NGSW and other Military Rifle R&D

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
The US Army has been "replacing" the 5.56mm and AR-15/M4 receiver system for literal decades.
All those projects have come to nothing but a waste of millions of dollars.
Like the US Army projects to replaced the M1 Abrams, M2/M3 Bradley, and the M113 APC.
Waste of money.

Closest thing that came to fruition was the XM25.
Real game changer that was field tested in Afghanistan and the troops loved it.
Made those Talib rats scramble off with their tails between their legs.
And then one little failure and it gets yeeted to oblivion.
Coming from the same people who approved the Hasbro M-16, which I find very hilarious.
Almost as if the Cabal up top don't want the balance to tip, so they can keep this sham war in the MidEast going as long as possible.

Another problem is that Congress is in charge of the Army and how much money they get and all that stuff.
Remember the Zumwalt class?
Congressional idiocy cancelled the project despite the fact that doing so would render all the investment worthless and cause the main gun's ammo to skyrocket in price to $1M a shell.
And now they want to chuck a railgun in it's place despite the most up to date system being decades away from being viable.

Another big problem with the US Army's infantry arsenal is it's shotgun.
US Army still uses a pump action when Russia's got a full auto shotgun (Saiga 12) that's just as reliable.
Saiga 12 is so good, even some branches of the US military use it.
While the AA-12 has been literally been available for decades.

Thus, I don't foresee any real changes coming to the US Army's infantry arsenal anytime soon.
By the time Congress gets it's head out of it's ass, I'll be as old as Rip van Wrinkle.
The US Army also only gives Shotguns for breaching over combat use, except for rangers. Because the M4 is good and we also have the shove a SAW in a window and fire randomly as well tactic. Full auto doesn't mean something is better. THe US also has 4 shotguns they use. We have a modular semi one, a semi and a Pump.

The Army is also starting to plan to replace the Abrams, even though they already have ordered new Abrams, and it only in the idea phase for a new tank.

As for the NGSW. The Army Future Command has already planned for at least 100k of the chosen NGSW to be used by front line current units. Mainly to start the transition to making it fully integrated into the Army over time.

For once, the US Army are not backing down off of this. Congress has approved the US Army to do this, because when preparing for a new force on force war, the US wants to be ready.

But again, what do I know
 

bullethead

Part-time fanfic writer
Super Moderator
Staff Member
The NGSW is probably going to result in Textron winning and maybe True Velocity getting a big ammo contract for legacy systems. The Army has spent basically 15 years getting the LSAT/cased telescoped polymer ammo off the ground. This trial is a formality after the XM8 debacle, to make sure they aren't crazy or too tunnel-visioned on one solution.

The benefits of the Textron ammo are too good, even when mated with the Army's potentially dumb 6.8mm round. The belt-fed machine gun is lighter than the 5.56mm SAW, which is a huge weight savings. 7.62 NATO is probably going to be rendered obsolete entirely and slowly phased out.

The big question is what's going to happen with all the 5.56mm guns and ammo, because the 5.56mm cased telescoped ammo wound up being around the diameter of a .357 Magnum case, so if you switched all those to cased telescoped (which might be plausible), you could get some crazy designs.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
The NGSW is probably going to result in Textron winning and maybe True Velocity getting a big ammo contract for legacy systems. The Army has spent basically 15 years getting the LSAT/cased telescoped polymer ammo off the ground. This trial is a formality after the XM8 debacle, to make sure they aren't crazy or too tunnel-visioned on one solution.

The benefits of the Textron ammo are too good, even when mated with the Army's potentially dumb 6.8mm round. The belt-fed machine gun is lighter than the 5.56mm SAW, which is a huge weight savings. 7.62 NATO is probably going to be rendered obsolete entirely and slowly phased out.

The big question is what's going to happen with all the 5.56mm guns and ammo, because the 5.56mm cased telescoped ammo wound up being around the diameter of a .357 Magnum case, so if you switched all those to cased telescoped (which might be plausible), you could get some crazy designs.
I don't know. SIG has a chance still. They also happen to be the easiest to make full production. Thier Ammo may be the reason for their loss.

GD has a standard bullet design that seems like it would be good
 

bullethead

Part-time fanfic writer
Super Moderator
Staff Member
I don't know. SIG has a chance still. They also happen to be the easiest to make full production. Thier Ammo may be the reason for their loss.
SIG is a dead end in every respect.

Textron is the favorite because it's the Army's baby and it has a ton of benefits in their ammo design:
-Light weight
-Smaller volume for packing
-Push through extraction eliminates a number of problems with traditional ammo
-Theoretically cheaper to make, once production tooling fully established

True Velocity is a nice middle ground that seems to be backwards compatible with existing guns, at least on some guns (like the Knights Armament Company Light Assault Machine Gun). I don't think it'll win on those grounds, since cost is out the window as a selection criteria, aside from in the case of a tie.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
SIG is a dead end in every respect.

Textron is the favorite because it's the Army's baby and it has a ton of benefits in their ammo design:
-Light weight
-Smaller volume for packing
-Push through extraction eliminates a number of problems with traditional ammo
-Theoretically cheaper to make, once production tooling fully established

True Velocity is a nice middle ground that seems to be backwards compatible with existing guns, at least on some guns (like the Knights Armament Company Light Assault Machine Gun). I don't think it'll win on those grounds, since cost is out the window as a selection criteria, aside from in the case of a tie.
I am worried about the electronics of it
 

bullethead

Part-time fanfic writer
Super Moderator
Staff Member
I am worried about the electronics of it
The smart rail stuff or the sights? Because the sights are by a totally different company.

Smart rail durability and longevity is definitely something to worry about long term, but the fundamental mechanisms of the Textron designs should be fine.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
The smart rail stuff or the sights? Because the sights are by a totally different company.

Smart rail durability and longevity is definitely something to worry about long term, but the fundamental mechanisms of the Textron designs should be fine.
The smart rail.
The Army doesn't need MORE tech that can break. Why do you think I like GD and SIG over Textron
 

bullethead

Part-time fanfic writer
Super Moderator
Staff Member
The Army doesn't need MORE tech that can break. Why do you think I like GD and SIG over Textron
Because you don't get that the Textron system is actually mechanically simpler than what we've been using for over a century (which is super counter intuitive), and you're ignoring that both GD and SIG have smart rails:
Ekh9jtPXgAE5zj0.jpg


That black thing over the left side ejection port cover is a battery pack for the smart rail.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Yeah, the real problem in the decades post-Cold War was that certain stupid ideologies popped up and military spending wasn't as useful anymore despite the fact that the US became hegemon of the planet (more or less), which necessitates the need for larger military in the first place.

Also, the 'smart rail' is simply an improved rail with the ability to reduce the size (and weight) of various computerized scopes that have been in development. In this case, the OICW's FCS scope. The thing with these FCS scopes is that we're going to need them anyway because the new ammunition would make it impossible to do the various bits of ballistics in your head at a drop of a hat (from what I know, only snipers and marksmen can do that easily).
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
The smart rail and the new sight are on all three. Because the Army wants it that way.
Because you don't get that the Textron system is actually mechanically simpler than what we've been using for over a century (which is super counter intuitive), and you're ignoring that both GD and SIG have smart rails:
Ekh9jtPXgAE5zj0.jpg


That black thing over the left side ejection port cover is a battery pack for the smart rail.
Me being stupid.
How is textron simpler then what we are using?
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
Me being stupid.
How is textron simpler then what we are using?

Push through ejection with a rising and dropping breach block is mechanically simpler than extraction and ejection of metallic cases. You have to watch the operating principle animations to really appreciate it, especially if you are unfamiliar with the mechanical principles of self loading firearms with self contained metallic cartridges.

Here’s the FAL:

And here’s the Textron NGSW:
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Ohhhhhhhhh
Okay, does seem better.
My only issue is the thickness of the foregrip because of that
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
If the Textron bid is the clear favorite than I could see actual changeover happening. IMO 5.56 won't be replaced until a new technology is developed to a sufficient level that there are clear massive benefits to replacing it that outweigh the cost of replacing the M4 and 5.56.

Hard to justify that for what basically amounts to changing over to the AR-10.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Since redesigned. The early prototypes had the smart rail batteries in that fat ass fore grip. But test dummy GIs complained so there was a redesign.
That is what I was remebering.
Didnt they get Normal infantry instead of SF and Rangers for this test? Or am I remembering wrong
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
That is what I was remebering.
Didnt they get Normal infantry instead of SF and Rangers for this test? Or am I remembering wrong

Dunno. Hopefully all the above and then some.


If the Textron bid is the clear favorite than I could see actual changeover happening. IMO 5.56 won't be replaced until a new technology is developed to a sufficient level that there are clear massive benefits to replacing it that outweigh the cost of replacing the M4 and 5.56.

Hard to justify that for what basically amounts to changing over to the AR-10.

Maybe. If you’re going to do this (which I still think is a bad idea) then the Textron is the one to do.

But Textron doesn’t have the $$$ to get votes from congress critters so Sig probably wins in the end.
 

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