Operation Sealion Megathread...

ATP

Well-known member
Once Hitler gained power, unless he was knocked out quickly there was always going to be war. If that had happened the empire was still going to go. Simple social and political change. If there had been no war then the loss of empire would have been a bit later and there is the danger it might have been far bloodier.

If Poland had submitted to Hitler's initial demands then more would have quickly followed, especially if the western powers hadn't made clear they would stand by their guarantee of Polish western borders. Hitler wouldn't have tolerated a Polish state plus he would have wanted the territory for an attack on the Soviets. Once the allies failed to stand up to Hitler early enough to stop him quickly there was going to be war and after the Munich Agreement Poland was very likely to be under Nazi occupation. Unfortunately by that stage, barring very dramatic changes it was facing at least one brutal if not murderous occupation.:cry:



Well we will never know for certain but all the evidence is that such an attack, at least without a POD long before the fall of France, would fail. There's the possibility that some landings by parachutists might have triggered a collapse of British moral and Churchill's overthrown by someone who would make peace with Germany but I think that was very unlikely and without ASB intervention that's the only way I can think of for a successful 1940 Sealion.

Steve

1.Hitler was anglofile,so as long as he lived England Empire would be safe - but his successor could see things in another way.
Especially if England try to mess with Europe.

Poland last chance was alliance with Czech in 1938,after that we could help Hitler conqer soviets/which would worked - less way to cross and 40 more dyvisions/ and later become puppet state or die,or choose suicidal but honorable war in 1939.

Personally,i am glad that we wase suicidally honorable - Hitler would probably get rid of us after conqering soviets anyway,or - which is worst - turned into worst german copies.

2.Kesserling was overconfident about Luftwaffe abilities in 1940,so his belive that they could win probably are false.
Maybe,if somebody made realistic game in which Kesserling strategy was used in,let say september 1940,we would knew more.
 
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BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
2.Kesserling was overconfident about Luftwaffe abilities in 1940,so his belive that they could win probably are false.
Maybe,if somebody made realistic game in which Kesserling strategy was used in,let say september 1940,we would knew more.
Open General.
Look for the "We Search for Ways" campaign.
 
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Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
Which causes USA to promptly declare war on Japan and Germany.
If Nazi Germany wants to even survive WW2, they have to keep USA neutral.
Otherwise it's only a matter of time before "splat".

Nah... they'll be too busy debating cutting off natural resources from poor Italy and their extremely awkward War in China.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Maybe Sea Lion would be feasible if you switch places between Italy and Japan (handwaving all of the crazy insanity that would imply environmentally and historically etc) and instead of Italy being Germany's primary European partner, it's actually Japan that enters the war in June of 1940 on Germany's side. :p

:sneaky:
That would definitely give a good opportunity, although possibly even more so if switching Japan for Spain as that would give clear access to the Atlantic. As you say that would need ASB intervention and ignoring a lot of effects and also assume that Japan and Germany are still friendly here, which might not be the case. Given the size of the Japanese fleet, possibly adding the Italian as well here and their powerful air arm on top of the Luftwaffe that makes an invasion far more likely to succeed. I wouldn't like to be in Britain in that scenario. :eek:

Steve
 

stevep

Well-known member
Which causes USA to promptly declare war on Japan and Germany.
If Nazi Germany wants to even survive WW2, they have to keep USA neutral.
Otherwise it's only a matter of time before "splat".


That would depend on the circumstances. If Japan is based in Europe would it still be busy invading China? [If it was its probably screwed now with the vastly greater supply lines that would be involved].

Even if it was would that greatly change the US stance at this stage. The fall of France and expected rapid defeat of Britain by the Nazis was a serious wake up call but it didn't greatly chance the US's political stance. They started building up their military more rapidly but there was still a strongly isolationist faction and FDR was going for a rather controversial 3rd term so he wasn't that willing to take many risks politically.

Even if the US did declare was then its unlikely it could have any impact in protecting Britain, especially if the swap is Japan for Spain as I suggested. Then the US faces the possibility of a very long war with an enemy it can't really touch as there's an ocean between them which is likely to lead to an armistice I suspect.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
Hmmm maybe I'll ponder writing up a brief ASB scenario with Japan somehow being located in Europe and seeing how that would expand. No need for the Hearts of Iron modders to get all of the fun transposing countries for the purposes of wild alternate history.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Hmmm maybe I'll ponder writing up a brief ASB scenario with Japan somehow being located in Europe and seeing how that would expand. No need for the Hearts of Iron modders to get all of the fun transposing countries for the purposes of wild alternate history.

That would be interesting, although as a Brit I have a feeling I won't like it much. Would it be a sudden change as getting an East Asian population and culture based in Europe without an ISOT would be quite a challenge I suspect.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
That would be interesting, although as a Brit I have a feeling I won't like it much. Would it be a sudden change as getting an East Asian population and culture based in Europe without an ISOT would be quite a challenge I suspect.

Yeah I mean I'm not big on writing up alternate history but I would imagine some sort of ISOT that handwaves away a lot of the translocation issues would be the best bet. And the suggestion of Span is a good idea... since Japan's Navy would be kinda awkward cooped up in the Med... but with all of the other ASB... well it does seem kind of like one concern of many. :p
 

stevep

Well-known member
1.Hitler was anglofile,so as long as he lived England Empire would be safe - but his successor could see things in another way.
Especially if England try to mess with Europe.

Poland last chance was alliance with Czech in 1938,after that we could help Hitler conqer soviets/which would worked - less way to cross and 40 more dyvisions/ and later become puppet state or die,or choose suicidal but honorable war in 1939.

Personally,i am glad that we wase suicidally honorable - Hitler would probably get rid of us after conqering soviets anyway,or - which is worst - turned into worst german copies.

2.Kesserling was overconfident about Luftwaffe abilities in 1940,so his belive that they could win probably are false.
Maybe,if somebody made realistic game in which Kesserling strategy was used in,let say september 1940,we would knew more.


Sorry missed this earlier. Managed to overlook the 4th page. :oops:

Hitler was a raging megalomaniac so no one was safe. Plus as you say even if Britain managed to survive him his successor could think differently.

A Polish-Czech alliance, which might have been joined by others could work, although it would need France and Britain to pitch in actively to make sure that Nazi Germany would be defeated. Hitler would definitely turn on Poland at some point, between his desire for your land and racial hatred of Slavs.

Most German military figures tended to be over-confident over what they could have done, especially when writing books after the war - Manstein's "Lost Victories" is the most famous example. I think given the lack of ability to transfer forces and support them plus the huge naval advantage Britain had that any real chance of success was pretty much nil.
 

Agent23

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ATP

Well-known member
The Germans develop Monty Python's Killing Joke first and then they invade!
Or,they manage to create Odin and other german gods thanks to their death camps.I remember some american sci-fi story about that...forget author,as usual.
 

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