Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Batrix2070]

(well, Polish Sejm was the exception - but that is what happens when you let foreigners into your country's parliament).

Rather, the problem lay in the fact that these people were loyal to the Commonwealth, but thanks to Maria Gouzales wife of Ladislaus IV and John Casimir, bribery of the magnates by neighboring courts entered the norm.
She, in order to create a pro-French party simply bribed half of the magnates, so the other half wanting to save the Republic in their view allowed themselves to be bribed by Austria. Which began to create quite a mess eventually, as the magnates abandoned their previous policy of xenophobia towards foreigners and over time began to become more cosmopolitan than national.

While this wouldn't have been much of a problem if it weren't for the impoverishment of the middle nobility thanks to the Swedish Deluge, thanks to the Swedes the middle part stopping the oligarchy from taking full power collapsed.

Michal Wisniowiecki was the last uprising of the middle nobility against the magnates, but these managed to successfully stifle it, because unfortunately he did not have much of an ally, and his short reign did not allow him to wriggle out of it despite Michal's hard work.

Unfortunately, Jan III Sobieski, one of the magnates who threw a spanner in the king's lap, learned very quickly that his actions and those of the others effectively undermined the authority of the king and later the Sejm, paralyzing Poland for half a century.

At the same time paralyzing only the ability to pass new laws! Because if it was about enforcing the existing ones, the matter was not so obvious.

The best example of this was August III, who was able to rule the country despite the fact that the Sejm had fallen into complete anarchy! Why? Because the Senate continued to function normally. And it was he who fulfilled its role during the paralysis of the Sejm, and during the Poniatowski era this role was fulfilled by the Permanent Council.

 

[mrttao]

As it should have, it was a silly conversation that was giving little to no attention to the scale of numbers involved, which in case of a money discussion is quite silly.

since when are you against oversight on spending? as well as borrowing money to send out as foreign aid?

Page not found – One America News Network

www.oann.com

Page not found – One America News Network

www.oann.com

Globalist senators sell out America with $40B Ukraine aid bill

86 US Senators agree to sell out America with a new $40 billion aid package to Ukraine, at the same time American citizens are struggling just to put food on the table. One America’s Pearson Sharp reports.

www.oann.com

Sadly Rand Paul caved in, along with the typical RINOs. and you ended up with USA printing/borrowing another 40B to give to Ukraine to do... who knows. probably go into the pockets of some corrupt official.

 

[Bacle]

 

[Marduk]

since when are you against oversight on spending? as well as borrowing money to send out as foreign aid?

Page not found – One America News Network

www.oann.com

Page not found – One America News Network

www.oann.com

Globalist senators sell out America with $40B Ukraine aid bill

86 US Senators agree to sell out America with a new $40 billion aid package to Ukraine, at the same time American citizens are struggling just to put food on the table. One America’s Pearson Sharp reports.

www.oann.com

Sadly Rand Paul caved in, along with the typical RINOs. and you ended up with USA printing/borrowing another 40B to give to Ukraine to do.. who knows. probably

Don't you think this is a kinda time sensitive situation?
Also the dramatics about "selling out America" when we are talking about 40bn (about 1\18 of the defense budget, or in more appropriate outrage target terms, mere 1\26 of the projected deficit for the year, what about the 25\26, isn't that more significant? ) are precisely why i've called it a silly conversation.
So if you want to complain about wasteful spending, there is plenty of more questionably useful and bigger ticked items to complain about, but let's be honest, you bring it up because it's about the Russia-Ukraine thing, you don't give a shit about the money numbers.
Where is the conversation about this pile of green bullshit that's 9 times bigger (9 times more, to be proportional)?

Here’s What’s in Democrats’ $370 Billion Climate Spending Deal

In a breakthrough that surprised much of Washington, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and Senator Joe Manchin announced Wednesday they agreed on a plan that includes a record $370 billion in spending to fight climate change.

www.bloomberg.com

 

[Blasterbot]

Don't you think this is a kinda time sensitive situation?
Also the dramatics about "selling out America" when we are talking about 40bn (about 1\18 of the defense budget, or in more appropriate outrage target terms, mere 1\26 of the projected deficit for the year, what about the 25\26, isn't that more significant? ) are precisely why i've called it a silly conversation.
So if you want to complain about wasteful spending, there is plenty of more questionably useful and bigger ticked items to complain about, but let's be honest, you bring it up because it's about the Russia-Ukraine thing, you don't give a shit about the money numbers.
Where is the conversation about this pile of green bullshit that's 9 times bigger (9 times more, to be proportional)?

Here’s What’s in Democrats’ $370 Billion Climate Spending Deal

In a breakthrough that surprised much of Washington, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and Senator Joe Manchin announced Wednesday they agreed on a plan that includes a record $370 billion in spending to fight climate change.

www.bloomberg.com

just because one is egregious doesn't mean the other is any less of a shit idea.

 

[Cherico]

I have said it before and you've said it again for me: I would respect the position a lot more if they were just open about it in that aspect. It really grinds me gears when you have these obviously disingenuous reasons being given to support Ukraine.

its sometimes hard for people not to be self rightous assholes.

What were doing in Ukraine isn't nice, but way I see it there will be a great power who will dominate the west, its going to be either us or russia, and since I live in america I want it to be us.

 

[Marduk]

just because one is egregious doesn't mean the other is any less of a shit idea.

In context of fucking up a hostile major power like Ukraine is doing, tens of billions are a steal compared to the cost of fucking up silly Iraq or AQ in Afghanistan when USA had to do it by own hands. That's an opportunity to get a much bigger effect at much lower cost.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

In context of fucking up a hostile major power like Ukraine is doing, tens of billions are a steal compared to the cost of fucking up silly Iraq or AQ in Afghanistan when USA had to do it by own hands. That's an opportunity to get a much bigger effect at much lower cost.

Not wrong.

It's why proxy-wars are so exciting to the people in charge.

 

[mrttao]

Don't you think this is a kinda time sensitive situation?

1. Time sensitive situations are where you have to be most cautious of the enemy slipping in something nefarious
2. It won't help anyone if the money gets stolen because there was no oversight on it.
3. Set up a voluntary donation fund. Stop stealing my money for your "generous" donations. It is only generous when you are using your own money.

Also the dramatics about "selling out America" when we are talking about 40bn (about 1\18 of the defense budget, or in more appropriate outrage target terms, mere 1\26 of the projected deficit for the year, what about the 25\26, isn't that more significant? ) are precisely why i've called it a silly conversation.

A. 1/18th is not a "mere", it is a massive amount.
B. You are using whataboutism. You can't fix the budget with whataboutism where every time someone points out egregious wrongful spending you go "but what about this other egregious spending".
C. You are falsely indicating that I don't care about the other egregious spending, I absolutely do. I want to trim all of it.

 

[Marduk]

1. Time sensitive situations are where you have to be most cautious of the enemy slipping in something nefarious
2. It won't help anyone if the money gets stolen because there was no oversight on it.
3. Set up a voluntary donation fund. Stop stealing my money for your "generous" donations. It is only generous when you are using your own money.

Want to live in ancapistan, get ancap party to win elections. Otherwise this point applies to any and all government spending. This is serious foreign policy, with wars and "great game" stuff, something that is very much the business of the government, not even bullshit green virtue signalling that gets at least an order of magnitude more money (and less attention from the Russia simping supposed "right" curiously enough).

A. 1/18th is not a "mere", it is a massive amount.

No, the 18/18 is a massive amount, and relatively speaking the 17/18 should be getting the bulk of your interest.

B. You are using whataboutism. You can't fix the budget with whataboutism where every time someone points out egregious wrongful spending you go "but what about this other egregious spending".

But this is not egregiously wrong spending, this one has far better arguments going for it than a lot of the remaining 17/18?

C. You are falsely indicating that I don't care about the other egregious spending, I absolutely do. I want to trim all of it.

Then why do you focus on such a tiny piece of it, when it so just happens that you have demonstrated less economical reasons to oppose this particular small piece of the spending pie?

 

[ATP]

During WW2 they worked 12h/per day 7d/week without hoolidays.And eat 800g of bread and some bad meat.
When they had problems with hoing to their flats,they sleep in factory.
Patriotism? nope,NKWD send those who do not worked well to gulag,or even worst,to infrantry.Gulag you could survive,wave attacks - not many.

But - you need Sralin,not putin,for such politics.And society which is not dying.Putin could not do such things not become he do not want,but becouse he do not have sralin power.

There is very good russian book about that wrote by Boris Sokołow "Straszliwe Zwycięstwo" my translation - terrible victory.

 

[Terthna]

since when are you against oversight on spending? as well as borrowing money to send out as foreign aid?

Since it became inconvenient to the narrative that everyone who opposes Russia are the good guys, and thus above reproach. That's what war does; convinces otherwise reasonable people to abandon their principles in the name of supporting the war effort. The enemy must be defeated, after all; no matter the cost. That's why the conflict won't be ending anytime soon; it's just too useful in getting former critics of the establishment like Marduk to not only excuse corruption, but also denounce anyone trying to criticize it as an enemy.

 

[mrttao]

Then why do you focus on such a tiny piece of it

This thread is titled "Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion" not "mrttao airs out all his grievances about the govt".
The 40 billion dollar Ukraine bailout is relevant to the topic of this thread.

All the other egregious spending by the USA govt isn't. However, I have raised it in other threads where it is relevant. For example in the "biden admin policies" thread.

 

[Bacle]

Since it became inconvenient to the narrative that everyone who opposes Russia are the good guys, and thus above reproach. That's what war does; convinces otherwise reasonable people to abandon their principles in the name of supporting the war effort. The enemy must be defeated, after all; no matter the cost. That's why the conflict won't be ending anytime soon; it's just too useful in getting former critics of the establishment like Marduk to not only excuse corruption, but also denounce anyone trying to criticize it as an enemy.

You aren't wrong that there are people who want to completely paper over any problems in the West, or any criticism of Ukraine's gov (no matter how justified), as with accusations of supporting Russia against any complainers.

However, the fact is Russia is the one who began this aggression (yes, I know you and others think the Maidan justifies this/excuses this conflict) and it is Russia who is engaging in nuclear terrorism by using nuclear power plants as artillery bases/fucked around and made Chernobyl even worse (UXOs on top of rads now).

People simping for Russia because 'WEF owns the west/Russia based' bullshit are either gullible fools, idiots, or people who get paid for it.

There is a difference between rightly criticizing issues where anti-corruption measures are being removed/ignored due to 'war-time' propaganda (what Rand Paul was worried about in the aid package, when he requested oversight mechanisms), and simping for Russia because they buy Russian lies/just hate the (current) west that much (what a few idiots who are letting hatred of the WEF/Soros/ Schwab override better judgement about self-defense).

Russia is not, and never will be, the good guy in this fight; it doesn't matter what domestic issues are going on, none will change that.

 

[Marduk]

Since it became inconvenient to the narrative that everyone who opposes Russia are the good guys, and thus above reproach. That's what war does; convinces otherwise reasonable people to abandon their principles in the name of supporting the war effort. The enemy must be defeated, after all; no matter the cost. That's why the conflict won't be ending anytime soon; it's just too useful in getting former critics of the establishment like Marduk to not only excuse corruption, but also denounce anyone trying to criticize it as an enemy.

"former critics of establishment".
What made you think that?
If you don't immediately start supporting the Islamic State, does that make you a "former critic of establishment" because the establishment opposes it?
Real world politics aren't a Hollywood "good guys and bad guys" movie for silly teenagers. It happens quite often that the people fighting the assholes are another brand of assholes.
I was suspicious of Russia before Hillary Clinton was pushing her "reset", i was wary of it afterwards, i only got more distrustful of it after the events of 2008 and 2014, and no election result in any western country can change my opinion on the matter.

Going back to the specific situation, this isn't the best circumstance to worry about potential corruption, considering both the rather small by standards of US federal spending scale of it, and the time sensitive nature of it (as opposed to orders of magnitude larger recent pork bills pushed as infrastructure, covid relief, or whatever).

This thread is titled "Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion" not "mrttao airs out all his grievances about the govt".
The 40 billion dollar Ukraine bailout is relevant to the topic of this thread.

Yes it is. The whining about "potential corruption" is people who simp for Russia grasping for straws to argue their case. You can tell by the fact that it is suspiciously vocalized mostly by people who side with Russia in this conflict regardless, so you would expect that they would have shut up if they truly believed that the money would have been "disappeared" rather than helped Ukrainian war effort. The fact that they whine regardless does indicate that at least a good portion of the money is arriving where it should.

 

[Bacle]

Yes it is. The whining about "potential corruption" is people who simp for Russia grasping for straws to argue their case. You can tell by the fact that it is suspiciously vocalized mostly by people who side with Russia in this conflict regardless, so you would expect that they would have shut up if they truly believed that the money would have been "disappeared" rather than helped Ukrainian war effort. The fact that they whine regardless does indicate that at least a good portion of the money is arriving where it should.

So Rand Paul is a simp for Russia for wanting oversight mechanisms in the US aid packages?

Maybe dial back your rhetoric a bit and actually look at what the objections people have about stuff related to Ukraine, instead of labeling anyone worried about aid oversight as a Russian simp.

I mean seriously , when you jump on people and attack them for stuff like that, you do Russia's job for them by making it it's even harder to have any sort of nuanced or rational discourse in the West about how best to make sure the money going to Ukraine actually help's people there, instead of ending up on the black market or funneled into Woke NGO's that don't actually do shit for Ukraine.

 

[mrttao]

Yes it is. The whining about "potential corruption" is people who simp for Russia grasping for straws to argue their case. You can tell by the fact that it is suspiciously vocalized mostly by people who side with Russia in this conflict regardless, so you would expect that they would have shut up if they truly believed that the money would have been "disappeared" rather than helped Ukrainian war effort. The fact that they whine regardless does indicate that at least a good portion of the money is arriving where it should.

1. I don't "simp" for russia. I describe russia as "An evil government, an oppressed citizenry, a fake democracy."

Spoiler: I said

Russia, Ukraine, USA, and the european countries involved are all cut from the same cloth. An evil government, an oppressed citizenry, a fake democracy.

2. My sole reason for wanting russia to win is not because I think russia are "the good guys". This is an "evil vs evil" war (as is usually the case with wars). I want russia to win simply because the evil that oppresses me aligned itself against russia.

Spoiler: I said

I hope russia wins. I don't give a fuck about Ukraine, I just want the evil government that oppresses me to lose, because I hate them.

3. You falsely claim I only complain about the ukraine spending. Here is proof otherwise

Spoiler: I said

There are MANY problems right now. But the biggest one is

The Most Important Money Statistic…. Ever.

So, you don’t have to be an economist to interpret this. I’ll explain it in layman’s terms without any fancy jargon.

medium.datadriveninvestor.com

2020-01-06 dollars in circulation*: 3.984 trillion
2020-04-27 dollars in circulation*: 4.899 trillion
2020-05-04 dollars in circulation*: 15.982 trillion
2021-01-01 dollars in circulation*: 18.185 trillion
*according to the federal reserve:

that was 226% inflation in less than a month during 2020.
real actual inflation not the lies printed by media.
Total actual real 2020 inflation is 356% according to the feds own numbers.

Critically important is that on 2021-01-01 the federal reserve stopped sharing this information with the public! So any further real inflation is now a secret while they lie and claim it is "really only 8.5%" and controlled opposition outlets like fox news claim it is really 17%. It isn't. It was 356% in 2020 and a secret amount in 2021

4. To be honest, I am expecting Russia to end up capturing a lot of the materiel the west is sending to Ukraine.

5. You are literally replying to me linking/quoting oann articles about how rand paul held up the 40B because he pointed out there is zero oversight to ensure the money is not all being stolen. Does this make him a russian simp?

And instead of adding such oversight, they just tarred and feathered him in the press as a traitor until he backed off. With both democrats and republicans going after him with zeal. Very disappointing to see how easily the democrats can play you.

6. You are trying very very hard to paint me into an "enemy" here. Insulting and attacking me instead of looking at what I actually said. This kind of tactic isn't going to convince anyone that you are right.

 

[Marduk]

So Rand Paul is a simp for Russia for wanting oversight mechanisms in the US aid packages?

Maybe dial back your rhetoric a bit and actually look at what the objections people have about stuff related to Ukraine, instead of labeling anyone worried about aid oversight as a Russian simp.

Unfortunately he is. Not because of that little event when he wanted more oversight (though this can very well be part of it, as it is a trade-off of delays vs oversight), but because of his other comments, which demonstrates the strange correlation i've pointed out.

Rand Paul echoes Putin's talking points on Ukraine while arguing with Blinken over Russia's motives for invading

Though Paul said there was no justifying Russia's invasion, he also parroted Putin's rhetoric about NATO and Ukraine's history.

www.businessinsider.com

1. I don't "simp" for russia. I describe russia as



2. My sole reason for wanting russia to win is not because I think russia are "the good guys". This is an "evil vs evil" war (as is usually the case with wars). I want russia to win simply because the evil that oppresses me aligned itself against russia.

So about as thoughtless as i expected. You have the principles of a weathervane. Wind blows from one direction, you point to the opposite.

6. You are trying very very hard to paint me into an "enemy" here. Insulting and attacking me instead of looking at what I actually said. This kind of tactic isn't going to convince anyone that you are right.

The above comment implies that to paint you as an "enemy" would ascribe an undeserved amount of thought and consideration to the reasons behind your choice sympathies in this conflict.

 

[mrttao]

snip

7. And another thing. Where does this end? remember the war on terror? It gave us Isis and the mass muslim migration into europe as the USA kept on "liberating" middle eastern countries.

Hey, who knows. maybe Russia will just start selling off nukes Oil rich countries to help prop up its economy during the sanctions years.

 

[Marduk]

7. And another thing. Where does this end? remember the war on terror? It gave us Isis and the mass muslim migration into europe as the USA kept on "liberating" middle eastern countries.

Not "it". Mass Muslim migration into Europe was already happening, and has more to do with locals unwillingness to stop it by force than any typical ME stuff whether it involved USA or not.

Hey, who knows. maybe Russia will just start selling off nukes Oil rich countries to help prop up its economy during the sanctions years.

a) Pakistan and North Korea are way ahead of them in considering that sort of bullshit.
b) Russian establishment has enough sense to realize that there is a slight chance that USA would have enough guts to take retaliation in form of nuclear armed Poland, Georgia, Romania, and perhaps even Ukraine. So any satisfaction of fucking with US ME policy for the hell of it would be compensated by Russia's own near-geostrategy getting messed up for good.