What If? Rome conquered Europe

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
Basically, before Jesus Christ was born, Rome somehow managed to conquer the entirety of Europe with a combination of arms, strangely advanced technologies and diplomacy

How long would Roman Civilization last when they're busy trying to "civilize" all the "Barbarians" in Europe? And have technology like radio's, cannons, flintlocks etc
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
How long would Roman Civilization last when they're busy trying to "civilize" all the "Barbarians" in Europe? And have technology like radio's, cannons, flintlocks etc
The technological loss do to the Fall of the Roman Empire is a myth created by Romanticists during the Renaissance throwing shade on Empiricists. Philosophers were busy working on the ontology and epistemology that would set the foundations for positivism (the scientific method), as well as making greater connections between mathematics and natural law.

The main loss do to the fall of Rome was that of Infrastructure and the budget for creating more of it.
 

AspblastUSA

Well-known member
While there was far less of a backslide than is commonly believed you could well make the argument that the rate of new discoveries slowed dramatically. Not with the fall, however; the entire late Roman period was one of the sort of instability that discourages research. Whatever change is made it would probably have to at least lesson the crisis of the 3rd century if not butterfly it completely.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
While there was far less of a backslide than is commonly believed you could well make the argument that the rate of new discoveries slowed dramatically. Not with the fall, however; the entire late Roman period was one of the sort of instability that discourages research. Whatever change is made it would probably have to at least lesson the crisis of the 3rd century if not butterfly it completely.

Say, would Rome conquering the entirety of Europe eventually force changes on every culture?

If presumably Rome still gets a Christian Emperor, I think Rome’s whole not being super focused on religion and its peoples having many many many different religions/pantheons would end up under eventual siege by the Church
 

AspblastUSA

Well-known member
Say, would Rome conquering the entirety of Europe eventually force changes on every culture?

If presumably Rome still gets a Christian Emperor, I think Rome’s whole not being super focused on religion and its peoples having many many many different religions/pantheons would end up under eventual siege by the Church

Whether or not the Romans force changes on every European culture if they were strong and stable enough to actually conquer Europe changes would happen. The whole of continental western Europe is roman influenced for a reason; people on the periphery wanted to integrate to the culture that would give them greater opportunities.

As for religion, that's something of a misconception. The Roman people were always acutely aware of religious matters, but the polytheistic mediterranian interpretation of religion did not require that you worship one god or one set of gods exclusively. The classical romans actually considered religion to be a sort of foreign affairs and the "official" religions of the roman people were ones for whom a treaty existed between the god (in the form of their priesthood) and the Senate.

The christianization of the Empire would likely happen at some point because it was an exceptionally popular mystery cult before it became mainstream; though without the instability causing people to look for more answers than traditional faiths were willing to provide it may well take longer to catch on.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
The christianization of the Empire would likely happen at some point because it was an exceptionally popular mystery cult before it became mainstream; though without the instability causing people to look for more answers than traditional faiths were willing to provide it may well take longer to catch on.

Aside from going mainstream, how to stop it from being a “mystery” where people think they do orgies?

I think there was once an issue in that Christianity’s being openly anti-abortion helped make it be popular
 
D

Deleted member 88

Guest
Europe to where? The Urals?

Scandinavia?

I can see a super wanked out roman empire controlling Ireland and Scotland, and maybe as far east as the Dnieper. Maybe. Alongside Jutland. The steppes of Russia and the far north are worthless except for painting the map red.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Europe to where? The Urals?

Scandinavia?

I can see a super wanked out roman empire controlling Ireland and Scotland, and maybe as far east as the Dnieper. Maybe. Alongside Jutland. The steppes of Russia and the far north are worthless except for painting the map red.


I've considered this before and Rome would actually have a shorter and therefore easier to defend border if it relied on a combination of the Carpathians and the Vistula or the Oder.
 

AspblastUSA

Well-known member
I've considered this before and Rome would actually have a shorter and therefore easier to defend border if it relied on a combination of the Carpathians and the Vistula or the Oder.

The issue is that while the Carpathians-Vistula border is geographically shorter it is logistically longer. The Rhine was such a stable border for so long because you can take river barges along the Rhone almost all the way to the Rhine, dramatically shortening travel time between the Mediterranean and the frontier. The Danube was likewise not far from the urban centers of the empire or the coast. While a shorter border overall is preferable, without significant infrastructure that did not at the time exist in Germany and the Carpathian basin it would actually be harder to maintain. That was (aside from the whole Teutoberg incident) one of the big reasons Augustus declared the Rhine-Danube system as the natural border of the Empire.

I'm not saying that such a border doesn't exist, but it takes more in-depth thought than drawing the shortest line using natural boundaries.
 
D

Deleted member 88

Guest
The further east you went-into modern Poland, the Baltic states, and modern Russia/Ukraine it was even less developed and populated. I could see a gradual expansion on the North European plain and securing the border areas as @Tyanna of Pentos brought up.

I could see an expansion based on military colonies, which become the basis for more settlement and thus conquest. Repeating itself for centuries.

For example, the Vistula-Carpatho-Siret line is 705 miles shorter than the Rhine-Danube Line.

Forgive me if I get my geography wrong, but wouldn't that tie the borders of the Carpathian mounts and the modern day Czech Republic?

Basically meaning an easier frontier to manage?
 

AspblastUSA

Well-known member
Pulling up a map, the problem when you really get down to it is Germany. The Dniester- or even Dnieper-Vistula route would connect the frontier to the Black Sea, not far from the rich provinces of Greece and the Roman East. The problem with this strategic positioning is that there are no easy intermediate borders between the Rhine and Vistula that connect to the Mediterranian-Black Sea system; a geographic problem that practically requires that Germany be absorbed in as closed to one "bite" as possible else the border becomes significantly harder to supply.

I'm not sure how precisely one might swing this but a PoD for that might be Hermann the German, also known as Arminius; the romanized germanic chief who lead the army at the aforementioned Teutoberg incident. If events shaped him differently and he decided that adopting a pro-roman stance would be better it could lead to a friendly client kingdom on the far side of the Rhine that over time (and if the Romans got exceptionally lucky, something that was basically already assumed by a Mega-Rome) lead to a relatively peaceful incorporation of the territory.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
The further east you went-into modern Poland, the Baltic states, and modern Russia/Ukraine it was even less developed and populated. I could see a gradual expansion on the North European plain and securing the border areas as @Tyanna of Pentos brought up.

I could see an expansion based on military colonies, which become the basis for more settlement and thus conquest. Repeating itself for centuries.



Forgive me if I get my geography wrong, but wouldn't that tie the borders of the Carpathian mounts and the modern day Czech Republic?

Basically meaning an easier frontier to manage?

Arguably a bit harder since there isn't a river right along the Carpathians, but honestly the Danube and major tributaries navigable for Roman galleys are never far away... @AspblastUSA may have a better point there. But the Oder line would be on Bohemia, yes; the Vistula runs north from Slovakia through central Poland.
 
D

Deleted member 88

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The issue would be holding out against both the Huns and the movement of Germanic peoples westward.

Thing is, the empire would need to hold these barriers in the face of internal strife and civil war. Alongside plagues and other issues which weakened the empire after trajan's death.
 

AspblastUSA

Well-known member
Civil wars are the real pisser. Plagues are bad but as an act of nature they can't really be prevented, and can also put a damper on migration for the duration (few will want to move into an area currently being ravaged by plagues after all). Civil wars are the real unforced error going on, and one the romans were particularly bad about.

I don't know what it was about them, but one of the fundamental constants of Roman history from the late republic period onward was that there was no crisis so bad that nobody wanted to try to use it to make a play for power. The sort of patriotic fervor that made them shit endless Legions at Hannibal faded sometime after the second punic war and was never really recaptured. You may well have to go that far back to make structural changes to improve the longevity of Roman power.
 
D

Deleted member 88

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Problem is, there is no enemy that can do that. Parthia and later the Sassanids at best threaten the eastern provinces, but at worst will simply seek to reclaim Achaemenid holdings, which would be very bad for Rome but not the empire all together.

The Garamantes and Nubians/Kushites weren't that much of a threat, at best any African polities could have raided and caused trouble for Egypt and Mauretania.

And the Kushans, Chinese and Indians were of course, never going to threaten Rome unless they had united under some eastern mega empire baring down on them from Arabia to Crimea. In which case, the Romans would likely lose. But no Eastern empire would have formed that could have marched westward and sustained itself. The logistics and administration would mean no east Asian or South Asian polity could threaten the west. I mean I guess you could have a Biblical "Kings of the East" where somehow all of Asia unites and marches westward-but barring ROB(or well divine) intervention, this isn't really possible.

So the empire goes through long stretches of time, fighting only Barbarians, putting down subject revolts or troublesome client monarchs, and of course fighting the Persians. But even then, that's a lot of legions not doing much. Hence civil wars.

Their just wasn't an existential thread to engender unity and prevent power struggles.
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
The amount of species that go extinct due to the Romans get even worst. Now not just the European Lion and the Cave Lion. But other large carnivores and herbivores in Northern Europe.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
The fact Germany was to underdeveloped to conquer is valid but if you want an Empire to rule Europe as opposed to just half of it... Well Germany at the very least would be a requirement. So I can see valid points from both sides.

Obvious the Rhine and Danube make more sense as they did historically but if the Alien Space Bats want Rome to rule Europe, Germany somehow getting swallowed up in the early 2st Century would make the most sense. You can't really 'incrementally' conquer Germany without going over the same conquests and repeating them again and again.

So a great campaign would be needed and if and when successful would allow a couple centuries of infrastructure investment and allow that newer and shorter border that Tyanna proposes.
 

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