WI: Muhammad was a Christian

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Aside from the conflict or not with European Christianity, the bigger story for me would be Arabic Missionaries heading farther East.

India...China...

Hitting those empires in those time frames could REALLY alter the world history.

Emperor Daozong James I of the Liao Dynasty...egads mate the butterfly effect!

The Mongols may found crusader states in India. People forget a lot of the women Genghis surrounded himself with were Nestorians.

Same for kublai

 

[Navarro]

The Mongols may found crusader states in India.

IIRC there've been Christians in India since the Apostolic period.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

IIRC there've been Christians in India since the Apostolic period.

Yes I know and there were Christians in the middle east as well. There were still crusades.

It would certainly come in force to China this Mohammed founded protestantism

 

[History Learner]

Honestly, I think even a 'Muhammad is a peaceful Christian and there is no sudden Arab expansion in the 7th century' scenario could be interesting. That at least would probably mean the continued survival of the full-strength ERE with its Levantine & Egyptian borders, the Sassanid Persians (I've read that Zoroastrianism was losing favor by the time Islam came knocking, some Sassanid princes like Anoshazad had become very sympathetic to Christians and that Nestorianism had briefly become the largest religion in Persia, so...Christian Iran & Central Asia in the long term, perhaps?), and the balance of power between them.

That said, Muhammad being some sort of early Arab Luther/Calvin could work too. IIRC Christian iconoclasm first became a big thing in response to the Muslims' battlefield successes against the Byzantines, but the seeds were sown as early as the huge spread of religious icons under Justinian. Some sort of iconoclastic, but still clearly Christian, sect replacing Islam as the religion of the Arabs if they still go on their conquering spree would make for a very different Arabic empire indeed, though other than Ebionism (adoptionist Judaizers) I'm not sure what other doctrines they might follow or come up with outside of the already-established Miaphysite and Nestorian ones.

IIRC, the Arab expansion was tied into demographic and climate factors, although Islam did provide a unifying structure for the invaders.

 

[ATP]

Saint John of Damascus who lived during muslim invasion wrote that muslim are heretics,not other religion,and Christopher Luxenberg,modern scientis suggested that Koram initially was heretic Lectionary.
So,Mochamet was christian - and so what?

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Saint John of Damascus who lived during muslim invasion wrote that muslim are heretics,not other religion,and Christopher Luxenberg,modern scientis suggested that Koram initially was heretic Lectionary.
So,Mochamet was christian - and so what?

There's supposedly some evidence to suggest Mohammed himself died believing this and begging for forgiveness over it.

Rather controversial evidence but.

 

[ATP]

There's supposedly some evidence to suggest Mohammed himself died believing this and begging for forgiveness over it.

Rather controversial evidence but.

Possible.But it must be some small christian sect ,becouse Koran say that Trinity is made from God ,Jesus and Holy Mary.Nobody belived that among main heretics.

 

[Nepcotevalley]

Harry Turtledove wrote a short story about a Christian Mohammed. He became a monk in a Syrian Monastery . In the story the monks were being forced out of their home by a Persian invasion.

They were heading towards Constantinople. As I recall there was some concern expressed about what Brother Mohammed might get up to once he was exposed to politics of the imperial court. The story was called Departures.

 

[ATP]

Harry Turtledove wrote a short story about a Christian Mohammed. He became a monk in a Syrian Monastery . In the story the monks were being forced out of their home by a Persian invasion.

They were heading towards Constantinople. As I recall there was some concern expressed about what Brother Mohammed might get up to once he was exposed to politics of the imperial court. The story was called Departures.

Some kind of sequel is Agent of Bysantium,where - long after he become reformer and Saint of orthodox church ,Byzantium and Persia still is plaing games with each other,ERE take over Italy,pope run to France,And catholic german take over ERE Spain using gunpowder invented by catholic monks.

 

[Aaron Fox]

That heavily depends on the overall context. Historically, the situation on the Arabian Peninsula is... chaotic... at best during that time with Muhammad having all sorts of problems.

... and then there is Ali... who is Muhammad's closest man and a shoo-in for being the head honcho but he (at the time) was preparing Muhammad's body for a proper burial...



Yeah, Islam went the way it did because some idiots tried to cause problems by proxy and one of Muhammad's top lieutenants that wasn't Ali went 'oh fuck no you don't! Muhammad, Ali, and I didn't unite Arabia just so you can bust everything!' and caused all sorts of shit in the process... some of which we're still dealing with to this day.

 

[History Learner]

Demographic factors will still trigger an Arab explosion, so to speak, in terms of outward migration; without the unitary effect of Islam, however, it will probably resemble more closely that of the Germanic tribes in the previous centuries. One idea I've often thought about is the Arabs as a whole adopting Miaphysitism via the Ghassanids, and then liberating the Levant and Egypt from the Byzantines while conquering Mesopotamia from the Persians, which was probably majority Christian by the time of the OTL Muslim invasions.

No unified Caliphate, however, so it would be like the Visigoths, Franks, etc replicated in the middle east. I could see the Mesopotamian Arab state usurping the Persian throne and using the resources of their realm to build a new Iranian empire to replace the Sassanids, albeit Christian and with a heavily Persianized Arab dynasty.

 

[Circle of Willis]

Demographic factors will still trigger an Arab explosion, so to speak, in terms of outward migration; without the unitary effect of Islam, however, it will probably resemble more closely that of the Germanic tribes in the previous centuries. One idea I've often thought about is the Arabs as a whole adopting Miaphysitism via the Ghassanids, and then liberating the Levant and Egypt from the Byzantines while conquering Mesopotamia from the Persians, which was probably majority Christian by the time of the OTL Muslim invasions.

No unified Caliphate, however, so it would be like the Visigoths, Franks, etc replicated in the middle east. I could see the Mesopotamian Arab state usurping the Persian throne and using the resources of their realm to build a new Iranian empire to replace the Sassanids, albeit Christian and with a heavily Persianized Arab dynasty.

I mentioned it in my OP, but given the presence of the (at least partly, and likely majority by the late 6th/early 7th centuries) Nestorian Christian Lakhmids, as well as Miaphysite and Nestorian theology being more diametrically opposed to each other than either was to Roman Christianity, I think it's more likely for the Arabs to schism over those old fault lines - Miaphysites dominating in Syria & Egypt to the west, Nestorians in Mesopotamia & Persia to the east (where the Nestorian Church of the East was most prominent). If the Nestorian Arabs still penetrate into India as the Muslims did historically, maybe they could even firm up ties between the Patriarch of the East and the Saint Thomas Christians.

In any case, I'd imagine the conquering Arabs would get along better with the local Copts and Assyrians of Egypt & Mesopotamia respectively, who'd be (even more) important to local administration. They might well even remain the majorities in their homelands.

 

[stevep]

I mentioned it in my OP, but given the presence of the (at least partly, and likely majority by the late 6th/early 7th centuries) Nestorian Christian Lakhmids, as well as Miaphysite and Nestorian theology being more diametrically opposed to each other than either was to Roman Christianity, I think it's more likely for the Arabs to schism over those old fault lines - Miaphysites dominating in Syria & Egypt to the west, Nestorians in Mesopotamia & Persia to the east (where the Nestorian Church of the East was most prominent). If the Nestorian Arabs still penetrate into India as the Muslims did historically, maybe they could even firm up ties between the Patriarch of the East and the Saint Thomas Christians.

In any case, I'd imagine the conquering Arabs would get along better with the local Copts and Assyrians of Egypt & Mesopotamia respectively, who'd be (even more) important to local administration. They might well even remain the majorities in their homelands.

One issue here comes to mind. If Muhammad was a Christian and established one particular group - say Miaphysite - then its likely to cause problems in areas where their not the majority. The initial Muslim conquests were helped by the fact that in many areas large minorities/majorities were glad to be out of the restrictive control of their Byzantium or Persian overlords. Both because of the heavier taxes and because of attempts to enforce religious uniformity. Apart from them being too few to actually impose Islam on the massive population of their new subjects they didn't particularly bother what type of Christian sect you were as long as you paid the - generally lighter initially - taxes and didn't cause unrest. This is unlikely to be the same if you have Christian Arabs overrunning neighbouring regions. If say Miaphysite their likely to be welcomed even more in locations such as Egypt and Syria where their dominant but are likely to be determined to impose their intrepretation on says Orthodox minorities or Nestorians in the eastern conquests. Which could lead to differing successes and failures for the expansion.