Phoenician/Carthage colonies in Americas/Africa.

ATP

Well-known member
Both people had powerfull fleets,good ships and crews,good captains,too.They certainly knew Madera,probable Brasil,Carribean and coast of entire Africa.
Prof. Bernard da silva Ramos in Brasil discovered at least 2800 phoenician inscripcions there.Władysław Netto translated another from Parahyba.

So,what if Phoenicians /Carthaginians started colonies in Brasil,Carribean South Africa? how would it change History?
 

ATP

Well-known member
Phoenicians were taken by Carthage - so,it would be their colonies.They lost to Rome,so they would hide and build waiting for enemy invasion.
What would happen,when such invasion do not occur for another 2000 years?

I see them conqering South Africa,Madagascar,Carribean and Brasil coast.Later,they would take on Mexico,too.
No contact with Europe till Vasco da Gama and Columbus - but then,european would face real oposition with fleets of galleys and armies with steel weapons.
No easy conqer there.
Portugal would never get to India,Spain could take few islands on Carribeans,but that would be all.
Results - no powerfull Portugal and Spain.

And,americas could be ruled by dudes sacrifising children to Moloch.Well,Democrats are doing the same,so no big change?
 

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
Interesting,how much Carthaginian could take in this scenario.Probably only shores of Brasila,Mexico and entire Carribean
@Circle of Willis ,what do you think?
My understanding is that the Carthaginian style of colonization was all about establishing trading posts and coastal colonies with an eye on maximizing profit, but they weren't really into conquering huge tracts of territory inland & imposing a strong colonial authority and 'Punicization' on the natives (that would be more the Romans' thing).

It'd be rough given the distances & technological constraints, but maybe they could pull off a Canaries-->Madeira-->Azores-->the Caribbean/Brazil route? I can't see too much coming out of it though, as the Carthaginians would be much more concerned about their prospects close to home in Iberia, Italy & the Mediterranean in general to dedicate much resources along such a lengthy route into the west. Plus given their very light touch in colonial affairs as mentioned above, I can't see them leaving a massive footprint in the Americas either - longest term impact is that they might give the native peoples of the Caribbean and/or Brazil an immunity to Old World disease and metalworking for tools/weapons via exchange. (It'd probably be very difficult to transport horses and elephants across the Atlantic with the sort of ships they had)

If Carthage still fights & loses the Punic Wars, then maybe you'd get some real settlements going as Carthaginians flee west to build a new life away from the Romans who've just destroyed their hometown. And if the Romans decide that they haven't truly destroyed Carthage so long as those remnants far across the sea haven't been snuffed out yet, then you'd have your impetus for the Romans to try crossing the Atlantic and laying down colonies of their own, unleashing a tsunami of butterflies onto the New World.
 

Buba

A total creep
Prof. Bernard da silva Ramos in Brasil discovered at least 2800 phoenician inscripcions there.
Disputed.
Władysław Netto translated another from Parahyba
Wow! Where did you dig up that old spelling for Paraiba?

I do not believe that Carthaginian craft could had "worked" transatlantic routes, hence no colonies.
Had there been any then, of course, history is changed beyond recognition.

However, maybe a trade or exploration fleet is blown off the West African coast and ends up across the ocean. If enough people survive to set up a community and the lethal, brain addling climate does not kill them they could preserve most of their Iron Age technology, as IMO they would be better equipped (skills wise) than a purely military unit discussed in a similar thread involving Romans.

However, surviving until 1500, with such a small population base is, to put it mildly, tricky. If they do then they are probably unrecogniseable (at first glance, at least) as having roots in the Mediterranean. They may even be Arawak, Karib or Guarani (and thus Buba exhausts his list of Indian languages he knows about) speakers by then, even if preserving script.
 

ATP

Well-known member
My understanding is that the Carthaginian style of colonization was all about establishing trading posts and coastal colonies with an eye on maximizing profit, but they weren't really into conquering huge tracts of territory inland & imposing a strong colonial authority and 'Punicization' on the natives (that would be more the Romans' thing).

It'd be rough given the distances & technological constraints, but maybe they could pull off a Canaries-->Madeira-->Azores-->the Caribbean/Brazil route? I can't see too much coming out of it though, as the Carthaginians would be much more concerned about their prospects close to home in Iberia, Italy & the Mediterranean in general to dedicate much resources along such a lengthy route into the west. Plus given their very light touch in colonial affairs as mentioned above, I can't see them leaving a massive footprint in the Americas either - longest term impact is that they might give the native peoples of the Caribbean and/or Brazil an immunity to Old World disease and metalworking for tools/weapons via exchange. (It'd probably be very difficult to transport horses and elephants across the Atlantic with the sort of ships they had)

If Carthage still fights & loses the Punic Wars, then maybe you'd get some real settlements going as Carthaginians flee west to build a new life away from the Romans who've just destroyed their hometown. And if the Romans decide that they haven't truly destroyed Carthage so long as those remnants far across the sea haven't been snuffed out yet, then you'd have your impetus for the Romans to try crossing the Atlantic and laying down colonies of their own, unleashing a tsunami of butterflies onto the New World.
One of greek writes speculated,that Carthage hide some paradise islands as place to hide if somebody destroyed their city.
But,would such colonies survive as carthaginians without fresh blood?
More interesting change would be if romans chased them there.

Disputed.

Wow! Where did you dig up that old spelling for Paraiba?

I do not believe that Carthaginian craft could had "worked" transatlantic routes, hence no colonies.
Had there been any then, of course, history is changed beyond recognition.

However, maybe a trade or exploration fleet is blown off the West African coast and ends up across the ocean. If enough people survive to set up a community and the lethal, brain addling climate does not kill them they could preserve most of their Iron Age technology, as IMO they would be better equipped (skills wise) than a purely military unit discussed in a similar thread involving Romans.

However, surviving until 1500, with such a small population base is, to put it mildly, tricky. If they do then they are probably unrecogniseable (at first glance, at least) as having roots in the Mediterranean. They may even be Arawak, Karib or Guarani (and thus Buba exhausts his list of Indian languages he knows about) speakers by then, even if preserving script.
Tajemnice starożytnej żeglugi,Tadeusz Łoposzko,1977 wydawnictwo morskie.
Interesting book.
And you are right,that their descendents in 1500AD would be very changed people.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
The notion that the Carthaginians "probably" reached the Americas is absolutely ludicrous.

Bernardo de Azevedo da Silva Ramos was deluding himself. Here we have the drawing of the "inscriptions":

Silva_Ramos%2C_Pedra_da_Gavea%2C_interpretation.gif




And here's the actual thing:

33015334934_0bd41253e9_b.jpg



...Yeah, those aren't giant carvings in the rock-face. That's a bunch of grooves left by natural erosion. All subsequent studies have confirmed that.

Note also that this mountain, Pedra da Gávea, is in Rio de Janeiro. That's not where you'd expect a Carthaginian landing. It's South of the Doldrums. A Carthaginian ships would have to be carried by the trade winds, and those would lead to Guyana and maybe Northern Brazil. If the Carthaginians had landed in the America's, we'd find the clearest evidence of it right there.


As for "at least 2800 Phoenician inscriptions" in Brazil-- that's just wholly made up. He only made a collection of claims about other supposed inscriptions. In other words: a big collection of tall tales, not one of which has subsequently been substantiated in any way.


Meanwhile, the Paraíba Stone was a notorious hoax; a contemporary counterfeit that was later exposed, and was widely ridiculed.


Conversely, the Carthaginian circumnavigation of Africa (although unsubstantiated) may well have happened. We know they traded all over the place, and they did travel North all the way to Britain (for tin) and were recorded as travelling down the West African coast as well.

That's very much the key thing here, however: along the coast. All ancient mariners were coast-huggers, because they didn't have the navigational instruments that allowed them to accurately determine their position when out of sight of land. This is why all the old maps are horribly distorted. They couldn't even get the shape of their home regions right! This changes when navigational tech develops. Then we see the maps getting way more "in shape", and this happens to also be the time when trans-atlantic voyages started getting underway.

Ships from the Classical period, of course, were also designed for the Med, not for the ocean. They could perform when close to the coast, but even then, it got risky in truly bad weather. Sailing out into the blue? Forget it. Nobody's doing that.


In summation: the stories about OTL Carthaginian colonisation in the New World are products of hoaxes and delusions, and there are very good reasons for that. It simply wasn't in the cards. As @Buba notes, a ship or even a flotilla (they didn't really have "trade fleets") blown off course might well get accidentally reach South Anerica. (It would almost certainly be an trade mission along the African coast, blown West in a storm, landing in the regions of the Guyanas, or maybe Northern Brazil.) But due to their ships being very much unsuited to the open ocean, it would be both a one-off event and a one-way trip.

Could such an incident produce a viable community? Well, maybe. If they had some cool stuff to trade on board, these men (it would be exclusively men) might integrate themselves with some coastal people. They almost certainly wouldn't have horses on board, but possibly some livestock? Maybe? Even then, it would be a very small animal population, which may not be viable.

The humans would get absorbed by the native population, although they would bring disease, and that would be a major shock. Afterwards, mixed-race descendants would be better-suited to survive these diseases, so they could potentially thrive. And come the next trans-atlantic contact, they'd be among the least susceptible to European diseases. (After centuries, they'd also be 'virgin soil', but the OTL Native Americans suffered from the genetic bottleneck of their founding population, resulting in an immune system ill-equipped to handle the diseases. The Carthaginians' mixed-race descendants would have a slight genetic advantage.)

As far as tech goes: unless iron is readily available where they land (highly unlikely), the tech becomes "lost technology" soon enough.
 
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Buba

A total creep
One of greek writes speculated,that Carthage hide some paradise islands as place to hide if somebody destroyed their city.
And there was a Greek writer who gave us Atlantis ... :p
Tajemnice starożytnej żeglugi,Tadeusz Łoposzko,1977 wydawnictwo morskie.
Thanks.
He must have used dated English or Spanish sources, I guess.
Searching for Parahyba leads to text in those languages, not Portuguese.
As far as tech goes: unless iron is readily available where they land
True, they would have to be very lucky - but they could also look around for other metals.
Still, they would need the right sort of people. Thinking of it - the best bet for a surviving settlement - established by accident - would be a flotilla :) carrying settlers for a newly created (or expanded) town in Iberia or Morrocco. Madeira?
 

bintananth

behind a desk
As @Skallagrim pointed out, the ships of the period were not suitable for long distance open ocean travel, let alone the North Atlantic.

The Polynesians did colonize pretty much everywhere in the Pacific with a natural fresh water source. The Pacific is also much calmer - hence the name - and colonization took awhile. The Maori first settled New Zealand in the late-13th Century ... around when Marco Polo was documenting his travels through China.

If Phoenicians/Carthiganians did reach and settle in Americas there'd be almost no archaeological or historical evidence.

We do have both for the Vikings. Their longships were much more seaworthy and sturdy than an oared galley. For them, "Lets go visit Greenland and come back" was something they could do on purpose with some planning. Vinland was just a bit too far for Viking sensibilities.

For a Pheonician/Carthiganian navigator reaching the Americas would have been "Thank the gods, we've spotted land." with no realistic hope of getting back because he probably hadn't seen any land for weeks. The crew would also have been starving, very dehydrated, and near death.
 

ATP

Well-known member
And there was a Greek writer who gave us Atlantis ... :p

Thanks.
He must have used dated English or Spanish sources, I guess.
Searching for Parahyba leads to text in those languages, not Portuguese.

True, they would have to be very lucky - but they could also look around for other metals.
Still, they would need the right sort of people. Thinking of it - the best bet for a surviving settlement - established by accident - would be a flotilla :) carrying settlers for a newly created (or expanded) town in Iberia or Morrocco. Madeira?
Phoenicians and Carthaginians do not leaved any description of their voyages,becouse it was state secret.But greek and romand wrote what they discovered about that:
1.Pauzaniasz/greek/ wrote about greek sailor Eufemos from Karia,who after storm go west and discovered island with people who had red skin,and hairs like horse tails.
2.roman Pomponiusz Mela wrote about few shipwrecked indians taken by indians and gave to romans.
3.Aristotle,Pomponiusz Mela and Piliniusz older wrote about paradise islands discovered by Carthage and keep in case if they must run from city.
Althought Piliniusz wrote probably about Canaries.

4.Scypion after destroing Carthage send fleet to found their hidden islands/nothing come of it/

5.Diodor wrote about great island West of Africa discovered by Carthage,which they keep not colonized just in case.

6.Carthaginians try to kill everybody who sailed on Atlantic from Med - but,in the same time,told about seas West of Africa as impossible to sail.
If they try to hide only England,then they would not lie about western seas.There must be something which they try to hide there.

7.We had myths about white teachers in Mexico/Quetzalcoatl/,Peru/Wirakocza/,Colombia/Bochica/,Jucatan/Zamma/,Brasil/Zume/,

So,i think that they sailed to Americas.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
So,i think that they sailed to Americas.
I'm pretty sure they didn't.

Figuring out where you are using a just a clock and the sunrise equation requires knowing how to calculate square roots and cosines by hand and doing it.

Yeah, that's just HS Algebra, Geometry, and Trigonemtry. That's also at least a year away from Calculus.
 

ATP

Well-known member
I'm pretty sure they didn't.

Figuring out where you are using a just a clock and the sunrise equation requires knowing how to calculate square roots and cosines by hand and doing it.

Yeah, that's just HS Algebra, Geometry, and Trigonemtry. That's also at least a year away from Calculus.

You do not need any of that to sail from Canaries to Carribean with right wings.In fact,people did it on boats.
So,once phoenicians knew that road,Carthage could use it.

And,not only them.When Sertorius rebelled against Rome and hold Spain,pirates proposed,that they took him and his retinue to Paradise islands.He refused and died,but offer were real.

And,remember that Carthaginians first killed anybody who tried sail to Atlantic,and later lied about western seas monsters and disasters which made sailing there impossible.

Greek and Romans belived them and never tried,but why carthaginians lies at all?
they must try to hide something west of Spain important for them - Carribean mostly.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
You do not need any of that to sail from Canaries to Carribean with right wings.In fact,people did it on boats.
So,once phoenicians knew that road,Carthage could use it.

And,not only them.When Sertorius rebelled against Rome and hold Spain,pirates proposed,that they took him and his retinue to Paradise islands.He refused and died,but offer were real.

And,remember that Carthaginians first killed anybody who tried sail to Atlantic,and later lied about western seas monsters and disasters which made sailing there impossible.

Greek and Romans belived them and never tried,but why carthaginians lies at all?
they must try to hide something west of Spain important for them - Carribean mostly.
An ancient mediterranian oared galley needed to be beached practically every evening so it could somewhat dry out because their hulls weren't waterproof and leaked like a seive.

A Pheonician attempting to cross the Atlantic in one of those was committing "Suicide by Yam".
 

ATP

Well-known member
An ancient mediterranian oared galley needed to be beached practically every evening so it could somewhat dry out because their hulls weren't waterproof and leaked like a seive.

A Pheonician attempting to cross the Atlantic in one of those was committing "Suicide by Yam".
They had other ships for that,with sails.Bigger have 800t,and probably could sail against wind.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
They had other ships for that,with sails.Bigger have 800t,and probably could sail against wind.
800 tons is well past what they could have built. Viking longships displaced about 20 tons, had one mast, one sail, and no rudder. They actually are seaworthy enough for an Atlantic voyage.
 

ATP

Well-known member
800 tons is well past what they could have built. Viking longships displaced about 20 tons, had one mast, one sail, and no rudder. They actually are seaworthy enough for an Atlantic voyage.
Romans built up to 2000t.But,they belived in Carthaginians lie about deadly western seas,and never try seek anything there.
And,sailing merchant schips of Carthage,like those who take tin from Cornwall,do not need to be beached every night.
And,if they could survive return trip to Cornwall,they could survive return trip to Carribean,too.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
Romans built up to 2000t.But,they belived in Carthaginians lie about deadly western seas,and never try seek anything there.
And,sailing merchant schips of Carthage,like those who take tin from Cornwall,do not need to be beached every night.
And,if they could survive return trip to Cornwall,they could survive return trip to Carribean,too.
Those were Roman ships. They weren't Pheonicean/Carthiganian. Roman engineering was basically "fuck you we can do this". If a Roman general needed to oh, I don't know, take a legion to a place which wasn't connected to where he was by a road there would be newly constructed road when his legion arrived and said "hello".
 

ATP

Well-known member
Those were Roman ships. They weren't Pheonicean/Carthiganian. Roman engineering was basically "fuck you we can do this". If a Roman general needed to oh, I don't know, take a legion to a place which wasn't connected to where he was by a road there would be newly constructed road when his legion arrived and said "hello".

I am taking about Carthaginians ships/and earlier phoenicians/ which used sails and haul tin from Cornwall.
They certainly no need to be beached each night.
And perfectly capable of surviving Columb road to Carribean.

Legends of Paradise islands was taken from phoenicians - as well as lies about western sea being impossible to cross.
 

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