History What are some of your most contraversial takes on history?

Winston Bush

Well-known member
History is an ever evolving and contraversial subject as it seeks to understand the past and not just to chronicle events but to explain as well.
With that said what are some of your more “Contraversial” takes on history?
 

The Mandarin

Claim, Assert, Dominate.
Fascism in Latin America, ultimately saved Latin America. Imperial Japan surviving world war two with its East Asian colonies intact and bolstered by a UN presence would have ultimately been much better for the world. The US not going its separate ways before the First American Civil War, probably caused the social decay and grotesque Centralization Burgers are currently afflicted by.
 
The Holy Roman Empire was Holy, was (technically) Roman, and was (technically) an Empire.

Hear me out. Starting with the most troubling cause, that "Roman" bit, let me go into some detail. The Catholic church was an organization that originated in the roman empire. After the roman empire split into the Eastern (Byzantine) and western sides, and the western half fell, the catholic church, being the central religious institution of the western roman empire at the time, was really all that was left of it. With the pope being the closest equivalent to a leader that this remnant of the original roman empire had. The pope also had control over the city of rome, making him, by default, the leader of what was once "Rome". Charlamagne, a the king that founded the carolingian empire, (Precursor to the HRE) was personally given the title of "Roman Emperor" by the pope, who, based on the fact that said pope owned Rome, and had control of a major "Roman" institution, would have a technical authority to grant such a title. As such, we can at least establish that the HRE was ruled by "Roman" emperors, thus making it roman.

Secondly, "Holy". This is an easy one. The catholic church was incredibly influential during this time period. Basically, if they said a place was holy, it for all intents and purposes was. The pope declaring an empire to be holy was, in that time period, the exact same thing as it being holy. Plus, even if you don't buy that, with holiness being a very subjective thing, variable depending on what your religious beliefs are, even if the HRE isn't holy to you, it probably was to someone at some point, which at least in my opinion justifies the name.

Finally, empire. Technically, the HRE was a confederation of kingdoms, and not a imperial dictatorship. However, we must note that the word Empire doesn't always have to refer to the same sort of thing we saw in the original Roman Empire. In the modern day and in the past, the U.S was often referred to as an empire for its imperialist tendencies and occasional covert annexation of islands. The word empire has also been used to describe corporate enterprises as well, but getting passed mere slang terms, let's look at the definition of the word itself.

"Empire: A political unit having an extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority."

Well, the HRE was one of the largest nations of europe in the days following the fall of the western roman empire, and, though it was a confederacy, all of the local monarchs did answer to the Holy Roman Emperor, so, in that case, there was a supreme authority.

I rest my case, your honor.
 

absenceofmalice

Well-known member
Temporarily Banned
Fascism in Latin America, ultimately saved Latin America. Imperial Japan surviving world war two with its East Asian colonies intact and bolstered by a UN presence would have ultimately been much better for the world. The US not going its separate ways before the First American Civil War, probably caused the social decay and grotesque Centralization Burgers are currently afflicted by.
Being nuked conquered and americanized was the best thing that happened to Japan since it's history began and makes you wonder who else could have benefited from such treatment.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Even though I often argue why we didn't, McArthur should have been allowed to go into China and also Nuke them.
Also with Patton and his view on USSR.

THough small, the French Resistence was still a decently powerful force helping during the Normandy campaign,and should not be called surrender monkeys.

Not all NAZIs were bad, and that the normal military could not disagree with Hitler. They had pride in their nation, not the party leading it.
 

Buba

A total creep
I wonder about the "going with Hitler" option for Poland in 1939.
The ruling Junta knew - from the source - that the Entente was incapable of launching any sizeable military strike against Germany for several weeks from start of mobilisation, and unprepared for war in general until mid 1940 if not 1941.
Even stalling as to buy time until spring 1940 would/might had been worthwhile.
Or the Junta could had accepted vassalage to somebody as a hard fact, due to geography and economy - instead of dwelling on their Poland Stronk, Can Into Space unicorn infested rainbow - and throw the Entente under the German bus, mirroring the Entente's attempts to throw Poland under the Soviet bus ...
 
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Buba

A total creep
Why do you think so?
Are we to discuss our views - or simply present them? I understood the latter ... and held my peace ...
I'm afraid that once we start tearing into one another begin to argue our positions then such posts will inundate the thread, making it difficult/off-putting to find posts which present uncommon views.
 

Winston Bush

Well-known member
@Aldarion do you have anymore “Spicy” takes?
My hot take:
The German Invasion of The Union Of Soviet Socialist Republics was doomed from the start due to the sheer size of the USSR,the very large Russian population,the strained German logistics,and the fact that on top of invading Russia Germany was also fighting against a great power with colonies all over the world.
 
Continuing on this topic of the roman empire. While I do believe the HRE checks all the boxes, I don't deem it the true successor-state of the roman empire, nor the final vestige of the roman government, and no, I don't deem the Byzantines to be that either. No. The true and final successor to the Roman Empire was the Empire of Trebizond. It lasted for about two hundred years (Up to the late 1400s) after the fall of constantinople. My controversial take here is that the term "Fall of Rome" should be disposed of entirely since the Roman Empire only truly fell right around when the New World was discovered. It should really be something more like "That time Rome got kicked in the nuts and took a while to get back on its feet."
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
@Aldarion do you have anymore “Spicy” takes?
My hot take:
The German Invasion of The Union Of Soviet Socialist Republics was doomed from the start due to the sheer size of the USSR,the very large Russian population,the strained German logistics,and the fact that on top of invading Russia Germany was also fighting against a great power with colonies all over the world.

Basically that Entente should have mounted an equivalent of "Operation Unthinkable" in 1918. / 1919., and that doing so might well have prevented the Second World War, or at least made it much less destructive.

BTW., maybe we could have a second thread for discussion? Not sure whether it is a smart idea, but it might stop the derails.
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
Obozny
My hot take:
The German Invasion of The Union Of Soviet Socialist Republics was doomed from the start due to the sheer size of the USSR,the very large Russian population,the strained German logistics,and the fact that on top of invading Russia Germany was also fighting against a great power with colonies all over the world.

Is that actually a controversial opinion? To my knowledge most mainstream historians are of the opinion that operation barbarossa was a doomed effort.
 

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