely he’d have shut it down immediately without hesitation.

It’ll be interesting seeing what kind of government or organization is established on Earth to replace United Earth in the wake of all this…the world government bit is something people are going to be balking at.

Incidentally, it’s kind of ironic that Min Zife is the president in charge…canonically he wasn’t a particularly good military leader and was an even shittier politician…only now he’s basically the only remaining politician of note in the Federation. Ross is probably privately fuming. Well, hopefully he won’t be fuming much longer…
 

Jaenera Targaryen

Well-known member
On the one hand, I find it really weird that Americans are cheering “Long Live the Empire” or whatever…on the other…can’t say I’m really surprised.

Well, the Empire at this point is still technically a constitutional monarchy with a democratically-elected Senate. United Earth's also already surrendered, which has caused a massive psychological effect on the public, in particular, an aversion to resuming hostilities and encouraging a 'wait and see' attitude. It also helps that while Starfleet - the supposed defenders of the Earth - tried to pull a Nero Decree (without consulting with the local planetary governments, mind), the Empire was quick to provide food and medical aid. They've also allowed what few security forces - in the case of the UNAS, the National Guard, unfortunately the US Army, US Navy, US Air Force, US Marine Corps, and US Space Force have all been defunct since at least the 23rd Century - to retain their weapons, instead assigning liaison officers and keeping Stormtroopers only at strategic locations.

Basically at this point, most Americans, while fearful after San Francisco and Luna got hit, are at worst ambivalent towards the Empire. And with all the Federation's skeletons spilling out of the closets, there's also this sense of being...betrayed, tricked, bamboozled, etc. that suddenly has the Empire looking preferable by comparison. At least the Empire doesn't pretend to be anything than what it appears as, i.e. an expansionist, militaristic power. And as previously-mentioned, the Treaty of Orion proves the Empire is actually much more generous when it comes to terms for submission compared to all the requirements the Federation asks prospective members to meet.

The re-enactment of the Boston Tea Party was a nice touch, though, likewise with the Liberty Bells.

I thought so.

And no, I don’t think Truman had any clue what was going to happen…if he had known it’s likely he’d have shut it down immediately without hesitation.

I was originally going to reference the Illuminati or the Templars, but suddenly the Majestic Twelve seemed a more fitting shadow conspiracy to serve as the roots of Section 31.

It’ll be interesting seeing what kind of government or organization is established on Earth to replace United Earth in the wake of all this…the world government bit is something people are going to be balking at.

We'll see.

Incidentally, it’s kind of ironic that Min Zife is the president in charge…canonically he wasn’t a particularly good military leader and was an even shittier politician…only now he’s basically the only remaining politician of note in the Federation. Ross is probably privately fuming. Well, hopefully he won’t be fuming much longer…

Min Zife was the canon president as of 2376, at least outside of STO. Since I'm not using the latter, Zife is the President.

He's the puppet that didn't know he was a puppet and by making the speech he is trying to move the ship of state in a way Ross who probably is an associate of Section 31 dislikes. There maybe a tragic assassination that the GE will be blamed for.

As if anyone will care at this point. At worst it'd annoy Admiral Targaryen, who'd probably have the ISB scour the assassination's aftermath.
 

Airedale260

Well-known member
Min Zife was the canon president as of 2376, at least outside of STO. Since I'm not using the latter, Zife is the President.

No, I know. But what’s hilarious about it is, canonically (I believe) Ross and Section 31 assassinated him over some dipshittery or other…and now they can’t because it would basically cause the Federation to self-destruct if they did. Or at least give the Empire a much easier time.
 

novussa

Active member
i wonder how bashir is dealing with this. On one hand section 31 is done so he is probaly dancing with joy on that on the other hand he is downright that beacuse of the section 31 and admirals like ross have all but discredtied starfleet and the federation. he is porably planning a vacation to cardassia to visit his old friend garak.
 
Chapter 20

Jaenera Targaryen

Well-known member
Guinan’s bar on Mars was busy with customers. That in itself wasn’t unusual, what was unusual was the makeup of the crowd these days. Just a month ago, most of her customers would be Starfleet officers, men and women of various species in red, yellow, or blue uniforms. Nowadays, Imperial officers made up most of her clientele, Humans every last one of them, the regular military in olive-grey uniforms, Imperial Stormtroopers in black uniforms, and the ISB in white uniforms. Appearances aside, they also had different tastes compared to her past clientele, Guinan’s Orion contracts warning her that the Coruscanti Humans preferred real alcohol over synthehol.

Not that she could have served them anything else, anyway. Starfleet had stripped the replicator feedstocks even before the Battle of Mars, and blown the refineries afterwards. If not for Imperial logistics willing to pick up the slack, Guinan couldn’t have served them much or for long. As it was, they’d supplied her with various liquors, in exchange for reduced prices for Imperial officers and enlisted frequenting her bar.

A fair exchange, all things considered, and Guinan wasn’t one to judge anyway. That wasn’t her role. It never had been. Her role was to listen, to watch and testify to the unfolding of Humanity’s history, whether its Terran or Coruscanti branches. Granted, she’d only known the latter existed for barely a month, but it changed nothing.

She would listen, she would watch, and she would bear testimony.

No more and no less.

It simply wasn’t her place to shape their history for them.

“Here’s five beers for table fifteen.” Guinan said, gesturing for one of the waiters, who took the tray and carried it to where five officers – all pilots, from the sound of things – were trading stories between each other over beer and cards.

“…so I got on top of the bastard, and unloaded a pair of torpedoes on his ass.” One pilot was boasting with exaggerated hand gestures. “Bam! Just like that! Nine stars on my cockpit window, and ace status on my first battle to boot.”

“Nine stars on your first combat mission, huh?” another pilot said. “Not bad, not bad at all, even by Clone Wars standards. And say what you will about their capitals, the Feddies have sturdy attack craft, well-shielded and well-armed, if a bit slow. Good pilots too…taking nine of them down is worth more drinks than taking down nine clankers.”

“I’ll drink to that.”

“Likewise!”

A round of cheers went up from the table as the pilots took their beer mugs and toasted each other before downing their drinks. Guinan made a small smile at such a nostalgic sight, having witnessed such things centuries ago, long before the rise of the Federation, when Earth was still divided into small warring countries.

Then she blinked, and turned to the upper level, where a bald man was staring out over the Martian landscape from a private booth. He was in civilian clothing, unsurprising considering how…unwise, it was, these days to go around in a Starfleet uniform, and not because the Empire was arresting its members, those of them left stranded in the system after the Battle of Mars.

No, it was the civilians who Starfleet was wary of. They felt…betrayed, and abandoned, after Starfleet had retreated from the Sol System after the Battle of Mars, and even tried to destroy everything of value while leaving. And after the Empire had exposed all of the Federation’s – United Earth’s – secrets for the galaxy to see, the civilians also felt deceived and used.

Starfleet had long been the most visible institution of the Federation, its most prestigious branch.

Now, it was the most hated. The Imperials had already impounded what ships remained, and while they allowed crewmen to come and go during the day so long as they respected curfew, which alone kept mass lynching from taking place during the riots after Admiral Targaryen’s public address. Even then, the mobs might have stormed the grounded Starfleet ships, if not – ironically – for the Imperial Stormtroopers guarding them.

Eventually, the mobs had relented, the people’s anger cooling before they returned home, but it was still there. After a number of officers were beaten, raped, and even murdered after going around in uniform, Starfleet had gotten the hint and its members took care to avoid being recognized as such in public.

It was…disturbing, no matter how unsurprising and even natural a reaction it was to all the manipulation and deception that both Starfleet Security and Section 31 had had to do to keep the Federation safe. A sign that despite their claims to the contrary, Humanity – or at least the Terrans, as from what she knew the Coruscanti had never claimed as such – had never truly overcome its nature, and only suppressed it.

And Guinan didn’t know how to feel about that.

She knew, though, that a longtime friend of hers would be very broken up over it.

“Kendra,” Guinan said, turning to one of her assistants. “Take over for me. I need to attend to an old-time regular of mine.”

“Will do.” The junior bartender said, already fixing up cocktails for a pair of Imperial officers.

Meanwhile, Guinan was slipping out from behind the bar, through the crowds, and up a nearby staircase to the upper level, making her way to where Picard was sitting with a half-empty bottle of red wine. “Do you mind if I join you?” she asked.

Picard started at Guinan’s words, and then quickly relaxed and smiled. “Oh, no.” he said. “It’s perfectly alright. Please, sit. Help yourself.”

Guinan sat down opposite, patiently waiting for Picard to open up on his own. The old man was silent for a long time, though, staring out wistfully over the Martian landscape. As it was, it took about fifteen minutes before he finally spoke up.

“Did you know?” Picard began. “Mars was terraformed during the 22nd Century. It was a dream come true, one that went back centuries, to the 19th Century if not even earlier. Men and women could finally walk out onto the rust-red sands, and breathe deep of the air of another world.”

“I’m aware.” Guinan said. “Even though Humanity had colonies on other Earth-like worlds out there, to have another habitable world within the system of your own birth was something else entirely.”

“Yes.” Picard agreed with a nod. “But…while Humans could walk around without external air sources, the air remained thin. So thin you’d tire within minutes, and you’d blackout if you tried to exert yourself. Cold too…did you know Mars’ temperature barely averages one degree above the freezing point of water?”

“…Jean-Luc,” Guinan began. “What’s the matter?”

“…I was just thinking,” Picard said after a moment. “That Mars’ terraforming…it’s such an apt metaphor for everything we’ve believed about ourselves. For so long now, we’ve believed that we’ve overcome the flaws and frailties of the Human condition, and maturing as a species, were ready to move out into space. Only…we haven’t. Not really…it’s just a comforting lie, one built on countless corpses and inhumanities…we’ve become the next Soviet Union…if not the next Third Reich…”

“Jean-Luc…have you been talking to Q?”

Picard glanced at Guinan, and gave a sad smile. “Is it that obvious?” he asked.

Guinan didn’t answer, and just gave a knowing smile. Picard looked back out over the Martian sands, before sitting back and thinking to his meeting with the transcendent being days ago.

“Why?” Picard asked. “Why go this far?”

“Because you needed to open your eyes.” Q answered. “You could never understand how long I’ve watched your species. Believe it or not, Picard, your species truly has the potential to become like us. Not just the Continuum, but other transcendental races like the Metrons, the Organians, the Medusans, or even the Celestials of the Coruscantis’ past. But not like this. Not like this…would you entrust phenomenal cosmic power to your species, knowing what you now know about your civilization?”

“No, I wouldn’t.” Picard answered immediately.

“For once we agree.” Q said. “But like I said, I’ve watched your species for a very long time. And I’ve long since learned that when Humans get comfortable, or find themselves facing something they need but don’t want to see much less confront…they’d rather clap hands over their ears, close their eyes, and go ‘la, la, la, I can’t hear you’. When that time comes, the only way to get them to see, to understand, to actually face and overcome what’s staring at them in the face…it’s to remove all other choices beyond just that.”

“…yes.” Picard said with a sigh after a long moment. “I suppose I can’t argue with you there. Not after everything I’ve just seen, and putting my own past actions and beliefs in their new context.”

Q gave a sad smile. “You were never stupid, Picard.” He said. “Just so very Human.”

Picard gave Q a hard look, before licking his lips to moisten them. “Then let me act so very Human once more.” He said. “Are you one to judge?”

Q smiled wider. “Good question…” he said. “…but a complete answer would also answer another question beside that. So, ask.”

“Is the Empire really any better?” Picard asked. “They’re an expansionist, militaristic power, and from what we know of their history, has barely progressed socially in over twenty thousand years. In fact, they might even have regressed recently, with their Republic abandoning its democratic ideals to embrace autocracy by becoming the Empire after the Clone Wars.”

Q beamed. “Now, you’re asking all the questions.” He said. “No and yes. No, the Empire isn’t much better, but yet, it…or rather, your Coruscanti cousins, are better. In one way: they don’t deny their nature, or rather its darker part. By now, you’ve seen it yourself, haven’t you? They’re not all that different from you. But while you suppress the darker side of your being, your true selves, they don’t. It’s a part of them. It’s a part of all of you.”

Q paused and tilted his head. “It was, and still is, the same with us.” He said. “Little progress, you said, in over twenty thousand years? Picard, what is twenty thousand years in the grand scheme of the cosmos? For fourteen billion years it existed before you, and it might just exist for eternity after you. Even we took billions of years by your reckoning to even get at the start of where we are now. And even now, we struggle with who we once were, and still are. Or have you forgotten Q? Or Q?”

“…you said the trial never ends.” Picard said with sudden realization. “It’s not just for Humanity, is it? It’s the same for you too.”

Q spread his hands. “That’s the nature of life, Picard.” He said. “A constant struggle, against forces beyond its control from without, beyond, and most importantly, from within. And look, it wasn’t all bad.”

“What do you mean?”

Q clicked his tongue. “Come now, Picard.” He said. “Don’t be disappointing. Asking isn’t the beginning of learning. Before you can even ask a question, you need something else. And you know it. You’re a scientist, after all.”

“…I don’t know.”

Q nodded. “You don’t know.” He said. “Once you admit that, you can begin to learn. The Coruscanti have opened your eyes. Not just you Terrans, but also every other species the upstart Federation had also dragged into the mud. Now, you can truly begin anew.”

And beaming reassuringly at Picard, he was gone.


“And…do you believe him?” Guinan asked in disbelief, at the notion that Q could even hold an honest conversation with someone who wasn’t a transcendent themselves.

“In light of everything that’s happened, yes.” Picard said with a sigh. “But, don’t misunderstand. I don’t believe our ideals were wrong. They weren’t. Only the methods our…leaders, used were wrong. And while we’re back to step one, well, that only means we’ll have to try again, and do better this time.”

Despite herself, Guinan smiled. “Some would say you shouldn’t try, but simply do or don’t.” she remarked.

Picard smiled back. “Then I’ll say,” he responded. “Such black and white reasonings would be why the Federation failed in the first place. In particular, the notion of…utopia, at any cost.”

Guinan chuckled. “Utopia?” she echoed. “It almost sounds like you think the world where your ideals can truly bloom is just a dream.”

“It is.” Picard admitted. “At least for now…like I said, we’re back to step one. And I believe before everything else, we need to take a good long look at everything we know and has been revealed about our past, and give it all an equally good and long think. Only then can we learn the lessons we need to learn, and only with those lessons can we truly begin to move forward.”

Guinan sighed and smiled sadly. “It’s not going to be easy.” She warned. “Especially for people like you, who used to be such a…visible, figure of authority in the Federation, or at least Starfleet.”

“I never expected it to be.” Picard replied. “And it shouldn’t be. Otherwise, we wouldn’t value what we’d achieve in the end.”

Guinan smiled wider. “Well,” she said. “I guess that’s not a bad way to cope with your world getting turned upside down in the space of barely a month.”

Then she paused, and looked back down at the bar. “I’ll leave you to your thoughts.” She said. “But if you ever need someone to talk to, you know where to find me.”

Picard nodded, and then getting up, Guinan left with a reassuring squeeze of Picard’s shoulder. Alone again, Picard took his wineglass, and took a sip while looking out over the Martian landscape.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Reality flickered as a quintet of Klingon Birds-of-Prey dropped out of warp within the Sol System. They were immediately tracked by numerous Imperial patrols, followed by demands for identification. The Klingons responded promptly, the Imperial Fleet responding by sending a trio of cruisers to escort them closer into the system.

On the lead Klingon ship, Captain Orath Alvezh silently regarded the Vindicators leading them to where the Imperial Command Fleet was waiting. “Interesting.” A voice said, and the captain looked up in surprise at Dahar Master Akiz Mvonnek standing at his shoulder. And he didn’t even hear the other Klingon approach.

How terrifying of him, not that Orath would admit it.

“The Imperial ships?” he asked instead.

“Yes.” Akiz said. “You can learn a lot about your enemy by looking at the way they hold themselves…or even build their ships. Terrans build fast and light ships, with lots of weapons to hit hard in many different ways. But their weapons aren’t weapons, not really. Phasers are just overpowered tools, while their photon torpedoes are probes just loaded with an antimatter warhead. In short, they’re men of science playing at war.”

“Not all of them.” Orath demurred. “The Dominion War proved that much.”

“And yet,” Akiz countered in his turn. “The Coruscanti trample the Terrans underfoot, do they not?”

“…yes.” Orath admitted after a moment. “But the Coruscanti are…different. Not just from the Terrans, or the Vulcans, or indeed, any other Federation race. Different from us or the Romulans, or even the Dominion.”

Akiz chuckled. “Indeed,” he said, crossing his arms and gesturing at the Imperial cruisers. “I’m told their ships can be slow and ungainly, at least when traveling at sub-light. But their shields and armor are incredible for ships of their size, and they do have proper weapons.”

“They do.” Orath said with a nod. “Plasma cannons of some kind, very powerful, enough to gut most ships, whether ours or the Terrans with shields down. Ion cannons too, to disable ships for boarding.”

Orath paused, and grinned. “I hear their soldiers fight more like the Andorians than either Terrans or Vulcans.” He said. “A shame I never had the opportunity to face Coruscanti trying to board my ship. It sounds like it would have made a most interesting encounter.”

Akiz laughed uproariously at that, Orath chuckling in the captain’s chair. “They’re not warriors, though.” Akiz eventually said. “Not from what I’ve seen and heard of them. They’re soldiers. Different from us…almost like our mirror images…not that it changes things. They are worthy opponents…for the future. Now, though? They will make for worthy allies…proper allies, with which to spill blood and wash away the stains of dishonor left by the Terrans.”

“I do not think the Coruscanti will disappoint.” Orath said, and pressing a button, brought up long-distance scans and with them, an image of Earth’s Moon. “This…Targaryen, is a dangerous woman.”

Akiz smiled. “A woman after our own hearts, then.” He said, and shared another laugh with the captain.

It wasn’t long after that they approached the Imperial Command Fleet, gathered in orbit over Iapetus, a moon of Saturn, the second gas giant and sixth planet in the Sol System. And at its heart were the colossal Star Destroyers, from the kilometer-long Venators to the even bigger Imperials.

“Impressive.” Akiz said approvingly. “The Romulans build big too, but their ships mass less than they appear. The Coruscanti have the mass to match their ships’ size.”

“Those ships have plenty of empty space as well.” Orath pointed out. “They carry a lot of smaller craft, from small one-man fighters and bombers, to small troop transports.”

“It matters not.” Akiz scoffed. “The Coruscanti at least use what spaces their battleships – or even their cruisers – have well, to carry more means with which to bring the fight to their enemy. All the empty space a Romulan warbird has is just that: empty space. It shouldn’t come as a surprise, though.”

“Romulans…” Orath sneered. “…treacherous and craven knaves who skulk about with poison and hidden daggers, instead of fighting and killing their foes with honor.”

“…and yet even they have more honor than the Terrans’ hidden masters.” Akiz darkly said. “Contact the Imperial flagship, and ask for permission to board. Contact the rest of our ships as well. It’s time we meet this…Admiral Targaryen.”
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
I was originally going to reference the Illuminati or the Templars, but suddenly the Majestic Twelve seemed a more fitting shadow conspiracy to serve as the roots of Section 31.
Anyone else now greatly amused by imagining an Assassin's Creed game where you crawl through jefferies tubes and parkour around the variable-gravity environment of Starbase Yorktown to stab the latest insane admiral with an undetectable-by-technobabble wrist blade and relive genetic memories of the Vulcan civil war/Surak's reforms/the escape to Romulus, Jeffrey Combs is a repeatedly reincarnating progenitor Sage buried in the DNA of all humanoid species and the bossfights have the TOS fight music and shoddily acted martial arts?
 
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Airedale260

Well-known member
But he's also playing the same song. He's planning to restart the Federation and evolve to our better nature's. Deja vu all over again. Utopia here we come again only this time we'll mean it;) yeah right

I’m not so sure. Yes, Jean-Luc is an idealist of the highest order, but him doing it solo? Nope.

One of the background books (not a novel, a source book) once mentioned how he had a couple of old flames, one of whom flat out told him “You’re still a pompous ass” when they reunited. So I’d expect some tempering of that. By whom, I don’t know, but he does listen even if it takes a while to get through to him.

As for the Federation…representative democracy, liberty, equality before the law…the ideals are basically those of the Western world. But how the Federation has gone about it…well.

You’re looking at a thesis and antithesis between the Federation and the Empire. I have a feeling the synthesis (the end result) will be quite a surprise for pretty much everyone. But even Q hasn’t given up on Terran Humanity…I don’t expect them to start going going-ho militarist, but I do expect them to change and adapt significantly.

As for Starfleet…

I actually kind of feel bad for the average (non-Section 31) member. Starfleet is kind of like the Jedi of the Old Republic in being well above the average citizen of the Federation…but unlike the Jedi, Starfleet personnel don’t get selected because of mystical powers over which they have no control; they get in because they show some sort of aptitude after passing rigorous testing*.

They are quite intelligence, creative, adventurous, etc…and with very few exceptions, had no idea of the darker side of their organization. Plus I daresay a lot of them were horrified to discover the truth as well.

What that will bring for the future, I don’t know. I suspect a lot of them will either try and crawl away to hide out of shame, or else work hard to atone for the sins of Section 31 and their ilk. But on balance I think a lot of them didn’t deserve to be murdered, or raped, or whatever else. This isn’t the SS or the KGB** we’re talking about…a lot of them were genuinely committed to the ideals but genuinely didn’t know about the methods used by Section 31 (after all, they’re basically raised as their ancestors were…most of them would have no clue given the mass indoctrination).

*-Fun fact, Picard actually failed out of the testing process the first time he tried to join Starfleet. Canonically, he studied his ass off for the rest of the year and basically used his stubbornness to keep trying again and again (though he passed on his second attempt). It caused a lot of tension in the family, but he did it (and made peace with them). And I think his tenacity will serve him (and everyone else) well. I don’t think he’ll be that happy about the Empire, but I can see him working to build something better.
 

AspblastUSA

Well-known member
But he's also playing the same song. He's planning to restart the Federation and evolve to our better nature's. Deja vu all over again. Utopia here we come again only this time we'll mean it;) yeah right

On top of what the others have said, this is also Picard at the very beginning of his journey. I don't think anyone should hold it against Picard that at his earliest and most optimistic vision he wants to take the Federation vision, that he has believed in and believed to be a force for good his entire life, and make it real. It is as he begins making moves to solidify his vision of the future that we should judge him: whether he compromises the dream to aim for something actually achievable, doubles down and so commits unknowingly to repeating the sins of the past, or grows bitter and defeated.
 

Jaenera Targaryen

Well-known member
The question is, what's he gonna do now and what're the chances the ISB is currently coming for him because they don't want someone changing the status quo they're currently on top of? And what the hell was he thinking, going to Imperial-held Mars instead of making a run for it and turning pirate?

The Enterprise-E was crippled in the battle, and while it's more or less livable, it can't go to warp. Not without a full refit, which it can't get since Starfleet blew Utopia Planitia, and the Empire destroyed Spacedock 1 in the Battle of Earth. And even if they could, there are interdictors around Mars in case any of the grounded Starfleet ships try to make a run for it. The Empire would drag them out of warp and then storm them.

Basically, after United Earth surrendered, the Empire - or rather, Admiral Targaryen - has opted to be lenient towards Starfleet units stranded in-system. The ships are impounded on Mars, and the crews must remain inside during curfew hours, but they're allowed regular leave passes.

That said, there is an unspoken understanding that abusing the Empire's patience is something that will be punished harshly. That, and the stranded Starfleet personnel know that they don't need to give the civilians even more reason to distrust them after the Section 31 disclosures.

As for the Federation…representative democracy, liberty, equality before the law…the ideals are basically those of the Western world. But how the Federation has gone about it…well.

Yeah, those are the ideals they publicly trumpet, and most of their citizens do believe in them, or at least their form. The main problem is that Section 31 doesn't, as their ideal is utopia, and they're willing to go to any lengths to make it reality, or some semblance thereof.

The second problem is that even though the Federation's citizens believe in those ideals, after having lived in Section 31's gilded cage for so long, they may not know how to apply those ideals in reality. Or at least the finer details thereof.

You’re looking at a thesis and antithesis between the Federation and the Empire. I have a feeling the synthesis (the end result) will be quite a surprise for pretty much everyone. But even Q hasn’t given up on Terran Humanity…I don’t expect them to start going going-ho militarist, but I do expect them to change and adapt significantly.

He hasn't. Q basically just wants the Coruscanti to inject fire and spirit back into the stagnating Terran society. Maybe even give them back something they've lost since at least Kirk's days, the ability to believe in something...beyond, rationality and science.

As for Starfleet…

I actually kind of feel bad for the average (non-Section 31) member. Starfleet is kind of like the Jedi of the Old Republic in being well above the average citizen of the Federation…but unlike the Jedi, Starfleet personnel don’t get selected because of mystical powers over which they have no control; they get in because they show some sort of aptitude after passing rigorous testing*.

They are quite intelligence, creative, adventurous, etc…and with very few exceptions, had no idea of the darker side of their organization. Plus I daresay a lot of them were horrified to discover the truth as well.

What that will bring for the future, I don’t know. I suspect a lot of them will either try and crawl away to hide out of shame, or else work hard to atone for the sins of Section 31 and their ilk. But on balance I think a lot of them didn’t deserve to be murdered, or raped, or whatever else. This isn’t the SS or the KGB** we’re talking about…a lot of them were genuinely committed to the ideals but genuinely didn’t know about the methods used by Section 31 (after all, they’re basically raised as their ancestors were…most of them would have no clue given the mass indoctrination).

Agreed; unfortunately, this is what happens when a mob mentality forms. It's not the most admirable example of what Human nature can result in, but sadly, this is also part of Q's lesson. Terran Humanity has not 'evolved' or 'surpassed' its base nature, anymore than the Q have. They merely suppressed and then forgot it. And they cannot truly advance no matter how much they want or try until they come to terms with it.
 

Airedale260

Well-known member
Yeah, those are the ideals they publicly trumpet, and most of their citizens do believe in them, or at least their form. The main problem is that Section 31 doesn't, as their ideal is utopia, and they're willing to go to any lengths to make it reality, or some semblance thereof.

The second problem is that even though the Federation's citizens believe in those ideals, after having lived in Section 31's gilded cage for so long, they may not know how to apply those ideals in reality. Or at least the finer details thereof.

Sure, and I get that. On the other hand, I think there will be a lot of soul-searching, and I find it rather difficult to believe that, among the people who were stuck in the camps or Tartarus, that there aren’t at least a couple of scholars, lawyers, and whatnot who do understand it and can work on the whole growing pains thing.

He hasn't. Q basically just wants the Coruscanti to inject fire and spirit back into the stagnating Terran society. Maybe even give them back something they've lost since at least Kirk's days, the ability to believe in something...beyond, rationality and science.

Right. And at the same time, possibly it’ll inject something into Coruscanti humanity too…part of the problem with the Republic and later the Empire was the fact that, much like a number of empires, without an external threat to really unify them (a very human thing, even in multi species nations), they start turning on each other. Again, we shall see, but I don’t think it’s unrealistic to think Terran humanity can start to remember its heritage.

It’s kind of amusing in a way, but I think Picard may be in a bit of a better position to deal with this, given time to consider it: He grew up with a father who was resolutely opposed to using machines and technology to grow wine…Maurice did it the old-fashioned way, and as much as Jean-Luc (who’s always been a science buff and an adventurer according to the lore) found it confusing and occasionally irritating at first…once he joined Starfleet he noted that his father may have had some good points about maintaining the old knowledge and such, as it did still work. Whether he will make the connection, I’m not sure, but the potential is certainly there.

Agreed; unfortunately, this is what happens when a mob mentality forms. It's not the most admirable example of what Human nature can result in, but sadly, this is also part of Q's lesson. Terran Humanity has not 'evolved' or 'surpassed' its base nature, anymore than the Q have. They merely suppressed and then forgot it. And they cannot truly advance no matter how much they want or try until they come to terms with it.

Right. Well, again, we shall see how it turns out. Thanks for the update being so quick, by the way :)
 

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