Transgender Rights

[Abhorsen]

But they are not adults. Trans activists and lobbies demand plastic surgery for children and teenagers.

And I disagree with that. But that's not what you originally said:

I don't care. The legitimacy of thier claims is trivial to disprove from first principles. They are insane and should receive psychiatric care with the intent to cure rather than plastic surgery to encourage their beliefs.

We weren't talking about a child then, but an adult (given @ShadowArxxy has an account here). You, on the other hand, I'm not sure about. All your posts seem to be childish 'arguments' that mostly consist of insisting you are correct, not reading my posts that specifically talk about how adults deserve the right to transition, and whining about things you don't like.

 

[Doomsought]

And I disagree with that. But that's not what you originally said:

Reality is that which remains true when you do not believe in it.
The foundation of transsexual legitimacy is that a person is male or female because they believe that they are male or female.
Then a person has the belief change, do they remain male or female?
The state does not remain true regardless of beliefs. Therefore, according to the definition of reality, it is not real, it is just a belief, a delusion.
This is a proof from first principles. You have to change the definition of reality to something more along the lines of Plato to disprove it.

Your arguments do not rely on countering my arguments, but confusing them. You never directly argue against my statements but bring up other unrelated statements tangentially related statements and call them immoral. You never actuality strike at the validity of the ideas on a logical basis.

 

[Abhorsen]

Reality is that which remains true when you do not believe in it.
The foundation of transsexual legitimacy is that a person is male or female because they believe that they are male or female.

That isn't the "foundation of transsexual legitimacy". Not two sentences in, and you are wrong.

The "foundation of transsexual legitimacy" is that gender dysphoria exists, where a person believes they were born in the wrong body.

People who feel this way as an adult get surgery to make their body match what their brain says should be there. Then then can identify as a woman, on the grounds that they look mostly feminine, are usually treated as a woman, and consider themselves as a woman. This is a complex process, part of which includes gender as a performance (e.g. acting as a woman and being seen as a woman), that most transtrenders fail at (e.g. the man dressed like a woman but has a full beard). Note that the onus here is on the trans person, not society, to get acceptance.

Your arguments do not rely on countering my arguments, but confusing them. You never directly argue against my statements but bring up other unrelated statements tangentially related statements and call them immoral. You never actuality strike at the validity of the ideas on a logical basis.

Because you haven't made many arguments until this point, just statements, which are conclusions without any evidence. Then you tried switching the topic and trying to make it about trans kids, which I had already excluded. The one exception, your hippocampus argument, didn't prove anything but instead just seems to be an argument that yes, gender dysphoria really exists, which is my point.

Honestly, please stop. You are making me empathize with child beaters on how easy this is.

 

[Doomsought]

The "foundation of transsexual legitimacy" is that gender dysphoria exists, where a person believes they were born in the wrong body.

And I have proved that it is a delusion. Nothing you are arguing about has any causal relation to your assertions.

 

[Abhorsen]

And I have proved that it is a delusion. Nothing you are arguing about has any causal relation to your assertions.

No, you didn't. You repeatedly haven't. What world do you live on? You literally gave evidence that it does exist:

Any sort of mentall illness, behavior, or skill will have an effect on the brain structure if you look hard enough.

 

[Doomsought]

No, you didn't. You repeatedly haven't. What world do you live on? You literally gave evidence that it does exist:

Just because you believe ins something that is not real does not mean that it is not make the action of you believing not real.

This is one of your worst problems with logic, you cannot separate the contents from a container. I proved that the contents of the beliefs and feelings that result from dysphoria is not real. It is just more expedient to say that transgenderism or dysphoria is a (type of) delusion.

 

[ATP]

They do not fight with Trump,but with biology.Every human with active chromosome Y is male,all othere are females.Becouse people could not cut their own chromosomes,they could not change your sex.

 

[Doomsought]

They do not fight with Trump,but with biology.Every human with active chromosome Y is male,all othere are females.Becouse people could not cut their own chromosomes,they could not change your sex.

There are also the crippled mutants, but they are the exception the proves the rule, given the organ failure and cancer.

 

[Abhorsen]

Just because you believe ins something that is not real does not mean that it is not make the action of you believing not real.

I love how you say this, right after this statement:

Homosexuality is just sexual fetish. You are just a pervert. It is not important, and you should keep your sexual deviancy out of public like everyone else. Telling a stranger that you are gay is no different than telling a stranger you have a BDSM fetish. It is disgusting exhibitionism.

Or really any of your statements. There's a huge body of knowledge about how gender dysphoria exists, including the brainscans, which you so helpfully backed up. Do you have any evidence for your own claims, instead of further backing up mine? Because it seems quite clear to me that you don't actually think, you just have a bigoted opinion, then proceed to insist it is true. Again, I'm calling Doomsoughts opinion bigoted because he hates LGBTs (see previous posts of mine and his for evidence), and puts no thought into it, it's quite possible to come to this opinion without being a bigot.

This is one of your worst problems with logic, you cannot separate the contents from a container. I proved that the contents of the beliefs and feelings that result from dysphoria is not real. It is just more expedient to say that transgenderism or dysphoria is a (type of) delusion.

You didn't, actually. You made a false claim at the very beginning, then compounded that idiocy with further idiocy. Gender dysphoria being a real thing, and that therapy doesn't solve it, gives a strong piece of evidence for those that don't age out of it.

They do not fight with Trump,but with biology.Every human with active chromosome Y is male,all othere are females.Becouse people could not cut their own chromosomes,they could not change your sex.

No one here is claiming one can change one sex, despite Doomsoughts attempts to claim I did. That isn't even the argument for transgenderism.

 

[Doomsought]

Do you have any evidence for your own claims, instead of further backing up mine?

This is a lie. You have made no coherent argument to support this claim. Show the logic to support how B follows A. When you rudely doubted my claim of a trivial proof from first principles, I provided you the proof. You did not take my proof in good faith, but instead responded with base sophistry and constantly use ad hominum arguments.

 

[Abhorsen]

This is a lie. You have made no coherent argument to support this claim. Show the logic to support how B follows A. When you rudely doubted my claim of a trivial proof from first principles, I provided you the proof. You did not take my proof in good faith, but instead responded with base sophistry and constantly use ad hominum arguments.

So you didn't provide any proof, you just made up the wrong definition for what transgender claims, then 'defeated it'. That's a strawman. That's not actually proof. And yes, I engaged in ad hominem attacks, because for you, they are so easy when it comes to you, it was fun, and you still haven't provided any evidence for your own side.

But here's one way the argument goes.:

As you so kindly acknowledged, brainscans show that gender dysphoria exists. So does historical evidence from a number of cultures with repeated examples of people who did not feel comfortable in their own bodies (for example, two spirits in American Indian tribes). Then, we know that this lasts into adulthood for some people for that same reason. Now we have an adult who wants to have surgeries to transform themselves, and asks people to be called by a different name, and works to be seen that way, I see no reason not to accept this person being a different gender in almost every way that matters. If someone puts effort into something, I might find it odd or different, but if it doesn't harm others, I see no reason not to respect that.

People who are actually trans adults generally fit in pretty well and work hard at passing. I don't see the problem with that.

Meanwhile, the option you present of conversion therapy has little to no scientific evidence for it working on adults. The evidence that does exist just says that people age out of it, not that conversion therapy works. But there is a therapy that does work, called transitioning as an adult. Trans people who do transition generally feel much happier about themselves, see for example this meta study, which found that 93% of studies found that transitioning improved people with gender dysphoria's mental health.

 

[Terthna]

There's the Trans Military 'ban' (yes I know it's not actually like that, but still sounds bad)

I don't care if it "sounds bad"; is it bad in practice? Because if not, I don't see the point in complaining about it.

Various rollbacks on transgender bathroom rights

Unfortunately, those rights ended up in conflict with the rights of cisgenders, and apparently opened the door for abuse where men who only claimed to be transgender used them to get into women-only bathrooms.

prior to Bostock, not including trans (or gay) in sex discrimination for purpose of many discrimination laws.

That's not really Trump's fault though, and it's not like he tried to stand in the way of it. Besides, Bostock didn't exactly happen under the Obama/Biden administration, which kinda puts lie to the idea that Biden would be better for Transgender rights than Trump would, at least in this case.

 

[Doomsought]

So you didn't provide any proof, you just made up the wrong definition for what transgender claims, then 'defeated it'. That's a strawman.

All trans activism runs on the premise that their beliefs are true. You have constructed a straw man to defend while I have attacked the actual attitudes that create a problem for society.

Because people have a long recognized condition that makes them believe in something that is not true does not make the thing they believe true.

The only argument that is even close to bearing weight is brainscans, which is why I bothered to bring up a study that showed that brain-scans are meaningless on the "A difference exists" level of analysis.

People who are actually trans adults generally fit in pretty well and work hard at passing. I don't see the problem with that.

That just makes them proficient liars. Transexuals pretending to be a member of the opposite sex is only acceptable if they are not pretending. That is the moat you have given up when you retreated to the bailey, so don't try to argue that they are not lieing.

Also, pay attention to paragraphs, I use them to separate different arguments.

 

[Abhorsen]

I don't care if it "sounds bad"; is it bad in practice? Because if not, I don't see the point in complaining about it.

Honestly, I don't know (I'm trying to explain another user's point here). My initial guess is that yes, it is bad, but IDK. It seems complicated.

Unfortunately, those rights ended up in conflict with the rights of cisgenders, and apparently opened the door for abuse where men who only claimed to be transgender used them to get into women-only bathrooms.

I'm assuming a self interested voter here who is trans, so it would make sense for them to vote for this.

That's not really Trump's fault though, and it's not like he tried to stand in the way of it. Besides, Bostock didn't exactly happen under the Obama/Biden administration, which kinda puts lie to the idea that Biden would be better for Transgender rights than Trump would, at least in this case.

No, the Trump Admin retracted the expansive interpretation that the Obama admin had given these rights, so that is a problem that Trump caused, if one is LGBT.

All trans activism runs on the premise that their beliefs are true. You have constructed a straw man to defend while I have attacked the actual attitudes that create a problem for society.

Thank you for demonstrating your ignorance again. You are right, there's no need for ad hominems when my opponent insults himself.

Transexuals pretending to be a member of the opposite sex is only acceptable if they are not pretending.

They aren't, though. The pretense part is wrong, as is the sex part. Gender is a number of things, including a performance, and identity, how one is perceived, etc. A fully transitioned person satisfies most of these criteria, making them a trans-woman.

 

[Doomsought]

Gender is a number of things, including a performance, and identity, how one is perceived, etc. A fully transitioned person satisfies most of these criteria, making them a trans-woman.

No. This is all sophistry. You are deceptively trying to divorce things from their cause and purpose. The cause and purpose of gender roles are the existence of biological sex and to define how this fact interacts with society respectively. The performative aspects of gender roles are largely a form of communication, to tell people what sex you are non verbally, signal your availablility and worth as a mate. By engaging in the performance of the opposite sex, you are engaging in a nonverbal lie.

 

[Abhorsen]

No. This is all sophistry. You are deceptively trying to divorce things from their cause and purpose. The cause and purpose of gender roles are the existence of biological sex and to define how this fact interacts with society respectively. The performative aspects of gender roles are largely a form of communication, to tell people what sex you are non verbally, signal your availablility and worth as a mate. By engaging in the performance of the opposite sex, you are engaging in a nonverbal lie.

And here's your first real argument. Congratulations on achieving that! It's still wrong, but baby steps here.

There's a few problems with this argument though. First, a trans woman is about as capable at being a mate as a sterile female. If a sterile female wears feminine clothing, are they lying non-verbally? They are signalling their availability as a mate, but cannot have kids.

Second, I don't really care about the original cause and purpose of gender roles. I like to think we evolved beyond that by know. The original purpose of muscles was to survive and beat up other people who you perceived as a threat, for example, but we've evolved beyond that.

Third, you are ignoring gender roles that don't fit the binary that have existed historically, like American Indian 2 spirits. You'd need to explain that as well.

Fourth, people give nonverbal lies all the time. I mentioned sterile women, but what about a breast job? make-up? flattering clothes? All of this seeks to hide bad looks, and there are other ways to hide other bad parts of yourself as well.

But I would allow that if someone starts dating someone, and doesn't tell them that they are trans, they are lying to that person, just like someone who is sterile but doesn't tell someone. But conversely, there's no need to go broadcasting either of these things unless one is in a relationship.

 

[Terthna]

And here's your first real argument. Congratulations on achieving that! It's still wrong, but baby steps here.

There's a few problems with this argument though. First, a trans woman is about as capable at being a mate as a sterile female. If a sterile female wears feminine clothing, are they lying non-verbally? They are signalling their availability as a mate, but cannot have kids.

Second, I don't really care about the original cause and purpose of gender roles. I like to think we evolved beyond that by know. The original purpose of muscles was to survive and beat up other people who you perceived as a threat, for example, but we've evolved beyond that.

Third, you are ignoring gender roles that don't fit the binary that have existed historically, like American Indian 2 spirits. You'd need to explain that as well.

Fourth, people give nonverbal lies all the time. I mentioned sterile women, but what about a breast job? make-up? flattering clothes? All of this seeks to hide bad looks, and there are other ways to hide other bad parts of yourself as well.

But I would allow that if someone starts dating someone, and doesn't tell them that they are trans, they are lying to that person, just like someone who is sterile but doesn't tell someone. But conversely, there's no need to go broadcasting either of these things unless one is in a relationship.

I don't think we've evolved at all beyond our primitive roots; we just kept piling various things on top of them and pretended they don't exist anymore, when in reality they're behind every decision we make. Also, the original purpose of muscles was motion; to "evolve beyond" that is to allow our bodies to atrophy from disuse.

 

[Abhorsen]

I don't think we've evolved at all beyond our primitive roots; we just kept piling various things on top of them and pretended they don't exist anymore, when in reality they're behind every decision we make. Also, the original purpose of muscles was motion; to "evolve beyond" that is to allow our bodies to atrophy from disuse.

I think your point about not having evolved beyond is probably correct. I'm more talking about evolving in a moral sense here.

By muscles, I really meant having a lot of them (think more "being very muscular", than having muscles), and again, evolving beyond that meaning that we mostly don't beat up others in the street because they have our stuff.

 

[LordsFire]

Abbhorsen, you've claimed that the brains of transsexuals are different than 'normal' male or female brains.

Are they the same as brains of the opposite gender though?

People seem to forget (or never have known) that the pituitary gland, is a part of/is attached to the brain, and that is what governs the development of sex characteristics and hormones.

IE, if your body has in fact developed the sexual characteristics of a man or a woman, your brain is that of a man or a woman, not that of the opposite.

There are two types of people who can be/are exceptions to this. Chimeras, people who IRL have two different sets of DNA, may have both types, and depending on what parts of the body develop based on what set of DNA, may have a mixture of characteristics. There's also what is sometimes (at least back when I read up on it) called 'intersex' or similar, which generally results from having abnormal chromosomes, extra chromosomes, or both. Both of these conditions are serious health hazards, Chimeraism usually resulting in stillbirth, and being 'intersex' usually at a minimum results in infertility, though in very mild cases can just have a very 'butch' woman or very 'bishi' guy.

In these specific cases, you can in fact have a conflict within the body over whether the person is male or female.


But the people claiming to be trans overwhelmingly do not have either of these conditions, do they? In fact, they start out with perfectly healthy bodies that are or are developing into the normal range of expression of physical characteristics for their sex. Sure, some 'trans' guys have lower than average testosterone, some 'trans' girls have higher than average testosterone, but the overwhelming majority are still within the normal range for their sex.

This does not change the fact that, before hormone and surgical treatments begin, fully healthy examples of their gender.

After treatment? They are sterile, with permanent scars on their body. At best they have partially functional facsimiles of the sexual organs of the gender identity they are trying to assume. In most cases, they have non-functional facsimiles. And this is if they undergo these treatments as adults.

If they do so as children, permanent skeletal problems are not uncommon, cancer risks rise substantially, and they will likely suffer permanent lose of growth as well.

The functionality and health of their bodies has been permanently decreased. They can never recover what has been lost.

And above all of this, suicide rates amongst transgender people have not been observed to drop post-transition.

If an adult wants to do strange things to their own body, that's their own business. I'll try to persuade them it's not healthy, but it's their body. Pushing this stuff on children is dangerous, and can and will have permanent consequences for the rest of their entire lives.

 

[Abhorsen]

If an adult wants to do strange things to their own body, that's their own business. I'll try to persuade them it's not healthy, but it's their body. Pushing this stuff on children is dangerous, and can and will have permanent consequences for the rest of their entire lives.

I'll start by saying I agree with this entirely. It's about choice, and only adults can consent to this.

And above all of this, suicide rates amongst transgender people have not been observed to drop post-transition.

Sure, but other indicators of mental health do increase: See this metastudy for examples, but it said that 93% of studies said that transitioning had a positive outcome. Also, rating things solely by suicide rates is not what I would use. Note that anti-depressants themselves can increase the chances of someone committing suicide. One theory for why this is is that depressed people on antidepressants quickly get more motivated, but that motivation includes suicide (source for talk about depression here). I could see a similar explanation explaining trans suicide. The study that backs this in the case of depression found that most suicides happened shortly after the patient began taking the drugs. I'd be interested to discover if the suicide rate for trans people spiked shortly after a major transition, then went down to below prior levels, or if it had no effect, and the percentage was just flat.

From listening to some trans people talk about their lives, it seems that some think that transitioning will fix everything, and it doesn't. It fixes exactly one thing, and then only partially. This sudden let down might also have to do with the static suicide rate, and more counseling might fix this.

I also expect suicide rates among trans people to go up soon, because of trans teens growing out of it (which is very common) after being on hormones (which is very not common).

Are they the same as brains of the opposite gender though?

Yes, actually. I should have probably made that clearer. Here's a source on that:

Understanding Gender Identity

There’s so much diversity in how we identify ourselves and the way we express love for one another. Understanding gender identity can only aid us in our journey to better know ourselves, and others.

health.clevelandclinic.org

And another (sorry for adding the stuff piecemeal, I accidentally posted early)

Structural Brain Differences for Transgender People

A new study reveals that transgender people have variations in the size or volume of certain brain areas. Rese

psychcentral.com