Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Agent23]

Well, you can see for yourself, Poland went to change the ruler of Rus, it did not try to snatch lands from it, except for the important Czerwienskie castles. The country from which we wanted to snatch lands was Germany, and those lands we wanted to take were Polabia, which is today's East Germany.

Where is yours here, Poland tried to conquer Kievan Rus?

Trying to put in a vassal/somebody who owes you in as the ruler of another country is even worse than trying to snatch some lands tbh.

Poland was in no way interested in conquering it. If she was interested, she would have just done it, because it was easier than wars with the Empire.

Poland going east was not until the fourteenth century, Kazimierz III the Great. And even then, the conquest of Red Ruthenia was supposed to be part of an attempt to retake Silesia by taking over an important trade route going through those lands.

Besides, look at the borders of Bolesław I's conquests, somehow they all headed west, not east. And Boleslaw a kind and courteous man was not. He wanted to conquer and plunder.

As I said, making some country subservient to you via vassalage can be worse than just taking territory.

As for the second, let's ask a different question. What does Russia have to gain by invading Ukraine? If Russia had been more patient it would have gotten what it wanted, NATO was dying. The EU was falling apart, if it had waited another 5 years it could have seized Ukraine without the world against it. And so Putin achieved what is a Russian nightmare.

A brilliant strategist.

let us see, they get the rebellious territories that want to be part of Russia and that have been historically Russian before Stalin and Lenin and Khrushchev decided to fuck with the maps as well as protecting a major naval base they had in the Crimea and that is important to their interests, they also counter the coup-spawned US/western proxy and keep dual use ABM sites from being placed on their doorstep.

As to Putin being a brilliant strategist, well his hand was kinda forced, since the Russians wouldn't have been happy with the loss of Crimea and ethnic cleansing in Donbass.

Him not going in back in 2014 is something the right/actual dissidents over there have been raging for quite a while now.


Check out some Telegram channels that are critical of their government, like Strelkov's.


What ran Russia until recently was an alliance of Siloviki and Liberals, with a lot of them wanting to eat their Fua Gras and keep their resort homes all over Club Med.

 

[Typhonis]

Do you mean this:

1951 Polish–Soviet territorial exchange - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think so, I'm not 100% sure.

 

[Batrix2070]

Trying to put in a vassal/somebody who owes you in as the ruler of another country is even worse than trying to snatch some lands tbh.
As I said, making some country subservient to you via vassalage can be worse than just taking territory.

Interestingly you call, supporting a side in a civil war, because that's what this intervention was. Because how would you like to see the Grand Duke of Kiev as a vassal of the Prince of Poland? After all, there was not even a hint of such a thing, no fief tribute was paid by Svyatopolk. And after he eventually fell, Boleslaw made a deal with his brother.

et us see, they get the rebellious territories that want to be part of Russia and that have been historically Russian

Aha, historically Russian lands. Well, cool, if that's the case, why do you have some kind of pain in the ass about the Polish "conquests" of Rus when these lands were also historically Polish and we can also call them as rebellious? Russians did not rule as the only ones in these lands.

before Stalin and Lenin and Khrushchev decided to fuck with the maps

Well, yes, because there is no other option. Only Lenin created Ukraine, not the Austrians at all as a counter to Polishness. And not at all in Galicia. Moscow is not Kiev, it is a separate part of the larger Rus, and not at all the most important.
Since Russians consider it part of Russia, Poles can also say that it is part of Poland. And certainly Galicia/Red Russia.

major naval base they had in the Crimea and that is important to their interest

Well, finally some sensible reason, not some miracles on a stick.

they also counter the coup-spawned US/western proxy

Who did not take advantage of the opportunity that presented itself, I do not know why the Russians have such a pain in the ass. After all, in the opposite situation it was they who did so all the time.... oh well. Kali good to steal someone's cow but bad to steal from him.

since the Russians wouldn't have been happy with the loss of Crimea and ethnic cleansing in Donbass.

The Poles were not happy about the loss of the Borderlands and ethnic cleansing in those areas either, but Poland can't complain and can't do anything about it, but Russia already does and has the right to change it.

Since we managed, the Russians will manage too, after all, they have enough of their Lebensraum, they don't need Ukraine to be happy, right?

 

[Marduk]

As to Putin being a brilliant strategist, well his hand was kinda forced, since the Russians wouldn't have been happy with the loss of Crimea and ethnic cleansing in Donbass.

No one cares about FSB's equivalents of Gleiwitz radio station. And Russians now have far better reasons to be unhappy than loss of Crimea, yet Putin somehow deals with that. With the control of media demonstrated during the war, that's definitely a convenient, self-created excuse, not a real reason to do anything. If the Russian agents and media apparatus didn't decide to arrange and inject these events and questionable stories around them into the Russian information sphere, obviously they wouldn't be there, and so no one could be unhappy about the lack of reaction to them.

Him not going in back in 2014 is something the right/actual dissidents over there have been raging for quite a while now.


Check out some Telegram channels that are critical of their government, like Strelkov's.

Strelkov is a "retired" FSB officer, as such he is a representative of a faction of the silovki, which is why he is allowed to remain free and alive despite being "critical" of the government - as in will never want the government to be changed to someone else, he is textbook internal opposition, who would prefer a different balance of existing factions in the government at most, of course favoring the faction he is a representative of, but no changes beyond that.

also counter the coup-spawned US/western proxy and keep dual use ABM sites from being placed on their doorstep.

LMAO...
Dual use?
By that logic, sure, whatever, as soon as they withdraw actual dual use S-300/400 (in orders of magnitude greater number btw) from NATO doorstep lol.

 

[ATP]

One, it is Turcic not Turk.
Two, there were more Slavs than Bulgars(which, fun fact, we are not sure if they were entirely Turcic or Indo-Iranian in origins with one putting the center of the Bulgarian homeland in Central Asia)in the 1st Bulgarian Empire also, we have Thracian roots, too.
Culturally we are pretty much Slavs, also, there is genetic research saying we are Slavs,asI have said before:

What are you nemec?

I would rether deal with the Turks than with Brussels, Paris, London, Washington or our stab in the back other neighbors.

Dude, no one wants to genocide you, Russia has plenty of leibensraum and there is nothing they want from Polish territory.

1.Turks would genocide you like armenians,unless you agree to be good muslim and lesser turk.
2.They find on YT what they were taking about Poland before war.Arleady then they wanted wipe us out,except traitors,of course.
Brussells would let us live as second class citizens.
And second class citizens could take their freedom again.
Denizens of mass graves could not do so.

P.S If kgbstan have enough Lebensraum,what are they doing on Ukraine?

 

[ShadowArxxy]

bolters are stupidly impractical.

they waste a bunch of energy on accelerating an acceleration mechanism (the rocket fuel and nozzles)

Well, the thing is gyrojet guns firing micro-rocket rounds were able to pack impressive punch into a compact, lightweight firearm, but they proved to have a serious achilles heel in being inherently inaccurate. The muzzle velocity achieved by the rocket propulsion during the in-barrel part of the burn wasn't sufficient to keep the round stable until it accelerated further. While fictional, a bolter does represent a plausible solution to this flaw, a hybrid design where the round is fired by conventional propellant cartridge and then accellerates further with a gyrojet rocket drive. Such a hybrid design was never adopted IRL because it basically gives up the advantages of the gyrojet in order to be a more bulkier and more complex variant of conventional firearm with few practical advantages.

However, it's an entirely plausible solution to one of the ugly tactical problems presented in 40K, that being that human infantry have to handle threats that are vastly tougher than any real-life infantry threat, and specifically have *both* armor protection *and* the innate durability exceeding that of dangerous game animals. This really does require an outside-the-box solution to the normal tradeoff between velocity and projectile size in a manageable shoulder-fired infantry weapon -- the round must be high velocity in order to achieve adequate penetration but also high caliber to have room for sufficient explosive payload. Thus, the bulky and expensive hybrid-gryojet weapon of considerable caliber, firing the smallest possible round of sufficient payload at the highest velocity allowed by recoil limitations, and then kicked up to even higher velocity by gyrojet thruster.

Note that the tradeoff is *still* true for Space Marines, because it's inherent to the physics of a hand-held, shoulder-fired weapon; it's just that with superhumans in power armor, you can peg the gauge on the tradeoff higher.

 

[Buba]

However, it's an entirely plausible solution to one of the ugly tactical problems presented in 40K

You mix up threads?

 

[ShadowArxxy]

You mix up threads?

Ehhh, it's a little off topic, but was responding to a post in this thread.

TL;DR: Bolters are semi-plausible in 40K, but there's not really a *reason* to make them IRL because the kind of targets that make them useful don't exist.

 

[AmosTrask]

P.S If kgbstan have enough Lebensraum,what are they doing on Ukraine?

It's Imperial Prestige and WW1 era and earlier thinking the Russians are stuck in. They still believe that territory = deterrent to invasion or damage. Never mind that we (NATO) can hit them in 30 minutes all the way from America and Canada.

 

[ATP]

It's Imperial Prestige and WW1 era and earlier thinking the Russians are stuck in. They still believe that territory = deterrent to invasion or damage. Never mind that we (NATO) can hit them in 30 minutes all the way from America and Canada.

And that is why Poland is not safe,too.Becouse,let be frank,Moscov would say that they feel danger from any state with which they have border.
Except those who really want part of their terrotory,like China.

Funny people,those kgb.

 

[Aldarion]

 

[The Whispering Monk]

so freekin' stupid.

 

[Husky_Khan]

So like if Russia legalized Gay Marriage tomorrow the US would end support of Ukraine?

 

[Zachowon]

And Russians rape each other in thier military to establish dominance

 

[Agent23]

No one cares about FSB's equivalents of Gleiwitz radio station. And Russians now have far better reasons to be unhappy than loss of Crimea, yet Putin somehow deals with that. With the control of media demonstrated during the war, that's definitely a convenient, self-created excuse, not a real reason to do anything. If the Russian agents and media apparatus didn't decide to arrange and inject these events and questionable stories around them into the Russian information sphere, obviously they wouldn't be there, and so no one could be unhappy about the lack of reaction to them.

Or maybe the guy retired because he did not like the way the other siloviki were doing things...
Also, it is not like an archivist is the most relevant and prestigious job there.

But, he is merely one of the more prominent examples, there are dozens like him pissed because they think Russia is too liberal, or pussyfoots around, or too heavily controlled by specific interests.

Is the US deep state/permanent bureaucracy entirely monolithic?

Not really, they are a conglomeration of people with similar backgrounds and interests and even worldviews, often with the same paymasters, but that does not mean they are the Borg collective.

Same is true for the Russian nomenclature.

Strelkov is a "retired" FSB officer, as such he is a representative of a faction of the silovki, which is why he is allowed to remain free and alive despite being "critical" of the government - as in will never want the government to be changed to someone else, he is textbook internal opposition, who would prefer a different balance of existing factions in the government at most, of course favoring the faction he is a representative of, but no changes beyond that.

Yeah, there is a sort of unspoken 'social contract' in Russia, that former KGB/SVR/FSB people of a certain rank are kinda-sorta untouchable, no matter how much butt hurt they generate.

By that logic, sure, whatever, as soon as they withdraw actual dual use S-300/400 (in orders of magnitude greater number btw) from NATO doorstep lol.

Apples and oranges.

 

[Aldarion]

so freekin' stupid.

So like if Russia legalized Gay Marriage tomorrow the US would end support of Ukraine?

Read entire post - he actually says that no, US would not end support of Ukraine:


However:

https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Interagency-Report-on-the-Implementation-of-the-Presidential-Memorandum-on-Advancing-the-Human-Rights-of-Lesbian-Gay-Bisexual-Transgender-Queer-and-Intersex-Persons-Around-the-World-2022.pdf

It is a fact that LGBTQWERTZ / pedophile / groomer agenda has, among the Western elites, taken position of traditional religions.

Russian leadership is evil, but that doesn't mean USA / Western leadership is not evil. We are seeing a repeat of World War II: two massive evils duking it out, and whoever wins, everybody suffers. And Ukraine (and rest of central Europe) are right in the middle of it.

 

[Marduk]

Or maybe the guy retired because he did not like the way the other siloviki were doing things...
Also, it is not like an archivist is the most relevant and prestigious job there.

Yeah, he retired, and proceeded to... participate in Russian covert ops in Ukraine in leadership roles a mere year later. This kind of stuff is the reason why i put he term "former" in quotes. And people better informed than us on such matters advise making this a habit in regard to any, and especially Russian intel agency officers.

But, he is merely one of the more prominent examples, there are dozens like him pissed because they think Russia is too liberal, or pussyfoots around, or too heavily controlled by specific interests.

Is the US deep state/permanent bureaucracy entirely monolithic?

Not really, they are a conglomeration of people with similar backgrounds and interests and even worldviews, often with the same paymasters, but that does not mean they are the Borg collective.

Same is true for the Russian nomenclature.

True...
So, either FSB went straight out rogue to force Putin into this mess, took him on a wild ride against his will, and he took no effective action to calm their cucumbers for 8 years...
Or he went along with it because either he was the one pushing this idea, or they were at least on the same page, and if anyone in Russian nomenclature disagreed, it was someone else.
I find the second scenario far more likely.

Yeah, there is a sort of unspoken 'social contract' in Russia, that former KGB/SVR/FSB people of a certain rank are kinda-sorta untouchable, no matter how much butt hurt they generate.

Yup.

Apples and oranges.

Absolutely not, it's one of the case of a problem invented for audience with no idea about the subjects that then diplomats would have to give concessions to merely make everyone forget about the fairy tale.
If NATO was in the business of similar way of doing politics, a mirror story about S-300/S-400 (latter of which also has some level of ABM capability) would be absolutely in order, and it would be only half as ridiculous as with US "dual use ABM".

 

[Agent23]

Yeah, he retired, and proceeded to... participate in Russian covert ops in Ukraine in leadership roles a mere year later. This kind of stuff is the reason why i put he term "former" in quotes. And people better informed than us on such matters advise making this a habit in regard to any, and especially Russian intel agency officers.

True...
So, either FSB went straight out rogue to force Putin into this mess, took him on a wild ride against his will, and he took no effective action to calm their cucumbers for 8 years...
Or he went along with it because they were on the same page, and if anyone in Russian nomenclature disagreed, it was someone else.
I find the second scenario far more likely.

Yeah, ok, sure, all Dem darned Russkies are a friggin hivemind after our precious bodily fluids,like pod people but addicted to Vodka.

If NATO was in the business of similar way of doing politics, a mirror story about S-300/S-400 would be absolutely in order, and it would be only half as ridiculous as with "dual use ABM".

Yeah, ok, something that can take out orbital targets and intercept ICBMs mid-flight can't be equipped with a small nuke for a decapitating strike, sure.

 

[Marduk]

Yeah, ok, sure, all Dem darned Russkies are a friggin hivemind after our precious bodily fluids,like pod people but addicted to Vodka.

Nice parody you have there, but take it to the meme thread or something.

Yeah, ok, something that can take out orbital targets and intercept ICBMs mid-flight can't be equipped with a small nuke for a decapitating strike, sure.

In theory...
But if that's where you want to draw the line, you have to apply it to everyone's high performance heavy SAMs, not just American ones.
In reality, it would be wasteful due to the sheer size and cost of supporting resources such systems have (big ass ultra expensive radars)...
While if one aims to do a nuclear sneak attacks with few dozens of missiles, there are sneakier and more effective ways that are much cheaper while at it. Stationary facility? And not in the middle of icy/sandy wasteland, but a well populated area? Really?

 

[Zachowon]

Read entire post - he actually says that no, US would not end support of Ukraine:


However:

https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Interagency-Report-on-the-Implementation-of-the-Presidential-Memorandum-on-Advancing-the-Human-Rights-of-Lesbian-Gay-Bisexual-Transgender-Queer-and-Intersex-Persons-Around-the-World-2022.pdf

It is a fact that LGBTQWERTZ / pedophile / groomer agenda has, among the Western elites, taken position of traditional religions.

Russian leadership is evil, but that doesn't mean USA / Western leadership is not evil. We are seeing a repeat of World War II: two massive evils duking it out, and whoever wins, everybody suffers. And Ukraine (and rest of central Europe) are right in the middle of it.

Idk.
It seems most of Central and a lot of Eastern are more then happy to have the US support