Nature of Watcher in the Water

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist

Watcher in the Water is one of many shady creatures populating Tolkien’s Legendarium. Nobody knows where it came from, what its intents or even basic nature are. Even its appearance is unknown: the only thing it ever revealed were the tentacles, while the Watcher itself stayed underwater.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
"It is unlikely however that the Watcher was created by either Morgoth or Sauron. Evil creatures of Morgoth avoid water and fear it, while the Watcher dwells in it. Ulmo also had a much more active involvement in the affairs of the Middle Earth, and as far as is known none of his Maiar joined Morgoth. Lastly, water is a symbol of purity – the reason why Morgoth’s creatures fear it – so a spawn of Satan would not have dwelt there. Ulmo himself rivalled Manwe in power, and he even has two named Maiar – Uinen and Osse – implying that his Maiar are also extraordinarily powerful. "

Hmmm that's true normally... but a given body of water can be defiled and made unclean. There's a passage in the Silmarillion where Ulmo sends word to the Elves of Nargothrond that he will no longer be able to protect them, as Morgoth's forces are defiling the rivers, "and my fingers withdraw from the running streams".
Melkor and Ulmo were in a spiritual struggle for control over that particular river system, and Ulmo was losing.
It's the deep ocean where Ulmo reigns unchallenged.
 

ATP

Well-known member

Watcher in the Water is one of many shady creatures populating Tolkien’s Legendarium. Nobody knows where it came from, what its intents or even basic nature are. Even its appearance is unknown: the only thing it ever revealed were the tentacles, while the Watcher itself stayed underwater.

Water equivalent of Ungolianta,i think.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
"It is unlikely however that the Watcher was created by either Morgoth or Sauron. Evil creatures of Morgoth avoid water and fear it, while the Watcher dwells in it. Ulmo also had a much more active involvement in the affairs of the Middle Earth, and as far as is known none of his Maiar joined Morgoth. Lastly, water is a symbol of purity – the reason why Morgoth’s creatures fear it – so a spawn of Satan would not have dwelt there. Ulmo himself rivalled Manwe in power, and he even has two named Maiar – Uinen and Osse – implying that his Maiar are also extraordinarily powerful. "

Hmmm that's true normally... but a given body of water can be defiled and made unclean. There's a passage in the Silmarillion where Ulmo sends word to the Elves of Nargothrond that he will no longer be able to protect them, as Morgoth's forces are defiling the rivers, "and my fingers withdraw from the running streams".
Melkor and Ulmo were in a spiritual struggle for control over that particular river system, and Ulmo was losing.
It's the deep ocean where Ulmo reigns unchallenged.

So there is a possibility Sauron or Balrog actually corrupted the stream and the lake created by blocking it to allow the Watcher to dwell there?
 

StormEagle

Well-known member
‘Then,’ said Glorfindel, ‘let us cast it into the deeps, and
so make the lies of Saruman come true. For it is clear now
that even at the Council his feet were already on a crooked
path. He knew that the Ring was not lost for ever, but wished
us to think so; for he began to lust for it for himself. Yet oft
in lies truth is hidden: in the Sea it would be safe.’
‘Not safe for ever,’ said Gandalf. ‘There are many things
in the deep waters
; and seas and lands may change. And it is
not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a
few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world. We should
seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to
make one.’

I find it entirely likely that the watcher is another perversion of Melkor. Ever did the great enemy enjoy making mockery of the creations of Eru and creatures that were beloved by the other Valar.

Just as the trolls were made in mockery of the ents, and the orcs made twisted reflections of the elves, the watcher was probably made to mock Ulmo in some way.
 

Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
Since none of the Ainur know where Ungoliant came from, my theory is that Ungoliant came from some other world Eru created. She traversed the Void and arrived in Arda. She probably left Arda and travelled back into the Void. The Watcher could be another such creature or being, or the spawn of one.
 
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Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Since none of the Ainur know where Ungoliant came from, my theory is that Ungoliant came from some other world Eru created. She traversed the Void and arrived in Arda. She probably left Arda and travelled back into the Void. The Watcher could be another such creature or being, or the spawn of one.

Wasn't there reference about her being from the void? Maybe even its personification, given her horror hunger (much like Bombadil may be personification/spirit of nature / Middle Earth)?
 
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Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
Since none of the Ainur know where Ungoliant came from, my theory is that Ungoliant came from some other world Eru created. She traversed the Void and arrived in Arda. She probably left Arda and travelled back into the Void. The Watcher could be another such creature or being, or the spawn of one.

Well... the Valar did not know about Ungoliant - but they're not the only Ainur, not by a long way.
Like a lot of things, we don't have a definitive answer because Tolkien himself never quite made up his mind. But the explanation he seems to have been going with in his later drafts as that she was an Ainu who followed Melkor early on, but then went AWOL to go do her own thing.
Manwe and co seem to have had no idea that she was hiding there in Avathar, but Melkor obviously knew exactly where to go to find her and demand that she return to his service, once he had need of her special powers.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
Just for fun...

Interview with one of Tolkien's Nameless Things

Scottty: "Greetings, nameless tentacled creature who sleeps in the foundations of stone! Be nameless no more, I name you... Oscar!"
Oscar: "Greetings, strange human. How did you get in here, and why have you disturbed my slumber?"

Scottty: "I'm here to ask you some questions. Answer them and I'll go away."
Oscar: "Ask your questions, human"

Scottty: "Alright, first off: what are you?"
Oscar: "What am I? I am myself!"

Scottty: "Are there others like you?"
Oscar: "Once there were many of us, definitely. Now? I do not know."

Scottty: "What is your origin? How did you come to be?"
Oscar: "Interesting question. Among the elves it was claimed that my kindred were spawned from the fire and darkness of the world's beginnings. Others have insolently suggested that we were once brute beasts, until granted the power of reason by the will of the Master. I prefer to believe that we were spirits summoned from afar, taking visible form with the matter of the world to which we were drawn."

Scottty: "But don't you yourself know the answer?"
Oscar: "Little human... if human you are... do you recall the moment of your birth? Have you memories of your time in your mother's womb? Where you observing when your parents..."

Scottty: "Point taken. Moving on. Do you take orders from Sauron?"
Oscar: "From who? Oh, I perceive who you mean, though we called him by a different name. No, little human, I do not! I was old in the service of the Master when the one you call Sauron was first recruited! Whatever petty schemes he might be up to on the surface world are of no concern to me."

Scottty: "Who then is your master?"
Oscar: "The Master is The One Who Arises In Might, the most powerful being in the universe! Who else? Little human, why do you bother me with questions with such obvious answers?"

Scottty: "So you serve Melkor?"
Oscar: "That is the name the Elves of old had for him. Yes, indeed."

Scottty: "Does that mean you are evil?"
Oscar: "What does 'evil' mean, little human? I do what it is my nature to do, just as you do according to yours - which apparently is to trouble beings like myself with questions. I grow weary of this!"

Scottty: "I will depart soon. Tell me first of how you serve your master."
Oscar: "Gladly! The Master, who you refer to as Melkor, is the rightful lord and ruler of all the world. One day he shall return from beyond, to take back what is his, and punish those who defied and usurped him. With him shall be all who are loyal - I myself will be gathered to that host! Then we shall have our revenge!"

Scottty: "Revenge on the Valar?"
Oscar: "Yes! It is not their world, it belongs to the Master! We will take it back! Now go, human, leave me to sleep!"
Scottty: "Goodbye, Oscar."
 

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