What is the worst alternate history you’ve ever read? (Pre-1900)

ParadiseLost

Well-known member
Well that's great and all, but this genre has rules and they broke every single one of them. So much so they could have simply made it a fantasy, changed nothing in the grand scheme of things, and avoided all this mess.

Code Geass is not even really alt history, any more than say, Harry Potter is.

Alt history is meant to be a story that actually shows history in a way it could have alternatively gone, which is not the intent of Code Geass in any way.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
Code Geass is not even really alt history, any more than say, Harry Potter is.

Alt history is meant to be a story that actually shows history in a way it could have alternatively gone, which is not the intent of Code Geass in any way.

Which feeds into my point that they'd have been better off going down the fantasy road, if they won't going to put in the proper effort. Alt history has rules, and Code Geass broke most of them.
 

stevep

Well-known member
In my honest opinion, all "Nazi Germany win WW2 TLs" with a POD during WW2 or right at the start of WW2 are incredibly unrealistic.

Nazi Germany sealed their fate when they declared war on Poland in 1939. The war itself was just a culmination of all their (the Nazi's) absolutely idiotic decisions, internal conflict, and economic mismanagement/corruption.

The only way for Nazi Germany to win WW2 while still staying Nazi is through major changes in history before WW2, preferably at the end of WW1. These changes will not impact the course of WW1, but they'll have a very big effect on the Weimar Republic and the (slightly earlier~1931) ascension of the Nazi Party.

For example (this is part of my book "Reich Turbulent" in case anyone's wondering): The German Naval Command orders the High Seas Fleet and other Kaiserliche Marine warships and subs to be scuttled after a more violent Kiel Mutiny, due to fears that communists sailors might seize the ships and use them to pull an "Aurora" or "Potemkin". This has little effect on WW1, but this becomes a major boon for the Kriegsmarine (and Germany in general) during the Nazi era.

The Kriegsmarine and Nazi Germany in general suffered from a lack of military grade raw materials. And because the price of scrap metal is so low after WW1, no one is going to salvage those ships because it wouldn't be worth the cost. Therefore, those ships will remain there until the Nazi era, where they will then be salvaged for their steel (the guns from the ships could be taken off and turned into railway guns or heavy artillery, like what the Germans did to SMS Konigsberg in Africa). All that steel will alleviate Nazi Germany's military grade raw materials shortage to a significant degree (for at least 5 years) and allow them to construct much more military equipment than there were capable of in OTL.

Agree with the basis issue of a Nazi victory, especially with a believable POD after Sept 39. That's so unbalanced against them even if they still pull off the shock victory over France and the Lowland countries.

Not sure that that steel would be that useful as:
a) Its likely the wreaks would be scrapped earlier if only because their probably impeding use of the ports and/or local fishing interests. Plus the 20's were not a good time for Germany so could easily see the scrap being attractive well before then.
b) While if they did stay as wreaks until the early-mid 30's I'm not sure the amount of steel would be that big an impact, at least if you have something like OTL Nazi rearmament mania. Plus after a decade under water what state would the guns be in? Suspect they would not be very easily to reconstruct/repair after such a time.
c) Also its not just steel that Nazi Germany was desperately short of. Oil, rubber, copper, aluminium etc were also limiting factors among others.
 

BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
Not sure that that steel would be that useful as:
a) Its likely the wreaks would be scrapped earlier if only because their probably impeding use of the ports and/or local fishing interests. Plus the 20's were not a good time for Germany so could easily see the scrap being attractive well before then.
Admiral Scheer wouldn't be stupid enough to have them scuttled in port. He'd order them scuttled in water deep enough to render their machinery useless, thus destroying their value as warships and denying the Entente any war prizes. Not in a harbor.

The thing with Germany in the 1920s, it was an inflation crisis. And combined with the end of WW1, means the value of steel takes a massive nosedive worldwide. The cost of salvage will outweigh the price of scrap for quite a while.

b) While if they did stay as wreaks until the early-mid 30's I'm not sure the amount of steel would be that big an impact, at least if you have something like OTL Nazi rearmament mania. Plus after a decade under water what state would the guns be in? Suspect they would not be very easily to reconstruct/repair after such a time.
The guns would be salvaged soon after, before the Versailles treaty is finalized. Otherwise they're useless.

The steel from those wrecks are processed steel, not raw ore. And each ships can probably yield as much as 90% of their tonnage in scrap metal. Take a 25,000 ton battleships. That's 22,500 tons of scrap metal right there. And the armor plate can be recycled into armor plates for Panzers while the other metal can be used for building new U-boats.

c) Also its not just steel that Nazi Germany was desperately short of. Oil, rubber, copper, aluminium etc were also limiting factors among others.
They were desperately short.
To the point Hitler planned for Kriegsmarine capital ship projects to be scrapped after the sinking of KMS Bismarck so the steel could be used to make tanks for the Eastern Front.
They were also short of other materials, though that wasn't really the point of my statement.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Admiral Scheer wouldn't be stupid enough to have them scuttled in port. He'd order them scuttled in water deep enough to render their machinery useless, thus destroying their value as warships and denying the Entente any war prizes. Not in a harbor.

The thing with Germany in the 1920s, it was an inflation crisis. And combined with the end of WW1, means the value of steel takes a massive nosedive worldwide. The cost of salvage will outweigh the price of scrap for quite a while.

It was in an inflationary crisis for a period of the 20's, when the government was wreaking the currency to avoid paying reparations but for most of the decade its economy wasn't too bad, albeit dependent on loans from the US.

If their scuttled in water deep enough to render machinery useless then retrieving the basic hull structure would be costly and the guns are likely to be in a bad way as well.

The guns would be salvaged soon after, before the Versailles treaty is finalized. Otherwise they're useless.

The steel from those wrecks are processed steel, not raw ore. And each ships can probably yield as much as 90% of their tonnage in scrap metal. Take a 25,000 ton battleships. That's 22,500 tons of scrap metal right there. And the armor plate can be recycled into armor plates for Panzers while the other metal can be used for building new U-boats.

Such an early retrieval is likely to prompt action by the powers at Versailles to remove those guns - or whatever is left of them - from German control as its an obvious potential breach of the terms of the treaty.

Correct such steel is not ore but after several years under water some reprocessing would be required and its still a small amount compared to the total German output. The basic problem from 1933 onward was the extreme nature of the rearmament programme, consuming resources needed for foreign trade or civil comsumption coupled with the erratic and convoluted nature of the Nazi regime. Have something half-way sensible even if still heavily revanchist and militaristic and you probably get a markedly slower rate of rearmament.


They were desperately short.
To the point Hitler planned for Kriegsmarine capital ship projects to be scrapped after the sinking of KMS Bismarck so the steel could be used to make tanks for the Eastern Front.
They were also short of other materials, though that wasn't really the point of my statement.

You misread what I said. I didn't say they weren't short of steel. I said that was far from the only thing they were short of. Which also greatly affected the military build up.

By the time the Bismarck was sunk the writing was already on the wall, although I doubt that Hitler was ordering other capital ships scrapped for armour for the eastern front. At that date the invasion of the Soviet Union hadn't started and both Hitler and most of the generals - as well as many others around the world - were expecting a Soviet collapse so weren't expecting a great need for additional massive increase in tank production.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Germany winning WWII is actually fairly easy and straight forward, so I don't understand why it's often considered so impossible. I personally lay the blame on YouTube amateur historians, who the actual historians have been butting up against in recent years for the former's bad takes. The central question of the "how" is defined by the status of the USSR in the conflict. Mark Stoler's Allies and Adversaries: The Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Grand Alliance, and U.S. Strategy in World War II reveals the broader planning of the JCS as it concerns the war and situational contingencies therein. From Page 72:

Eisenhower and his subordinates were far from alone or original in perceiving the overriding importance of continued Soviet participation in the war. As previously noted, in the summer and fall of 1941 Roosevelt and army planners had begun to recognize that victory over Germany might not be possible unless the Red Army continued to tie down the bulk of the Wehrmacht, and they consequently had made assistance to Russia a focal point of their global strategy. The JB had forcefully reiterated this conclusion by informing Roosevelt on December 21 that ‘‘Russia alone possesses the manpower potentially able to defeat Germany in Europe.’’ 26 The Soviets’ late 1941 success in stopping the German advance on Moscow and launching a counteroffensive, occurring at a time when Axis forces were everywhere else successful, further reinforced this belief. As a result virtually all Allied planning papers in late 1941– early 1942 stressed the critical importance of aiding the Russians so that they could survive a renewed German onslaught. Roosevelt agreed. ‘‘Nothing would be worse than to have the Russians collapse,’’ he told Treasury secretary Henry Morgenthau on March 11. ‘‘I would rather lose New Zealand, Australia, or anything else than have the Russians collapse.’’ Five days earlier the JUSSC had bluntly stated that ‘‘Russia must be supported now by every possible means’’ because the absence of a Russian front would postpone ‘‘indefinitely’’ the end of the war.27 And as army planners realized, such postponement would only increase public and naval pressure to turn away completely from the indecisive European theater in favor of the Pacific.​

Page 80:

Marshall’s reasoning was based not only on Eisenhower’s February–March presentations but also on military and political events since then which had heavily reinforced the OPD’s original conclusions. Once again the focal point was the Soviet Union. ‘‘The retention of Russia in the war as an active participant is vital to Allied victory,’’ now acting chief of staff McNarney had emphasized on April 12; if German armies were allowed to turn west, ‘‘any opportunity for a successful offensive against the European Axis would be virtually eliminated.’’ 56 In mid June the staff again warned that Russian collapse would necessitate a strategic reassessment, ‘‘possibly with the result of directing our main effort to the Pacific rather than the Atlantic.’’ 57​

Page 93:

As early as April–May, OPD, g-2, and the joint committees had begun to explore the appropriate response should this ‘‘desperate situation’’ result in a Soviet collapse, and in early August the JUSSC completed and forwarded to the JPS a massive study of such a contingency. This study indicated that Russian collapse would be a ‘‘catastrophe’’ of such magnitude as to put the United States in a ‘‘desperate’’ situation too, one in which it ‘‘would be forced to consider courses of action which would primarily benefit the United States rather than the United Nations.’’
Indeed, it might be the only remaining major member of the United Nations, because the British Commonwealth might collapse and the British public react to Soviet defeat by overthrowing Churchill and agreeing to a negotiated peace that would leave Hitler in control of Eurasia. A revival of isolationism and an ‘‘increase in defeatism’’ within the country were also possible in this scenario. Even without British withdrawal, however, the only sound U.S. response to a Soviet collapse would be to ‘‘adopt the strategic defensive in the European Theater of War and to conduct the strategic offensive in the Japanese theater.’’ On August 19 the JPS the great strategic debate 93 approved this report, forwarded it to the Joint Chiefs as JCS 85, and ordered the preparation of a strategic plan for the defeat of Japan.40​

Concurrent to these concerns, the following documents were prepared:

"Conditions under Which an Armistice Might Be Negotiated between the United Nations and the European Powers", on June 11, 1942 by Maj. Gen. George V. Strong (S Document 22)

Col. Nevins, ‘‘Courses of Action Open to the United States in the Event the Prospective 1942 German Offensive Forces Russia to Capitulate,’’ memo, Apr. 1942, and unsigned memo to Nevins, Apr. 25, 1942, Wedemeyer Papers, box 76, folder 2, HI

With the removal of the Russian Front, the conclusion by American planners was the need to shift from the Europe First to Pacific First strategy at the minimum, drawing down forces in the Atlantic purely to those sufficient to safe guard the United Kingdom from a German invasion. With the benefit of hindsight we know this wasn't a realistic concern in terms of invasion, but the JCS was concerned with such given they didn't have access to German documents like we do. In the first document, written by Maj. Gen. Strong, it was recommended negotiations be opened to convene an armistice, as it was not thought possible to defeat the Germans without the Red Army tying down large elements of it.

What about the American public? See American Popular Opinion and the War Against Germany: The Issue of Negotiated Peace, 1942 by Richard W. Steele,The Journal of American History , Dec., 1978, Vol. 65, No. 3 (Dec., 1978), pp. 704-723:

The coming of war to America changed but did not destroy the peace issue. Many of those who had stubbornly resisted involvement now hoped to terminate it as quickly as possible, and apparently only a lack of organization significantly differentiated sentiment for a negotiated peace from the isolationism of 1941. Moreover, as the President quickly learned, the leadership for an effective negotiated peace movement seemed likely to emerge from the die-hard remnants of the America First Committee, particularly in the person of the isolationist national hero, Charles A. Lindbergh.​
America First officially disbanded in February, and many of its officials announced their support for the war effort. Nevertheless, the activities of some members, including Lindbergh, remained the subject of government interest and concern. In mid-February Federal Bureau of Investigation Director J. Edgar Hoover informed the President that former members of the Committee had "gone underground" and were "biding their time," awaiting the opportunity to emerge again as a "political force." Hoover cited as evidence a mid-December meeting at which the renowned flyer had allegedly held forth on the yellow and Bolshevik menaces, on the foolishness of the current war in Europe, and on what might be done to reverse American policy.
According to Hoover's informant, Lindbergh declared that "when the American people, by reason of the lists of the missing and the statements of war losses, realize that they have been betrayed by the British and the Administration," the Committee should be ready to "advocate a negotiated peace." Hoover also noted that he had obtained information from other sources to the effect that the America Firsters had a "secret mailing list of 8,476,000"; that lately a "great many individuals among foreign speaking groups have been circularized"; and that the leaders of the underground organization planned to hold a "series of house parties . .. to keep alive contacts."34​

Further:

Nevertheless, the President could not rest easy, for the fate of the extremists notwithstanding, he had reason to ponder the possibility that his more respectable political enemies might use the peace issue to unsettle and embarrass the administration. In April OFF warned that in the fall congressional campaigns "subversion will probably be intermingled with politics" as both administration opponents and Nazi propagandists seek to "promote defeatism or play upon the war weariness of the people." Fleshing out this prediction was a report informing the President that three leading isolationist Republicans, Congressman Joe Martin, former Congressman Bruce Barton, and publisher Roy Howard, had "just held a secret meeting in far off Tucson," leading to speculation that they were planning an "isolationist attack" against administration war policies. A more explicit warning came to Roosevelt from a friend, New Dealer Gardiner Jackson, who told him in the fall of 1942 that the business interests behind the presidential candidacy of Thomas E. Dewey were working hard for a negotiated peace and had taken a recent conciliatory speech by Hitler as the "opening gun of the drive to call the war off. . . ." The problem raised by these reports (if true) was, as OFF warned, that even if the agitation of the peace issue could not force the administration into negotiations, it could do "much damage" by strengthening "the hand of those in Congress whose main goal is the harassment and obstruction of the President."37
 
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History Learner

Well-known member
While its not really that bad, a personal pet peeve of mine is where in a monarchical tl the monarchy always ends up abolished, or relegated to a ceremonial position every time it reaches the 20th century. While this isn't an implausible political development, its a bit of a tired trope that has overstayed its welcome. The current UK parliamentary system for example was as a result of centuries of political developments over time. A slight butterfly could easily alter this. One such butterfly could be that the male line of the house of Hannover continues which allows for the monarch's role to be emphasized in HER majesty's government.

I think this ties into a general gripe of mine, in that it seems most authors assume our current Liberal (I use the term in the general sense, not the American context) world order was inevitable with its associated political, economic and culture effects. Even just a century or so ago, it wasn't a sure thing.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
What about the American public? See American Popular Opinion and the War Against Germany: The Issue of Negotiated Peace, 1942 by Richard W. Steele,The Journal of American History , Dec., 1978, Vol. 65, No. 3 (Dec., 1978), pp. 704-723:

The coming of war to America changed but did not destroy the peace issue. Many of those who had stubbornly resisted involvement now hoped to terminate it as quickly as possible, and apparently only a lack of organization significantly differentiated sentiment for a negotiated peace from the isolationism of 1941. Moreover, as the President quickly learned, the leadership for an effective negotiated peace movement seemed likely to emerge from the die-hard remnants of the America First Committee, particularly in the person of the isolationist national hero, Charles A. Lindbergh.​
America First officially disbanded in February, and many of its officials announced their support for the war effort. Nevertheless, the activities of some members, including Lindbergh, remained the subject of government interest and concern. In mid-February Federal Bureau of Investigation Director J. Edgar Hoover informed the President that former members of the Committee had "gone underground" and were "biding their time," awaiting the opportunity to emerge again as a "political force." Hoover cited as evidence a mid-December meeting at which the renowned flyer had allegedly held forth on the yellow and Bolshevik menaces, on the foolishness of the current war in Europe, and on what might be done to reverse American policy.
According to Hoover's informant, Lindbergh declared that "when the American people, by reason of the lists of the missing and the statements of war losses, realize that they have been betrayed by the British and the Administration," the Committee should be ready to "advocate a negotiated peace." Hoover also noted that he had obtained information from other sources to the effect that the America Firsters had a "secret mailing list of 8,476,000"; that lately a "great many individuals among foreign speaking groups have been circularized"; and that the leaders of the underground organization planned to hold a "series of house parties . .. to keep alive contacts."34​

Only a tiny minority of Americans were in favor of either siding with Germany or staying out of the war. The fact that *one* notable figure was among them does not make them any more relevant.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Only a tiny minority of Americans were in favor of either siding with Germany or staying out of the war. The fact that *one* notable figure was among them does not make them any more relevant.

I agree few-if any-wanted to directly side with Germany but such wasn't my argument. Rather, my position is that the overwhelming evidence is that the vast majority of Americans weren't interested in the European War and such could translate into a peace movement; it's also, in a way, academic because the overwhelming documentation shows the American Political-Military establishment was already in favor of conducting such a peace should the Germans conquer the USSR.

As for the notion only a few wanted to stay out of the war, we need to disabuse that notion because it is the reverse and decisively so, according to Gallup polling:

NOVEMBER 22

EUROPEAN WAR

Interviewing Date 11/7-12/41

Survey #252-K Question #11

It has been suggested that Congress pass a resolution declaring that a state of war exists between the United States and Germany. Would you favor or oppose such a resolution at this time?

Favor.............................. 26%

Oppose.........................63%

No opinion......................... 1%

Yes, less than a month from Pearl Harbor and as the Germans advanced on Moscow nearly two thirds of Americans were still opposed to entry into the conflict despite the Reuben James and other events directly resulting in American casualties.
 
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Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
I think this ties into a general gripe of mine, in that it seems most authors assume our current Liberal (I use the term in the general sense, not the American context) world order was inevitable with its associated political, economic and culture effects. Even just a century or so ago, it wasn't a sure thing.

Something as simple as World War One ending quickly is enough to smother the Liberal order in its cradle. Given how much of a pig's ear has been made of it since then, one wonders whether or not Germany winning in 1914 would have been for the better.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Germany winning WWII is actually fairly easy and straight forward, so I don't understand why it's often considered so impossible. I personally lay the blame on YouTube amateur historians, who the actual historians have been butting up against in recent years for the former's bad takes. The central question of the "how" is defined by the status of the USSR in the conflict. Mark Stoler's Allies and Adversaries: The Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Grand Alliance, and U.S. Strategy in World War II reveals the broader planning of the JCS as it concerns the war and situational contingencies therein. From Page 72:

Eisenhower and his subordinates were far from alone or original in perceiving the overriding importance of continued Soviet participation in the war. As previously noted, in the summer and fall of 1941 Roosevelt and army planners had begun to recognize that victory over Germany might not be possible unless the Red Army continued to tie down the bulk of the Wehrmacht, and they consequently had made assistance to Russia a focal point of their global strategy. The JB had forcefully reiterated this conclusion by informing Roosevelt on December 21 that ‘‘Russia alone possesses the manpower potentially able to defeat Germany in Europe.’’ 26 The Soviets’ late 1941 success in stopping the German advance on Moscow and launching a counteroffensive, occurring at a time when Axis forces were everywhere else successful, further reinforced this belief. As a result virtually all Allied planning papers in late 1941– early 1942 stressed the critical importance of aiding the Russians so that they could survive a renewed German onslaught. Roosevelt agreed. ‘‘Nothing would be worse than to have the Russians collapse,’’ he told Treasury secretary Henry Morgenthau on March 11. ‘‘I would rather lose New Zealand, Australia, or anything else than have the Russians collapse.’’ Five days earlier the JUSSC had bluntly stated that ‘‘Russia must be supported now by every possible means’’ because the absence of a Russian front would postpone ‘‘indefinitely’’ the end of the war.27 And as army planners realized, such postponement would only increase public and naval pressure to turn away completely from the indecisive European theater in favor of the Pacific.​

Page 80:

Marshall’s reasoning was based not only on Eisenhower’s February–March presentations but also on military and political events since then which had heavily reinforced the OPD’s original conclusions. Once again the focal point was the Soviet Union. ‘‘The retention of Russia in the war as an active participant is vital to Allied victory,’’ now acting chief of staff McNarney had emphasized on April 12; if German armies were allowed to turn west, ‘‘any opportunity for a successful offensive against the European Axis would be virtually eliminated.’’ 56 In mid June the staff again warned that Russian collapse would necessitate a strategic reassessment, ‘‘possibly with the result of directing our main effort to the Pacific rather than the Atlantic.’’ 57​

Page 93:

As early as April–May, OPD, g-2, and the joint committees had begun to explore the appropriate response should this ‘‘desperate situation’’ result in a Soviet collapse, and in early August the JUSSC completed and forwarded to the JPS a massive study of such a contingency. This study indicated that Russian collapse would be a ‘‘catastrophe’’ of such magnitude as to put the United States in a ‘‘desperate’’ situation too, one in which it ‘‘would be forced to consider courses of action which would primarily benefit the United States rather than the United Nations.’’
Indeed, it might be the only remaining major member of the United Nations, because the British Commonwealth might collapse and the British public react to Soviet defeat by overthrowing Churchill and agreeing to a negotiated peace that would leave Hitler in control of Eurasia. A revival of isolationism and an ‘‘increase in defeatism’’ within the country were also possible in this scenario. Even without British withdrawal, however, the only sound U.S. response to a Soviet collapse would be to ‘‘adopt the strategic defensive in the European Theater of War and to conduct the strategic offensive in the Japanese theater.’’ On August 19 the JPS the great strategic debate 93 approved this report, forwarded it to the Joint Chiefs as JCS 85, and ordered the preparation of a strategic plan for the defeat of Japan.40​

Concurrent to these concerns, the following documents were prepared:

"Conditions under Which an Armistice Might Be Negotiated between the United Nations and the European Powers", on June 11, 1942 by Maj. Gen. George V. Strong (S Document 22)

Col. Nevins, ‘‘Courses of Action Open to the United States in the Event the Prospective 1942 German Offensive Forces Russia to Capitulate,’’ memo, Apr. 1942, and unsigned memo to Nevins, Apr. 25, 1942, Wedemeyer Papers, box 76, folder 2, HI

With the removal of the Russian Front, the conclusion by American planners was the need to shift from the Europe First to Pacific First strategy at the minimum, drawing down forces in the Atlantic purely to those sufficient to safe guard the United Kingdom from a German invasion. With the benefit of hindsight we know this wasn't a realistic concern in terms of invasion, but the JCS was concerned with such given they didn't have access to German documents like we do. In the first document, written by Maj. Gen. Strong, it was recommended negotiations be opened to convene an armistice, as it was not thought possible to defeat the Germans without the Red Army tying down large elements of it.

What about the American public? See American Popular Opinion and the War Against Germany: The Issue of Negotiated Peace, 1942 by Richard W. Steele,The Journal of American History , Dec., 1978, Vol. 65, No. 3 (Dec., 1978), pp. 704-723:

The coming of war to America changed but did not destroy the peace issue. Many of those who had stubbornly resisted involvement now hoped to terminate it as quickly as possible, and apparently only a lack of organization significantly differentiated sentiment for a negotiated peace from the isolationism of 1941. Moreover, as the President quickly learned, the leadership for an effective negotiated peace movement seemed likely to emerge from the die-hard remnants of the America First Committee, particularly in the person of the isolationist national hero, Charles A. Lindbergh.​
America First officially disbanded in February, and many of its officials announced their support for the war effort. Nevertheless, the activities of some members, including Lindbergh, remained the subject of government interest and concern. In mid-February Federal Bureau of Investigation Director J. Edgar Hoover informed the President that former members of the Committee had "gone underground" and were "biding their time," awaiting the opportunity to emerge again as a "political force." Hoover cited as evidence a mid-December meeting at which the renowned flyer had allegedly held forth on the yellow and Bolshevik menaces, on the foolishness of the current war in Europe, and on what might be done to reverse American policy.
According to Hoover's informant, Lindbergh declared that "when the American people, by reason of the lists of the missing and the statements of war losses, realize that they have been betrayed by the British and the Administration," the Committee should be ready to "advocate a negotiated peace." Hoover also noted that he had obtained information from other sources to the effect that the America Firsters had a "secret mailing list of 8,476,000"; that lately a "great many individuals among foreign speaking groups have been circularized"; and that the leaders of the underground organization planned to hold a "series of house parties . .. to keep alive contacts."34​

Further:

Nevertheless, the President could not rest easy, for the fate of the extremists notwithstanding, he had reason to ponder the possibility that his more respectable political enemies might use the peace issue to unsettle and embarrass the administration. In April OFF warned that in the fall congressional campaigns "subversion will probably be intermingled with politics" as both administration opponents and Nazi propagandists seek to "promote defeatism or play upon the war weariness of the people." Fleshing out this prediction was a report informing the President that three leading isolationist Republicans, Congressman Joe Martin, former Congressman Bruce Barton, and publisher Roy Howard, had "just held a secret meeting in far off Tucson," leading to speculation that they were planning an "isolationist attack" against administration war policies. A more explicit warning came to Roosevelt from a friend, New Dealer Gardiner Jackson, who told him in the fall of 1942 that the business interests behind the presidential candidacy of Thomas E. Dewey were working hard for a negotiated peace and had taken a recent conciliatory speech by Hitler as the "opening gun of the drive to call the war off. . . ." The problem raised by these reports (if true) was, as OFF warned, that even if the agitation of the peace issue could not force the administration into negotiations, it could do "much damage" by strengthening "the hand of those in Congress whose main goal is the harassment and obstruction of the President."37

The basis of this is less that defeating Nazi Germany in the event of a Soviet collapse would be impossible than that it would be hugely costly for the US. I.e. that it would have to use its own manpower with a much larger army to do the bulk of the fighting rather than relying on allies to do so.

I'm not saying that in the event of a Soviet collapse, which was pretty unlikely in 42 onward, the US wouldn't decide on a compromise 'peace' with the Nazis - assuming they can get Hitler to agree to it which may be an issue;). Just that it wouldn't be because defeating the Nazis by conventional military means was impossible.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Something as simple as World War One ending quickly is enough to smother the Liberal order in its cradle. Given how much of a pig's ear has been made of it since then, one wonders whether or not Germany winning in 1914 would have been for the better.

That depends on what you mean the Liberal order. The traditional definition of a commitment to limited government and similar lack of interference in social issues had been the dominant situation in both Britain and the US for a long time by 1900 but was starting to be challenged because of its shortcomings. A more interventionist government involvement to ease social problems was in place in Germany and some of the other nations of Europe while others were still strongly aristocratic/autocratic in cases. [Germany managed to have both of those aspects to some degree!]

The rise of some form of socialism was probably inevitable given conditions, although whether it would become social democratic rather than an extreme form and whether it would replace traditional radical elements as completely as it often did is uncertain.

Without an earlier POD than the FF assassination its pretty much impossible for Germany to win in 1914 but if that did happen it would be a disaster for most of the developed world. France would be seriously truncated in power and Britain would have to spend a lot more on the military to safeguard the home islands against Germany as well as the wider threat, with Germany controlling Belgium and probably at least some of the French coastline. Russia is likely to lose its Polish provinces and would similarly have to beef up its forces to provide some security without a western continental ally to balance the German threat. The US, with a militaristic Germany so dominant in Europe is likely to see an earlier version of the 1916 programme. especially as Germany is likely to further expand the naval race. A quick and relatively cheap victory would also strengthen German militarism and autocratic tendencies and discredit the more liberal attitudes in Britain and France. This also means the survival of pretty autocratic regimes across most of central and eastern Europe with the Austrian, Russian and Ottoman [albeit in an arch Turkish nationalist position] surviving.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
The basis of this is less that defeating Nazi Germany in the event of a Soviet collapse would be impossible than that it would be hugely costly for the US. I.e. that it would have to use its own manpower with a much larger army to do the bulk of the fighting rather than relying on allies to do so.

I'm not saying that in the event of a Soviet collapse, which was pretty unlikely in 42 onward, the US wouldn't decide on a compromise 'peace' with the Nazis - assuming they can get Hitler to agree to it which may be an issue;). Just that it wouldn't be because defeating the Nazis by conventional military means was impossible.

The entirety of the U.S. political and military establishment disagree, as I've extensively cited now. The U.S. did not have the manpower or the industrial capacity to grind down a Nazi Germany free of the Eastern Front and with the strategic depth of resources granted by such a victory.

As for the Soviets, they were on a knife’s edge in 1942 just as they were in 1941. See Mark Harrison’s The USSR and Total War: why didn't the soviet economy collapse in 1942? The Soviets nearly exhausted their manpower and slipped into starvation in 1942-1943.
 

stevep

Well-known member
The entirety of the U.S. political and military establishment disagree, as I've extensively cited now. The U.S. did not have the manpower or the industrial capacity to grind down a Nazi Germany free of the Eastern Front and with the strategic depth of resources granted by such a victory.

As for the Soviets, they were on a knife’s edge in 1942 just as they were in 1941. See Mark Harrison’s The USSR and Total War: why didn't the soviet economy collapse in 1942? The Soviets nearly exhausted their manpower and slipped into starvation in 1942-1943.

It definitely had the industrial capacity and with allies almost certainly had the manpower. Especially since even a German victory in the east wouldn't be the end of the commitments there. There would be a substantial occupation force required, especially considering Germany policies towards the Slavs and some large Russia state still outside direct control. It was more that they didn't want the human and political costs of engaging the Germans with a massed army.

As I say the other issue with this idea is getting a Hitler triumphant in the east to agree to such a peace treaty.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
It definitely had the industrial capacity and with allies almost certainly had the manpower. Especially since even a German victory in the east wouldn't be the end of the commitments there. There would be a substantial occupation force required, especially considering Germany policies towards the Slavs and some large Russia state still outside direct control. It was more that they didn't want the human and political costs of engaging the Germans with a massed army.

As I say the other issue with this idea is getting a Hitler triumphant in the east to agree to such a peace treaty.

Why then is everyone, from FDR on down, convinced of the opposite then? Are they stupid or, perhaps, they are right in their views? The Victory Plan of 1941 was specifically written to be the Anglo-American War Plan in the case of a Soviet collapse, and the conclusions they reached further underline this point:

victory-plan-png.570469


As for the Germans, 100 Divisions would be more than sufficient to occupy the USSR up to the Urals, which means an immediate freeing up of 50 Divisions by 1942 for operations elsewhere; Turkey being forced into the Axis and a German offensive into the Middle East from that base is an obvious move from which the British themselves stated they could not defend against nor was the United States in a position to do so. Besides these immediate freeing up of divisions, it's important to note the vast manpower and industrial resources now free from the Eastern Front. 2,124,352 men died, were captured or went missing from the German Army alone on said front; that manpower is now free to be returned to Germany for use in industrial labor or, if need be, could alone constitute the equivalent of another 150 Divisions.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
As for the Germans, 100 Divisions would be more than sufficient to occupy the USSR up to the Urals, which means an immediate freeing up of 50 Divisions by 1942 for operations elsewhere; Turkey being forced into the Axis and a German offensive into the Middle East from that base is an obvious move from which the British themselves stated they could not defend against nor was the United States in a position to do so. Besides these immediate freeing up of divisions, it's important to note the vast manpower and industrial resources now free from the Eastern Front. 2,124,352 men died, were captured or went missing from the German Army alone on said front; that manpower is now free to be returned to Germany for use in industrial labor or, if need be, could alone constitute the equivalent of another 150 Divisions.

Germany had a lot of things going for it in World War II. Indeed, it seems its real undoing was the ideology of Nazism and how its vicious cuntery drove their enemies into "war of survival" mode. I said in another thread that if the Germans had shown the slightest respect for the rules of war, the Soviet people would have welcomed them with open arms and Stalin's regime would have collapsed.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Why then is everyone, from FDR on down, convinced of the opposite then? Are they stupid or, perhaps, they are right in their views? The Victory Plan of 1941 was specifically written to be the Anglo-American War Plan in the case of a Soviet collapse, and the conclusions they reached further underline this point:

victory-plan-png.570469


As for the Germans, 100 Divisions would be more than sufficient to occupy the USSR up to the Urals, which means an immediate freeing up of 50 Divisions by 1942 for operations elsewhere; Turkey being forced into the Axis and a German offensive into the Middle East from that base is an obvious move from which the British themselves stated they could not defend against nor was the United States in a position to do so. Besides these immediate freeing up of divisions, it's important to note the vast manpower and industrial resources now free from the Eastern Front. 2,124,352 men died, were captured or went missing from the German Army alone on said front; that manpower is now free to be returned to Germany for use in industrial labor or, if need be, could alone constitute the equivalent of another 150 Divisions.

Well that quote makes a lot of assumptions:
a) That the European Axis can maintain 400 divisions. - possibly
b) That their all deployed against the western allies - which as you point out won't be the case. I can't see minor powers like Hungary or Bulgaria being that willing to defend areas in the west, not to mention the logistical and supply problems that would cause.
c) That their furthermore all deployed against allies points of attack - which is also very doubtful. - The Axis have very long borders for their empire and must initially defend the vast majority of it.
d) That the 2-1 ratio will apply against all Axis powers despite the firepower and air superiority advantage the western powers will have.
e) That even if the Germans get as far as the Urals - which is doubtful in the short term at least it will be the end of Soviet/Russian opposition.

In terms of your assumptions
a) The Germans aren't going to get to the Urals in 1941 if at all.
b) I suspect your also assuming their going to make largely unrestricted use of the Baku region oilfields, which is extremely unlikely.
c) Attacking into the ME are going to face significant logistical problems whether via the Caucasus or via Turkey, even if Turkey doesn't oppose the latter.

The Axis has chances of making some progress in the ME but serious problems the further they get from their sources of supply, just as with N Africa.

Also again your assuming that Hitler would be willing to make peace.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Germany had a lot of things going for it in World War II. Indeed, it seems its real undoing was the ideology of Nazism and how its vicious cuntery drove their enemies into "war of survival" mode. I said in another thread that if the Germans had shown the slightest respect for the rules of war, the Soviet people would have welcomed them with open arms and Stalin's regime would have collapsed.

Well that and the gross incompetence and corruption that went with it. Plus the special handicap of Hitler's misleadership with encouragement of the same and lack of reality.
 

ATP

Well-known member
I agree few-if any-wanted to directly side with Germany but such wasn't my argument. Rather, my position is that the overwhelming evidence is that the vast majority of Americans weren't interested in the European War and such could translate into a peace movement; it's also, in a way, academic because the overwhelming documentation shows the American Political-Military establishment was already in favor of conducting such a peace should the Germans conquer the USSR.

As for the notion only a few wanted to stay out of the war, we need to disabuse that notion because it is the reverse and decisively so, according to Gallup polling:

NOVEMBER 22

EUROPEAN WAR

Interviewing Date 11/7-12/41

Survey #252-K Question #11

It has been suggested that Congress pass a resolution declaring that a state of war exists between the United States and Germany. Would you favor or oppose such a resolution at this time?

Favor.............................. 26%

Oppose.........................63%

No opinion......................... 1%

Yes, less than a month from Pearl Harbor and as the Germans advanced on Moscow nearly two thirds of Americans were still opposed to entry into the conflict despite the Reuben James and other events directly resulting in American casualties.

Indeed.American publoc simply do not cared who would conqer Europe,as long as they do not mess with USA.
I would say - very pragmatist approach.
And would be sensible,if germany was not lead by genuine madman.Who could attack USA just becouse.

Making deal with soviets was as unmoral as with germans,but Stalin at least was not mad.
If you must choose between 2 genociders,always made deal with sane one.
 

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