Ramblings on Catholic Doctrine & History

[ATP]

The same old blind statements of assumption as facts, even when their wrong. Along with the idiotic suggestion that the Catholic church has become dominated by homosexuals. How many Popes have been gay then? Because its the higher ranks that permitted the continued hiding of the abuses because it would impact on the image of the clergy and hence its [fake] moral authority.

I noticed you also avoided my question. Do you consider yourself a god or fallible? If the 1st your in breach of your doctrine if the 2nd you need something more than blind assertion to 'prove' your claims.

Not MY DOCTRINE.GOD DOCTRINE.I am not God.

Lavenda mafia is fact - see book about that made by Dariusz Oko about that mafia.Saint Damiani wrtote book about sodomites in church 1000 year ago.

Which question i avoided ?
1.you claimed that science could proof that our dogma are wrong.I asked you how science could proof that Jesus is not God and part of Trinity,or Holy Mary was not taken to Heaven,becouse that are our dogma.You failed to answer that.

2.You claimed about bad christain genociders - but i proved that first genocide was Vandea,and was made by ENLINGHTENED.
So,show one case when entire nation was destined to die by christian rulers.

3.You claimed that christian attacked jews - when in reality they were tax-collecors or money -lending and killed by mobs becouse of that.
Just like Indonesians was regullary massacring chineese who are money-lenders there.Aru you trying to say,mthat bad catholics made muslim indonesians kill chineese,which are partially christian ?

Tell me,when and where people start thinking about themselves as persons and belived that all people are persons ? In Christian Europe.
You are attacking Chistianity? good,you would live in civilizations which do not consider all people as free,like muslim or hindu.
Christianity heritage which you are attacking is only thing which stop state or other people from treating you like pagans once did.

 

[LordSunhawk]

Stick to your ignorance then. Closed minds like yours are incapable of learning anything because you dare not consider yourself capable of error. Hence the insults and lies while you avoid responding to any points. Goodbye.

Since you are the one who is so spectacularly wrong about Christian (and Jewish) belief and doctrine as to be almost comical? The only ignorance in this discussion is on your end, and the only closed mind belongs to you. When the most basic precept of your argument is so wildly at variance with reality as yours is, it becomes an exercise in frustration for those who actually take the time to know what the hell they are talking about to argue with you.

 

[stevep]

Not MY DOCTRINE.GOD DOCTRINE.I am not God.

The problem is that your so confident that you are absolutely right about everything simply because you say so. That's the point I'm making. Your refusing to accept that you are capable of error.

Lavenda mafia is fact - see book about that made by Dariusz Oko about that mafia.Saint Damiani wrtote book about sodomites in church 1000 year ago.

No doubt there are homosexuals in the Catholic [and other] churches. Its sheer size makes that certain no matter how ruthlessly it tries to repress them it will get some that for some reasons respond to other parts of its teaching. However there a world of difference between that and the idea that the plague of pedophilia is in some way supported by such individuals, especially since the cover up on such scum goes up to at least cardinal level. So which cardinals and popes are you saying were both secret gays and for some reason organised a massive cover up of pedophilia?

Which question i avoided ?
1.you claimed that science could proof that our dogma are wrong.I asked you how science could proof that Jesus is not God and part of Trinity,or Holy Mary was not taken to Heaven,becouse that are our dogma.You failed to answer that.

Then either I explained it poorly or you misunderstood [or a bit of both]. My argument was that Christians of all groups have opposed ideas that challenged accepted doctrine, such as the primary of humanity and the special role of Earth. Or in numerous cases questions of basic human rights challenged by churches - as well as other religious organisations. That the knowledge of the sheer size and complexity of the universe raises questions about the validity of Abrahmic believes is a related point as well.

2.You claimed about bad christain genociders - but i proved that first genocide was Vandea,and was made by ENLINGHTENED.
So,show one case when entire nation was destined to die by christian rulers.

I repeat you stating something doesn't make it true, which goes back to my 1st point above. There were many massacres, frequently backed by assorted religious groups. I mentioned the Cathars for instance which was a formal crusade by the Catholic church. Could also mention the Hussites. Many non-Christian groups were attacked and abused because they were not Christian and other because some powerful figure in the church decided for whatever reason they weren't 'true' Catholics. I also repeat I'm referring to the Abrahamic faiths as a whole, its just you and others focusing on Catholicism although that has long been the largest and most powerful religious institution in Christianity. I could also mention the Knights Templar who were suppressed with church support.

3.You claimed that christian attacked jews - when in reality they were tax-collecors or money -lending and killed by mobs becouse of that.
Just like Indonesians was regullary massacring chineese who are money-lenders there.Aru you trying to say,mthat bad catholics made muslim indonesians kill chineese,which are partially christian ?

Again stating something doesn't make it true. There is plenty of evidence of Christian [institutions, obviously not related to Jesus] hostility to and abuse of Jews - and occasionally when they had the power of Jews to Christians.

I'm not aware of any cases of Jews being used as tax collectors in Christian Europe so where and when please? I know they were often forced into money lending, with the support of the church as in the early and medieval period it opposed money lending as non-Christian - possibly a twisting of Jesus's reaction to the money lenders in the temple? Mobs did much of the abuse and killing but they were often supported if not openly egged on by religious and secular leaders.

The comparison with Indonesia is relevant in that the Chinese were a minority who seemed to be privileged [and in the Chinese case often were] in terms of wealth and hence were used as a scapegoat by elements in authority when they wanted to distract the populous from other issues. Mind you of course the last great massacre of Chinese in the region, in the 1960's was because they were associated with communism.

That you misread what I say again is clear here. I'm talking about how instititions, especially with a autocratic/totalitarian core, often turn in evil directions. Just because your fixating on one such, the Catholic church doesn't mean that I am.

Tell me,when and where people start thinking about themselves as persons and belived that all people are persons ? In Christian Europe.
You are attacking Chistianity? good,you would live in civilizations which do not consider all people as free,like muslim or hindu.
Christianity heritage which you are attacking is only thing which stop state or other people from treating you like pagans once did.

Actually ideas of individual rights started long before that. Many of the tribal groups around the world had strong elements of such and of checks on powers of rulers. Similarly in early Greece [in some cases] and Rome there was a lot of emphasis on rights as well as responsibilities. This faded over time simply because large states especially tend to decay into concentrations of power and the Roman empire was extremely autocratic even before Christianity pushed it even further in that direction.

The revival of such ideas in Europe only bore fruit once the power of the religious institutions, both Catholic and Protestant, were largely broken after the bitter wars of religion made most people decide that they could no longer tolerate such control over their lives. Religion was still significant, and is in many aspects but it became more personal than institutional and they increasingly were unable to dictate the personal lives of others. I have pointed out that this largely happened in Protestant states and hence they became the more successful and vibrant but you keep ignoring that because it breaches your belief system. Individual rights were far slower to develop in many Catholic countries.

The point you keep missing is that I'm not attacking 'Christianity' as you put it but the autocratic institutions that resulted form it and its fellow faiths. As such saying that I'm not attacking religious or other bigotry and intolerance is manifestly inaccurate.

Please actually read what I say and don't jump to conclusions.

 

[ATP]

The problem is that your so confident that you are absolutely right about everything simply because you say so. That's the point I'm making. Your refusing to accept that you are capable of error.



No doubt there are homosexuals in the Catholic [and other] churches. Its sheer size makes that certain no matter how ruthlessly it tries to repress them it will get some that for some reasons respond to other parts of its teaching. However there a world of difference between that and the idea that the plague of pedophilia is in some way supported by such individuals, especially since the cover up on such scum goes up to at least cardinal level. So which cardinals and popes are you saying were both secret gays and for some reason organised a massive cover up of pedophilia?



Then either I explained it poorly or you misunderstood [or a bit of both]. My argument was that Christians of all groups have opposed ideas that challenged accepted doctrine, such as the primary of humanity and the special role of Earth. Or in numerous cases questions of basic human rights challenged by churches - as well as other religious organisations. That the knowledge of the sheer size and complexity of the universe raises questions about the validity of Abrahmic believes is a related point as well.




I repeat you stating something doesn't make it true, which goes back to my 1st point above. There were many massacres, frequently backed by assorted religious groups. I mentioned the Cathars for instance which was a formal crusade by the Catholic church. Could also mention the Hussites. Many non-Christian groups were attacked and abused because they were not Christian and other because some powerful figure in the church decided for whatever reason they weren't 'true' Catholics. I also repeat I'm referring to the Abrahamic faiths as a whole, its just you and others focusing on Catholicism although that has long been the largest and most powerful religious institution in Christianity. I could also mention the Knights Templar who were suppressed with church support.



Again stating something doesn't make it true. There is plenty of evidence of Christian [institutions, obviously not related to Jesus] hostility to and abuse of Jews - and occasionally when they had the power of Jews to Christians.

I'm not aware of any cases of Jews being used as tax collectors in Christian Europe so where and when please? I know they were often forced into money lending, with the support of the church as in the early and medieval period it opposed money lending as non-Christian - possibly a twisting of Jesus's reaction to the money lenders in the temple? Mobs did much of the abuse and killing but they were often supported if not openly egged on by religious and secular leaders.

The comparison with Indonesia is relevant in that the Chinese were a minority who seemed to be privileged [and in the Chinese case often were] in terms of wealth and hence were used as a scapegoat by elements in authority when they wanted to distract the populous from other issues. Mind you of course the last great massacre of Chinese in the region, in the 1960's was because they were associated with communism.

That you misread what I say again is clear here. I'm talking about how instititions, especially with a autocratic/totalitarian core, often turn in evil directions. Just because your fixating on one such, the Catholic church doesn't mean that I am.




Actually ideas of individual rights started long before that. Many of the tribal groups around the world had strong elements of such and of checks on powers of rulers. Similarly in early Greece [in some cases] and Rome there was a lot of emphasis on rights as well as responsibilities. This faded over time simply because large states especially tend to decay into concentrations of power and the Roman empire was extremely autocratic even before Christianity pushed it even further in that direction.

The revival of such ideas in Europe only bore fruit once the power of the religious institutions, both Catholic and Protestant, were largely broken after the bitter wars of religion made most people decide that they could no longer tolerate such control over their lives. Religion was still significant, and is in many aspects but it became more personal than institutional and they increasingly were unable to dictate the personal lives of others. I have pointed out that this largely happened in Protestant states and hence they became the more successful and vibrant but you keep ignoring that because it breaches your belief system. Individual rights were far slower to develop in many Catholic countries.

The point you keep missing is that I'm not attacking 'Christianity' as you put it but the autocratic institutions that resulted form it and its fellow faiths. As such saying that I'm not attacking religious or other bigotry and intolerance is manifestly inaccurate.

Please actually read what I say and don't jump to conclusions.

1.I am capable of many errors.But ,logically,catholic doctrine could not be my,only God - if Jesus existed and made his church.If not,it is false,but still not my doctrine.Becouse i do not contributed anything to that.

2.Read lavenda mafia by Dariusz Okoń /he lately was sentenced by german court becous he wrote about it/ - funny thing,german court sentencing polish citizen for writing truth.1939 again/or saint Peter Damiani /Liber Gommorihanus,1051/
Or how american church was taken by pederasts - "Goodbye! Good Men" by Michael Rose.Which explain more then 80% of victims there was boys.And why leftist let it go - they would must send to prison their fellow pederasts.

3.In Poland jews first come as slavers,but become tax collectors after 1138,when our state disintegrate.And when mobs during first Crusade attacked jews,bishops defended them.

4.Of course that institution turn in evil directions.But as long as it was christian institution,they were heaven on Earth compared to what ENLINGHTENED did during their revolutions.
Becouse people are weak and tend to be evil,but as long as there is christian bacground they are mitigated.Compare Franco secret police and Polpot.

5.In tribes you were part of tribe,not person.Greeks considered fully humans only other free Greeks.Slaves were talking tools for them.The same goes for romans - only for them only romans were fully humans.
No-romans were barbarians - not fully humans.
Then catholic church come - and with it Greek definition of Truth,Roman Law,and treating everybody including slaves and barbarians as persons which are equally loved by Jesus.

WHAT MOST IMPORTANT - everybody is responsible for his salvation thanks to his/her deeds.And,when you are responsible for your salvation,you are responsible for everybody else,too.Which made you person - becouse YOU,not your tribe,state,caste or whatever must decide what you must to do.

If catholic states failed,you would be right.Problem is - by the time industrial revolution kicked,catholics states was arleady ruled by masons.Thus why they destroyed jesuits.
Spain of Phillippe 2 had catholic priest scholars who advocated Salamanca school which was almost exactly austrian school of economy,and ruling kings who listen to secular advisors and belived then more gold/silver from Americas would be enough.That is why they lost.

Another thing - once your beloved secular ENLINGTENED started,we get revolutions nad genocides.And dudes like Stalin which averagelly killed more people during 3 days in one state then 2 catholic Inquisitions on 2 continents.

P.S "religious and other bigotry" - BWAHAHAHA.
You wrote like soviet from Stalin times.

 

[stevep]

1.I am capable of many errors.But ,logically,catholic doctrine could not be my,only God - if Jesus existed and made his church.If not,it is false,but still not my doctrine.Becouse i do not contributed anything to that.

Then will do you insist that we take your word as absolute truth despite evidence to the otherwise?

You do have two qualifiers there as well, a) if god exists and b) if the Catholic or any other church actually closely follows Jesus's teaching.

2.Read lavenda mafia by Dariusz Okoń /he lately was sentenced by german court becous he wrote about it/ - funny thing,german court sentencing polish citizen for writing truth.1939 again/or saint Peter Damiani /Liber Gommorihanus,1051/
Or how american church was taken by pederasts - "Goodbye! Good Men" by Michael Rose.Which explain more then 80% of victims there was boys.And why leftist let it go - they would must send to prison their fellow pederasts.

Can see some brief mentions of the book but very little on the author himself. Interesting its a reversal of the stance the church took for decades in denying, at all levels, that abuse was happening.

There's a logical reason why most pedophiles in the church target boys, simply because they have much more access to them, especially in earlier decades when the church had more control of education of the young.

3.In Poland jews first come as slavers,but become tax collectors after 1138,when our state disintegrate.And when mobs during first Crusade attacked jews,bishops defended them.

Unless your talking of possible Khazer actions I know of no such actions of slaving operations by Jews in that region. Plus given their normal territorial areas were far to the east did they ever reach Poland? Given that that was a common action by all states and groups in this time against everybody else to be brunt its nothing special.

Again asking for details about when Jews were used as tax collectors and by who.

4.Of course that institution turn in evil directions.But as long as it was christian institution,they were heaven on Earth compared to what ENLINGHTENED did during their revolutions.
Becouse people are weak and tend to be evil,but as long as there is christian bacground they are mitigated.Compare Franco secret police and Polpot.

Again your relying on your bigotry here. Christianity, if it reflects the relative humility of Christ's teaching can be a moderating factor but if more based on large and corrupt institutions it can aggravate it due to the extreme nature of such bodies. Fundamentalist of any alignment are always dangerous whether it is overtly religious or 'ideas' like communism or fascism.

5.In tribes you were part of tribe,not person.Greeks considered fully humans only other free Greeks.Slaves were talking tools for them.The same goes for romans - only for them only romans were fully humans.
No-romans were barbarians - not fully humans.
Then catholic church come - and with it Greek definition of Truth,Roman Law,and treating everybody including slaves and barbarians as persons which are equally loved by Jesus.

You had responsibilities but you were also a person. I take your point that outsiders were often exempt but then that's also clear in the Abrahmic religions. Your only including if your an accepted member of that church so in that aspect its no more universal than any other group.

WHAT MOST IMPORTANT - everybody is responsible for his salvation thanks to his/her deeds.And,when you are responsible for your salvation,you are responsible for everybody else,too.Which made you person - becouse YOU,not your tribe,state,caste or whatever must decide what you must to do.

Isn't that verging on the Pelagianism stance?

If catholic states failed,you would be right.Problem is - by the time industrial revolution kicked,catholics states was arleady ruled by masons.Thus why they destroyed jesuits.
Spain of Phillippe 2 had catholic priest scholars who advocated Salamanca school which was almost exactly austrian school of economy,and ruling kings who listen to secular advisors and belived then more gold/silver from Americas would be enough.That is why they lost.

Again evidence please? As opposed to the idea that the group had become too powerful and other elements in the churches became jealous of it. [As earlier with the Templar's for instance?] It is to be noted that during the period when the Catholic establishment was turning against the Jesuits that one place they found refuge was actually Prussia, a state your previously condemned.

Spain became over-dependent on gold and silver from the Americas. That is accurate. This was partly because Philip II [among others] became too reckless with his expenditure and wars and partly because he wasn't able/willing to spread the burden beyond Castille. Unclear from your comment whether

Another thing - once your beloved secular ENLINGTENED started,we get revolutions nad genocides.And dudes like Stalin which averagelly killed more people during 3 days in one state then 2 catholic Inquisitions on 2 continents.

You fail to understand what the enlightment was. Because it opposes unrestrained power and blind faith - and hence churches unimpeded authority - you seek to blame it for everything you see as evil. By definition its totally alien to the sort of mass murdering states you mention.

P.S "religious and other bigotry" - BWAHAHAHA.
You wrote like soviet from Stalin times.

Ironic since one of us is a believe in absolute power and unquestioned use of that power and it isn't me.

PS Forgot to say that you do realise the sexual abuse has been going on for several generations at least. We have had reports of children at homes being abused by clergy in the pre-WWII years. Which makes the comment relating to Rose's book about the view changing from hard but fair characters as portrayed by Spencer Tracy and Bing Crosby ironic as it was occurring when those films were being made.

 

[ATP]

Then will do you insist that we take your word as absolute truth despite evidence to the otherwise?

You do have two qualifiers there as well, a) if god exists and b) if the Catholic or any other church actually closely follows Jesus's teaching.



Can see some brief mentions of the book but very little on the author himself. Interesting its a reversal of the stance the church took for decades in denying, at all levels, that abuse was happening.

There's a logical reason why most pedophiles in the church target boys, simply because they have much more access to them, especially in earlier decades when the church had more control of education of the young.



Unless your talking of possible Khazer actions I know of no such actions of slaving operations by Jews in that region. Plus given their normal territorial areas were far to the east did they ever reach Poland? Given that that was a common action by all states and groups in this time against everybody else to be brunt its nothing special.

Again asking for details about when Jews were used as tax collectors and by who.



Again your relying on your bigotry here. Christianity, if it reflects the relative humility of Christ's teaching can be a moderating factor but if more based on large and corrupt institutions it can aggravate it due to the extreme nature of such bodies. Fundamentalist of any alignment are always dangerous whether it is overtly religious or 'ideas' like communism or fascism.





You had responsibilities but you were also a person. I take your point that outsiders were often exempt but then that's also clear in the Abrahmic religions. Your only including if your an accepted member of that church so in that aspect its no more universal than any other group.



Isn't that verging on the Pelagianism stance?



Again evidence please? As opposed to the idea that the group had become too powerful and other elements in the churches became jealous of it. [As earlier with the Templar's for instance?] It is to be noted that during the period when the Catholic establishment was turning against the Jesuits that one place they found refuge was actually Prussia, a state your previously condemned.

Spain became over-dependent on gold and silver from the Americas. That is accurate. This was partly because Philip II [among others] became too reckless with his expenditure and wars and partly because he wasn't able/willing to spread the burden beyond Castille. Unclear from your comment whether



You fail to understand what the enlightment was. Because it opposes unrestrained power and blind faith - and hence churches unimpeded authority - you seek to blame it for everything you see as evil. By definition its totally alien to the sort of mass murdering states you mention.




Ironic since one of us is a believe in absolute power and unquestioned use of that power and it isn't me.

1.Not my world.Catholic Dogma,which are God made.Of course,only if Jesus existed and created church.Otherwise,we all are just meat/atheists/ , figments of Brahman/Hindu/,slaves of Allah/muslim/ or you could pick another false faith.

2.Church did nothing,becouse part of hiearchy belonged to lavenda mafia.Nothing new,Saint Damian book from 1051 show that.

3.First polish rulers,till at least 966 were slavers who take part of their income from slave trading.Only reason why we have in 966 AD standing army was becouse of that.And becouse main buyers were in muslim world,jewish merchant like Ibrahim ibn Jakub come here to buy for them.
Jewish tax collectors - every polish prince from 1138 till 1320 used them.

4.Bigotry? soviet language again.And if you compare Inquisition where 3% of prisoners were tortured to enlinghtened republics,when it was basically norm,you would see difference.

5.Nope.You belong to tribe,you are human.Outside of it - you are not.That is why in tribal society worst punisment is not death,but being rejected from tribe.
And only christians have the same standarts for all.Jews and muslims could kill/steal from others and it would be good deed.
Christians - not so,murdering pagan is the same sin as murdering christian.In theory.
Practice could be as bad - but still muslims and jews could prosecute other with clear conscience,when christian are quilty of breaking rules.

Jews even do not pray unless there is at least 10 of them.

6.Nope,pelagians belived that they could save their sould on their own.Which,of course,is impossible.
For us,catholics,without help from Church we could not be saved - but we still have free will and decide if we get that help .
And those who refuse are going to hell on their own free Will.



7.Phillip 2 had Salamanca school who explained him how economy work,but he decided to not listen.And Spain paid for that.

Unless muslims and some of protestants,who belive then we are saved or not by Allah/God will from the beginning.
Templars was deatroyed becouse France wonted so,and they have their own pet pope at that time.

Jesuits - becouse masons controlling Spain,Portugal and France wonted it.Jesuits survived in Russia,becouse masons have no power there.And was useful.And tsarica could show other kings fuck.

8.Of course i undarstandt.For us Christians Jesus is God and knew what is right,so we never tried to create utopia,only discover what in particular cases Jesus Will is.
ENLINGHTENED - sick fucks belive that they are gods,so they could decide what is Right.This one utopia after another and massgraves.And when they win,they start killing each others,becouse everyone is god.

9.Absolute power - OF COURSE JESUS HAS IT.That is why HE is God.Not us,not any ENLINGHTENED cabal which take over states and try one utopia after another.
And Catholic Church have to right to Absolute power,only Dogma keeping which would save your soul.You could hear or not,and be saved or not on your own Will.

 

[Buba]

Can we take the religious debate to some other, more appropriate thread?
With transfer of such posts there?
As fascinating as the theology&beliefs posts are, this thread was launched for a different topic.

 

[ATP]

Can we take the religious debate to some other, more appropriate thread?
With transfer of such posts there?
As fascinating as the theology&beliefs posts are, this thread was launched for a different topic.

Hmmm...i would not talk about it unless somebody ask.
Back to topic - Poland in 1920 do not made peace with soviets,but made alliance with Wrangel and attacked with romanians /they promised to join/ and french material support.What next ?

 

[ATP]

Stick to your ignorance then. Closed minds like yours are incapable of learning anything because you dare not consider yourself capable of error. Hence the insults and lies while you avoid responding to any points. Goodbye.

"Arguments" like from soviet or jacobin.Or rather not arguments,but curses.ou are not first or last.
Like Lenin said - why disscuss with Kautsky,when i could call him regenate and traitor" ?
You are good Lenin pupil.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

<snip>

Back when I was an undergraduate at Caltech, I happened to have researched this very issue for an essay in one of my classes. I don't have a copy of that paper to hand -- it's in a box in the back of my parents' garage -- but suffice it to say that I came to exactly the same factual conclusions that Sunhawk lays out here, just in more academic language. And that was at a point in my life where I was still pretty strongly fundie-evangelical, thus stridently anti-Catholic.

 

[Doomsought]

I think just as important as the Truth of Galileo is talking about the truth of the Renaissance. The Renaissance is claimed to be a revival of the arts and sciences, that is a lie. It was a revival of the arts, and an abandonment of the sciences.

The Renaisance was a romanticist movement, abandoning and defying the rationalist philosophies of Christian scholars at the time. They did this by romanticizing ancient Greek thoughts on natural philosophy over the empirical thoughts that preceded them.

 

[Morphic Tide]

The Renaisance was a romanticist movement, abandoning and defying the rationalist philosophies of Christian scholars at the time. They did this by romanticizing ancient Greek thoughts on natural philosophy over the empirical thoughts that preceded them.

...No, the Church had gotten ridden with way the hell less empirical thinking than the Ancient Greek philosophers were engaging in, and the re-introduction from the Arab world was paired with advancements of those principals in excess of anything that occurred under the Church. Al Jabr was a rather revolutionary thing in mathematics without compare in Europe until later.

Also, to call the Renaissance any kind of movement as a whole is farcical. It was nothing more nor less than the rejection of hegemony of thought. Some groups took this to romanticism, some took it to empiricism, some to more abstract rationalism, some to religious revival, some to archaic political theory, it was all over the goddamn place.

What came out the other end was Empiricism becoming ascendant, the advent of Science as we know it today. The Romanticists and the Church lost that, because there was not merely one New during the Enlightenment, it was a time of many News competing for who would become the hegemon, as the Old that is the Church had lost by this contest beginning.

We're seeing the exact same kind of decay in academics today. The hegemon has become ever more specific and insistent on stasis, with its slow drift ignored for the sake of enforcing itself, while awkward outliers have festered into reducto ad absurdum disproof of certain elements as they've come to be.

 

[ShieldWife]

Woah, Charles I, a moronic asshole? No way.

Charles I losing to Cromwell was a catastrophe for Western civilization and precipitated many of the problems that plague the Anglosphere and the West even today.

 

[ATP]

Woah, Charles I, a moronic asshole? No way.

Charles I losing to Cromwell was a catastrophe for Western civilization and precipitated many of the problems that plague the Anglosphere and the West even today.

Indeed.Cromwell really tried create old testament utopia and turn England into New Israel,which why everybody welcomed King after Cromwell death.
And those who rebelled against Stuarts turned monarchy into rule of banksters from City London.Nothing changed till our time,except ruling banksters are from Wall Street.