The political and cultural development of Europe without the creation of Islam?

WolfBear

Well-known member
What would the political and cultural development of Europe over the last 1,400 years have looked like without the creation of Islam?

I'm specifically asking about Europe here because Europe was mostly unaffected by Islam for the first several centuries of Islam's existence, with the exception of Spain, Portugal, Sicily, southern France, and the Byzantine Empire, of course. Europe did have an impact from things such as the Crusades, but they occurred almost 500 years after the creation of Islam, and even then, the Crusades' main value was in cultural exchange, which I suppose Christian kingdoms in Europe could have achieved anyway even without Islam by cooperating with the Byzantine Empire, no?

Anyway, what do you personally think about this? Which meaningful effects would a lack of Islam have on the political and cultural development of Europe over the last 1,400 years? Any thoughts on this, @stevep @History Learner @Chiron @raharris1973 @Zyobot @sillygoose @Atarlost @Earl @Skallagrim @TheRomanSlayer @GoldRanger
 
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Atarlost

Well-known member
To start with, that depends on the political and cultural development of Asia Minor, North Africa, and the Levant. The Mediterranean remains the center of civilization without the Christian/Muslim divide making it a boundary between civilizations.
 

Simonbob

Well-known member
There was a youtube video talking about the hundreds of slaver raids into Europe by Muslims pre-Crusades. Heck, the Barbery pirates were Muslims.


I expect there would be less communication and willingness to work together, and a more disunited Christianinty, without the external enemy.

The single Catholic Church, that spoke to the whole contenent, most likely would have broken up.
 

ATP

Well-known member
What would the political and cultural development of Europe over the last 1,400 years have looked like without the creation of Islam?

I'm specifically asking about Europe here because Europe was mostly unaffected by Islam for the first several centuries of Islam's existence, with the exception of Spain, Portugal, Sicily, southern France, and the Byzantine Empire, of course. Europe did have an impact from things such as the Crusades, but they occurred almost 500 years after the creation of Islam, and even then, the Crusades' main value was in cultural exchange, which I suppose Christian kingdoms in Europe could have achieved anyway even without Islam by cooperating with the Byzantine Empire, no?

Anyway, what do you personally think about this? Which meaningful effects would a lack of Islam have on the political and cultural development of Europe over the last 1,400 years? Any thoughts on this, @stevep @History Learner @Chiron @raharris1973 @Zyobot @sillygoose @Atarlost @Earl @Skallagrim @TheRomanSlayer @GoldRanger

Christian Africa.ERE would probably expand there - so,it would be orthodox version.
Visigoths in Spain.
Rest of Europe - without many changes.ERE would be preocupied with Persia and taking more Africa,no additional forces for Europe.But - they would not fall here.Until mongols come,of course.
Christian mongols ruling Russia and most of ERE territories? why not?
 

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
Would agree that the Mediterranean remains the core of European civilization. The ERE is going to benefit immensely without the Muslims tearing away half of their empire right after they & the Sassanids have beaten each other into a pulp, and continuing to drain away resources which they could've sent against the Slavs in the Balkans or the Lombards in Italy instead. I've said it in past similar threads but you'll probably see Monothelitism become official Christian doctrine, at least for some time, since it had actually gotten the approval of both the West and East (even if the Heraclians had to twist the Pope's arm into accepting it) and only fell out of favor historically because Syria and Egypt, the regions whose Christian populations it was designed to compromise with, were irretrievably lost to Islam.

That said, it's not going to be easy for the ERE to attempt a Justinian-style reconquest of the rest of the west either. By the 7th century, even without taking Islam into account the Lombards have overrun almost all of Italy, the Visigoths have already driven them out of southern Spain and the Franks are a tougher nut to crack than either of those (probably both of them combined tbh). I could see a revitalized ERE being able to beat down the Lombards and reconquer Italy eventually, since at least they actually have some bases inside the peninsula to start from, but the more distant and powerful Visigoths & Franks will probably be able to remain independent.

We might see a western schism in the form of proto-national churches arising in the barbarian kingdoms, setting themselves apart both politically and religiously from the 'Roman' Church of Constantinople & Rome itself (which will be firmly under Roman imperial authority). Not sure what this would look like in Gothia (the Visigoths have turned away from & suppressed Arianism already), but you might see a Merovingian king who reunites the various kingdoms of Francia assert himself as the head of the Frankish Church or something, with an equivalent to Gallicanism potentially arising as a compromise position if they ever reconcile with the Romans. (If you really want to go wild with this timeline, imagine lasting Merovingians who go the Holy Blood, Holy Grail/Da Vinci Code route and try to set themselves up as Western Europe's Yamato dynasty by claiming they're semi-divine sovereigns descended from Jesus, heh)

Definitely a much more Christian Africa, especially West Africa. Without Islam rolling in and wrecking all the preexisting arrangements, the Maghreb will likely be thought of as an extension of Southern Europe ITL, dominated by an African Romance Mauri/'Moorish' culture that conceives of itself as the heir to the legacy of Hannibal, Septimius Severus & Saint Augustine and speaks a language similar to Sardinian. Spared of the 698 sack, Carthage endures as a major city while Tunis remains a village in its shadow. Aside from a Christian equivalent to Mali potentially crashing the Mediterranean economy with an overly lavish pilgrimage to Jerusalem, it's been speculated that the Malians may also have journeyed to the Americas. Maybe this will be a timeline with a Moorish Brazil and Ghanan/Malian Argentina?

Lastly - historically the grandson of the last Sassanid Shah was a Christian. And without Islam destroying the Sassanid Empire, Nestorian Christianity remains the majority religion of Mesopotamia, the core of the Sassanids' realm. Perhaps a Christian Persia, further projecting the faith into Central Asia and India (where there are already some existing Nestorians in the form of the Saint Thomas Christians or Nasrani) will also be in the cards? Overall, I'd imagine this will be a much more Christian-dominated world, although of course I'm sure there will be schisms within Christianity itself (at minimum I'd guess at 'barbarian' Christian churches in the north & west, the core Roman-Constantinopolitan 'orthodox' church dominating the Mediterranean, and the Nestorian Church of the East in - well - the east) to keep things 'interesting'.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Would agree that the Mediterranean remains the core of European civilization. The ERE is going to benefit immensely without the Muslims tearing away half of their empire right after they & the Sassanids have beaten each other into a pulp, and continuing to drain away resources which they could've sent against the Slavs in the Balkans or the Lombards in Italy instead. I've said it in past similar threads but you'll probably see Monothelitism become official Christian doctrine, at least for some time, since it had actually gotten the approval of both the West and East (even if the Heraclians had to twist the Pope's arm into accepting it) and only fell out of favor historically because Syria and Egypt, the regions whose Christian populations it was designed to compromise with, were irretrievably lost to Islam.

That said, it's not going to be easy for the ERE to attempt a Justinian-style reconquest of the rest of the west either. By the 7th century, even without taking Islam into account the Lombards have overrun almost all of Italy, the Visigoths have already driven them out of southern Spain and the Franks are a tougher nut to crack than either of those (probably both of them combined tbh). I could see a revitalized ERE being able to beat down the Lombards and reconquer Italy eventually, since at least they actually have some bases inside the peninsula to start from, but the more distant and powerful Visigoths & Franks will probably be able to remain independent.

We might see a western schism in the form of proto-national churches arising in the barbarian kingdoms, setting themselves apart both politically and religiously from the 'Roman' Church of Constantinople & Rome itself (which will be firmly under Roman imperial authority). Not sure what this would look like in Gothia (the Visigoths have turned away from & suppressed Arianism already), but you might see a Merovingian king who reunites the various kingdoms of Francia assert himself as the head of the Frankish Church or something, with an equivalent to Gallicanism potentially arising as a compromise position if they ever reconcile with the Romans. (If you really want to go wild with this timeline, imagine lasting Merovingians who go the Holy Blood, Holy Grail/Da Vinci Code route and try to set themselves up as Western Europe's Yamato dynasty by claiming they're semi-divine sovereigns descended from Jesus, heh)

Definitely a much more Christian Africa, especially West Africa. Without Islam rolling in and wrecking all the preexisting arrangements, the Maghreb will likely be thought of as an extension of Southern Europe ITL, dominated by an African Romance Mauri/'Moorish' culture that conceives of itself as the heir to the legacy of Hannibal, Septimius Severus & Saint Augustine and speaks a language similar to Sardinian. Spared of the 698 sack, Carthage endures as a major city while Tunis remains a village in its shadow. Aside from a Christian equivalent to Mali potentially crashing the Mediterranean economy with an overly lavish pilgrimage to Jerusalem, it's been speculated that the Malians may also have journeyed to the Americas. Maybe this will be a timeline with a Moorish Brazil and Ghanan/Malian Argentina?

Lastly - historically the grandson of the last Sassanid Shah was a Christian. And without Islam destroying the Sassanid Empire, Nestorian Christianity remains the majority religion of Mesopotamia, the core of the Sassanids' realm. Perhaps a Christian Persia, further projecting the faith into Central Asia and India (where there are already some existing Nestorians in the form of the Saint Thomas Christians or Nasrani) will also be in the cards? Overall, I'd imagine this will be a much more Christian-dominated world, although of course I'm sure there will be schisms within Christianity itself (at minimum I'd guess at 'barbarian' Christian churches in the north & west, the core Roman-Constantinopolitan 'orthodox' church dominating the Mediterranean, and the Nestorian Church of the East in - well - the east) to keep things 'interesting'.

If ERE reclaim Rome,they would try turn popes into puppets.We would have few martyrs more,and finally popes would go to Franks or Visigoths.
And i read about nestorians in China and maybe even Japan in OTL.
 

stevep

Well-known member
What would the political and cultural development of Europe over the last 1,400 years have looked like without the creation of Islam?

I'm specifically asking about Europe here because Europe was mostly unaffected by Islam for the first several centuries of Islam's existence, with the exception of Spain, Portugal, Sicily, southern France, and the Byzantine Empire, of course. Europe did have an impact from things such as the Crusades, but they occurred almost 500 years after the creation of Islam, and even then, the Crusades' main value was in cultural exchange, which I suppose Christian kingdoms in Europe could have achieved anyway even without Islam by cooperating with the Byzantine Empire, no?

Anyway, what do you personally think about this? Which meaningful effects would a lack of Islam have on the political and cultural development of Europe over the last 1,400 years? Any thoughts on this, @stevep @History Learner @Chiron @raharris1973 @Zyobot @sillygoose @Atarlost @Earl @Skallagrim @TheRomanSlayer @GoldRanger

Would agree with the comments of others and hence have to disagree with your comment above. Europe was very affected by the emergence of Islam from early on, especially with its conquest of most of the Mediterranian shore. It could be said that the modern view of Europe only existed because of Islam as it left Europe as a separate and somewhat isolated religious and social entity. Doubly so after the Turks further crippled Byzantium which both drove the latter out of the Levant and most of Anatolia and weakened Orthodoxy as a rival to Catholicism.

Of course things depend on the exact POD and near term butterflies. For instance if Muhammad had died early and never created a religious following I have seen it suggested that the collapse of irrigation systems in Yemen and increase in aridity in much of the Arab peninsula would have resulted in a surge of forces out of the peninsula into neighbouring lands anyway. However without a specific and strong new faith to unite them they would probably fairly quickly convert to some version of the dominant faiths of the lands they conquer, i.e. Catholic or Orthodox Christianity and Zoroastrianism so their effects would be fairly limited in such a case. Although they might prompt division either religiously by supporting other sects of Christianity or politically by weakening Constantinople. Which might still mean that the Papacy still emerges as a political and religious rival to Constantinople among other things.

Without Islam then Christianity will spread much further into Africa and Asia in part because its basic themes are so attractive to centralised power and its sheer bloody mindedness. However it will splinter even more than OTL because there's no way that any Pope or Patrician will be able to maintain control against such vast areas. Especially since variant sects can also serve as a source of identities to new converted people's who don't want to tie themselves to a distant religious ruler. This would be important for the political rulers of those new states as that avoids Catholic/Orthodox subjects being potential 5th columnists in their states.

Given Islam's own success there I can see Christianity becoming popular in India as well, although probably with as much bloodshed as during Islamic rule, if not more. Not so sure about China assuming its very strong identity and focus around Buddhism and Confucianism still occurs but could end up ruling most of Euro-Asian and Africa,

Steve
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
There was a youtube video talking about the hundreds of slaver raids into Europe by Muslims pre-Crusades. Heck, the Barbery pirates were Muslims.


I expect there would be less communication and willingness to work together, and a more disunited Christianinty, without the external enemy.

The single Catholic Church, that spoke to the whole contenent, most likely would have broken up.

The Catholic Church didn't break up in real life, but it did have a lot of eventual defectors in the form of Protestants. That sort of counts for this--right?

Though there was the Great Schism in the late 14th and early 15th centuries:


Western_schism_1378-1417.svg
 

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