What do you think makes a good villain?

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Hmm, well as a guess, Coyote 1.0 was intended to work closely with the Pack. If he went flying when they couldn't he would be doing his own thing instead of hanging around and manipulating them.

Also, effectively Coyote's main objective was complete the second Fox said she was serving her time and saved the guardswoman. Everything after that was just Xanatos trying to get a bit of gravy on top and go for a high score. If he didn't need flight to accomplish stage 1, he didn't need flight at all.
 

ParadiseLost

Well-known member
To be honest, we're looking at this as a movie within a movie sort of situation, and movies have to cut a lot of story corners to fit within a very limited window (if a movie is longer than two hours, they get snubbed by movie theaters in the US). Lord of the Rings? Those movies are the exception to the rule. Period.

Literally all of the Top 10 highest grossing movies of all time are over 2 hours, excluding The Lion King, a kids movie.

Many of them are substantially over two hours.

Kids movies tend to not be long for obvious reasons (kids have shorter attention spans, and almost no kid or parent wants to spend 3 hours in a kids movie).
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
So, as a more recent example of how not to do a villain, let's talk about the new rendition of Zurg in the new Lightyear film.

Spoilers warning, of course.



Seriously, how do you fuck up Zurg? He is one of the most bitch basic antagonist archetypes in history: that of the warlord. He is a robot overlord who wants to rule the universe and will merrily step on everyone who gets in his way, not an old man who wants to "finish the mission." All they had to do was give him a little bit of a comedic flair, and have him effectively command military forces whilst dispatching a few named characters. That and give him his cape. It feels like they tried to over complicate a simple but effective (and imposing as hell) archetype of villain and made a complete mess in the process.

It's a shame really, as aesthetically they had a lot to work with. Zurg's theme is an absolute banger as well.

To be honest, we're looking at this as a movie within a movie sort of situation, and movies have to cut a lot of story corners to fit within a very limited window (if a movie is longer than two hours, they get snubbed by movie theaters in the US). Lord of the Rings? Those movies are the exception to the rule. Period.

In addition, it does make some narrative sense that this version of Zurg is that mirror. Problem is, having mirror villains is far harder than it looks.
Zurg's lack of characterization could've actually worked if they deliberately played it up for horror, that in-universe, nobody knows what the fuck he actually is or wants. Just that one day, a few months after Buzz leaves on his time dilated journey to the future, an enormous alien spaceship shows up in orbit and hails the colony demanding they turn over the phlebotinum crystal (which they can't do, Buzz has it) or it'll be taken by force, then invading with a nearly invincible robot army. All requests for further explanations of why they want the crystal, what they are, how they knew about the crystal, under what justification they think they can take it, attempts at negotiation, recognition of the historic occasion of first contact with an alien intelligence, pleas for mercy, etc, are ignored. The colonists can't win, the closest they can come is getting the crystal into their ship and making a time dilated FTL run for it once Buzz returns, with the end credits being their popping out of hyperspace above the planet of the trinocular green claw-worshipers. Then secretly read the fansites and uncredited rip off the best explanation they come up with for the sequel when you actually have to start answering questions.

Agreeing Zurg needs a more alien design/to keep the cape. Possibly give him his robes, but with biological or mechanical tentacles underneath rather than legs?
 
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Lord Sovereign

Well-known member
Agreeing Zurg needs a more alien design/to keep the cape. Possibly give him his robes, but with biological or mechanical tentacles underneath rather than legs?

I actually rather like Zurg having legs. It gives him this really hulking and imposing physique which is fitting for a galactic conqueror who rules via brute force and terror (indeed, the scary thing would be that Buzz, ergo star command, ergo Earth, has caught his attention now. Perhaps via having a whole load of other aliens under his command, you could hint that Zurg's empire is huge). But then again, a more alien "what the hell is he and what does he want" approach would have been far superior to what we got.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Hmm, well as a guess, Coyote 1.0 was intended to work closely with the Pack. If he went flying when they couldn't he would be doing his own thing instead of hanging around and manipulating them.

Also, effectively Coyote's main objective was complete the second Fox said she was serving her time and saved the guardswoman. Everything after that was just Xanatos trying to get a bit of gravy on top and go for a high score. If he didn't need flight to accomplish stage 1, he didn't need flight at all.

Interesting analysis.

BTW, another thing that I look for in villains is that they be physically attractive. Here are some examples:

Geraldine Husk:

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Lady Luna:

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Natalie Valentine:

dbjyk8n-d22be9c4-a26f-4cb0-9851-78ea6db1b7d1.gif


Carla Wong:

d8ci4vd-6419614c-ec81-4492-bdc9-32450c501b7f.png


Electronique:

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Shego:

5864001-shegocrocodile.gif
 

Lord Sovereign

Well-known member
Alright then, here's an example of how to do a villain right.

The Daleks are a race of mutated octopuses riding around in pepper pot tanks. They constantly shriek "Exterminate" and have embarked on a campaign of universal genocide.

About as far from intimidating as you can get, right?

Wrong.



It's all about the execution, my guys.
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
...a galactic conqueror who rules via brute force and terror (indeed, the scary thing would be that Buzz, ergo star command, ergo Earth, has caught his attention now. Perhaps via having a whole load of other aliens under his command, you could hint that Zurg's empire is huge). But then again, a more alien "what the hell is he and what does he want" approach would have been far superior to what we got.
Ooh, bonus idea, instead of Buzz accidentally shipwrecking the Turnip, it was a STL cryoship which had finally arrived at its destination colony world only to discover sol was no longer transmitting anything, so the colonists tried to invent FTL to go back and see what'd happened. Then, as you said, Zurg's crew was composed of multiple radically different alien species whose only similar traits were the same uniforms, except that while boarding Zurg's ship, Buzz and his team encountered humans, uniformed as and fighting together against them alongside said alien crew.
 

Lord Sovereign

Well-known member
Well, Lord Sovereign has more ideas as to what makes a good villain.

The traditional Dark Lord is often viewed as cliche and boring, when he is in fact one of the most effective villain archetypes of them all. When it comes to exuding power, control, and menace, no one really does better.

To the hero, when they and all that they love are about to be crushed into a bloody smear, it doesn't matter that these men are uncomplicated or "one dimensional."
 
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