ASOIAF/GOT The 'Realism' of the World of ASOIAF/GOT

[Deleted member 88]

Regarding the Faith of the Seven there is some limited evidence for miracles.

The Seven are said to have walked with Hugor of the Hill.

The maiden's statue shed tears which caused the High septon to surrender to Aegon.

Catelyn and Sansa both sort of have prayers answered.

Sansa prays at the blackwater-which seems to be at the same time the goldcloaks begin to flee, (IIRC she doesn't pray for Stannis to win). Davos and Lancel both have visions of the Seven.

So...its limited and often unclear? But maybe?

Also Euron has captured Septons for his upcoming magic sacrifice. So maybe there is something to the Faith.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Say, anybody notice how “small” the Lord Paramount families are outside of the Lannisters and Tyrells?

I’d expect many more branch families even if the Starks had to kill the Greystarks long ago

Yes, lots of nobles have probably a Stark or Durrandon/Baratheon ancestor somewhere

But I’d expect there to have been excesses of second/third/fourth/fifth sons, bastards and cousins and uncles who would have been given a small keep somewhere in the Kingdom who may also have multiple children as well

 

[Bear Ribs]

Say, anybody notice how “small” the Lord Paramount families are outside of the Lannisters and Tyrells?

I’d expect many more branch families even if the Starks had to kill the Greystarks long ago

Yes, lots of nobles have probably a Stark or Durrandon/Baratheon ancestor somewhere

But I’d expect there to have been excesses of second/third/fourth/fifth sons, bastards and cousins and uncles who would have been given a small keep somewhere in the Kingdom who may also have multiple children as well

That's pretty much what you'd expect of a modern day setting wearing medieval paint. Much like the modern day, families are tiny instead of the large ones an actual medieval setting would have.

 

[Navarro]

That's pretty much what you'd expect of a modern day setting wearing medieval paint. Much like the modern day, families are tiny instead of the large ones an actual medieval setting would have.

And they've supposedly all lasted for ten thousand years ...

 

[CarlManvers2019]

That's pretty much what you'd expect of a modern day setting wearing medieval paint. Much like the modern day, families are tiny instead of the large ones an actual medieval setting would have.

And they've supposedly all lasted for ten thousand years ...

I don't think the Tyrells would have gotten away with what they did, Aegon would have just made a Gardener Branch House which should have existed even as a smaller House, Lord Paramounts instead

 

[Deleted member 88]

That's pretty much what you'd expect of a modern day setting wearing medieval paint. Much like the modern day, families are tiny instead of the large ones an actual medieval setting would have.

In fairness the Lannisters have four cadet branches and the Lannisters of Lannisport and we only really see the main line of the Lannisters of Casterly rock, there was Joanna and Stafford's side of the family, and apparently there is a Lannister married to a Peake interestingly in the Reach.

The Tyrells also have cousins, though we only hear about Margaery's handmaidens. Also there is a cadet Arryn branch at Gulltown.

Its the Starks and Tullies and to some extent the Baratheons which have family numbers which are unrealistically small.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

The Tyrells also have cousins, though we only hear about Margaery's handmaidens. Also there is a cadet Arryn branch at Gulltown.

Given how the Tyrells only became very important around 300 years before canon when they essentially betrayed the Gardeners

And seem to have a bigger extended-family than a number of the other Lord Paramount Houses, I'm not counting Oberyn's many bastards, it's slightly damning of those who are older

Also, speaking of the Gulltown Arryns, I think I recall the main branch barely really considering them kin due to mercantilism

Perhaps the Winters are part of why Houses are so small, alongside the question as to which areas would be "fit" for one of their House

The Boltons might be a sort of extremely long lived idea of "The most EVIL, not the strongest/smartest/fertile survive, to continue the House"

Maybe Roose got his father killed, or since he's against kinslaying, he "let him die". Still a miracle to last thousands of years, let alone centuries

 

[CarlManvers2019]

I just thought of something

Why exactly is it that the First Men didn't have any Knight-equivalents?

I mean I'm pretty sure they have cavalry and a thing for fighting on horseback, but why no knights?

Or Cataphractii or Samurai

TBH, I don't know much about a lot of pre-industrial cultures, but I'd expect for a sort of special class of warrior that's above the usual Men-At-Arms' and bellow the Lords and their relatives in combat themselves

 

[Aldarion]

I just thought of something

Why exactly is it that the First Men didn't have any Knight-equivalents?

I mean I'm pretty sure they have cavalry and a thing for fighting on horseback, but why no knights?

Or Cataphractii or Samurai

TBH, I don't know much about a lot of pre-industrial cultures, but I'd expect for a sort of special class of warrior that's above the usual Men-At-Arms' and bellow the Lords and their relatives in combat themselves

Knight was originally just a heavily armoured cavalryman. In fact, they evolved as a response to / imitation of Byzantine kataphraktoi, which are... heavily armoured cavalrymen. It did not have special social status in the beginning. But once it did recieve such, knights became a social class while their former role was taken up by "mounted men-at-arms" (I believe "man at arms" was originally just an armed soldier as opposed to a heavy cavalryman).

Maester Luwin in fact points that out: just because Northern heavy cavalry are not called knights does not mean they are not functionally same as knights.

 

[Navarro]

Knight was originally just a heavily armoured cavalryman. In fact, they evolved as a response to / imitation of Byzantine kataphraktoi, which are... heavily armoured cavalrymen. It did not have special social status in the beginning. But once it did recieve such, knights became a social class while their former role was taken up by "mounted men-at-arms" (I believe "man at arms" was originally just an armed soldier as opposed to a heavy cavalryman).

Knights even existed as far back as the Roman Republic, where they formed a second-tier aristocracy below the Senatorial class.

 

[Aldarion]

Knights even existed as far back as the Roman Republic, where they formed a second-tier aristocracy below the Senatorial class.

In sense of "persons wealthy enough to fight as cavalry", yes. But equites were always open to entrance of people who satisfied wealth requirements, as far as I'm aware, making them more similar to knights of Early Middle Ages, than those of Middle Middle Ages.

 

[ATP]

In sense of "persons wealthy enough to fight as cavalry", yes. But equites were always open to entrance of people who satisfied wealth requirements, as far as I'm aware, making them more similar to knights of Early Middle Ages, than those of Middle Middle Ages.

Interesting things - first polish rulers,Mieszko and Bolesław Chrobry,had small/4.000/ standing army made from calvary named "pancerni"/my translation - armored/ .
They were no knights,and have no lands,but get real money to live.After polish state collapsed for few years/about1040/ all next rulers need knights,becouse they had no enough money to pay their calvary - so they must gave them lands.

 

[Lanmandragon]

Given how the Tyrells only became very important around 300 years before canon when they essentially betrayed the Gardeners

And seem to have a bigger extended-family than a number of the other Lord Paramount Houses, I'm not counting Oberyn's many bastards, it's slightly damning of those who are older

Also, speaking of the Gulltown Arryns, I think I recall the main branch barely really considering them kin due to mercantilism

Perhaps the Winters are part of why Houses are so small, alongside the question as to which areas would be "fit" for one of their House

The Boltons might be a sort of extremely long lived idea of "The most EVIL, not the strongest/smartest/fertile survive, to continue the House"

Maybe Roose got his father killed, or since he's against kinslaying, he "let him die". Still a miracle to last thousands of years, let alone centuries

"Only 300 years" is longer then many goverments last historically. 300 years is a decent run evening its ends right there.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

"Only 300 years" is longer then many goverments last historically. 300 years is a decent run evening its ends right there.

And supposedly these Houses are thousands of years old

 

[Bear Ribs]

I ran into this while researching medieval migration patterns for another project and found it interesting:



Lyman Stone specializes in demographics and migration patterns so his insights are somewhat different from what anybody else has brought to this thread. I found his conclusion that JRRM scaled up the UK to "continent sized" and called it good interesting and it does answer questions I hadn't even asked, such as why a continent the size of South America has only four ethnic groups (much like the UK does). He also gets into it's bizarre population distribution with outright massive cities (relative to local technology levels) and rather unpopulated countryside (90% of the population should be farmers), almost as if it's actually a modern setting where most of the population is urban, and somebody put a coat of medieval paint on it.

 

[Aldarion]

@Bear Ribs That is precisely what ASoIaF is. It is a modern world with medieval aesthetics. It is completely different from actual Middle Ages, and even from early Modernity.

 

[Bear Ribs]

@Bear Ribs That is precisely what ASoIaF is. It is a modern world with medieval aesthetics. It is completely different from actual Middle Ages, and even from early Modernity.

Why didn't I think of that?

In other news responses to Lyman Stone are hilarious. I especially like the one that told him Europe doesn't have any diversity, it's all just white people so his complaint that Westeros lacks ethnic diversity is invalid.

 

[Aldarion]

Why didn't I think of that?

In other news responses to Lyman Stone are hilarious. I especially like the one that told him Europe doesn't have any diversity, it's all just white people so his complaint that Westeros lacks ethnic diversity is invalid.

Well, Medieval Europe was (mostly) white people... but it had huge ethnic (and genetic) diversity.

It might be a topic to consider writing about...

 

[ATP]

@Bear Ribs That is precisely what ASoIaF is. It is a modern world with medieval aesthetics. It is completely different from actual Middle Ages, and even from early Modernity.

And people thinking in modern way.Only using medieval technology.

 

[Typhonis]

Here is a question. How realistic is the money system in ASOIAF? Does the way the coinage work make sense? Because if memory serves me right... 200 silver for 1 gold dragon? WTF?