Second Mexican American War in 1919

The Wages of Destruction by Adam Tooze makes a very convincing case that WWII was avoidable, in that what ended up happening with the rise of the NSDAP was the result of a variety of factors coming together. The most likely outcome was something like what happened in Iberia, with a military-led regime or something of the sort; think a DNVP led Germany with more limited goals. Alternatively, had Gustav Stressman lived, we would've got a Proto-EU led by the Franco-Germans.



The third wave of the pandemic had subsided by the Summer of 1919:

death-chart.jpg

Actually I'm reading it at the moment and I see it as more than Hitler and the Nazis were avoidable. He noted however that virtually all the German leaders in the intra-war period not only wanted to overthrow the political result of Versailles but also its geographical one with desire to expand German territory. This definitely includes Stressman who never rejected his WWI support of further expansion to the east . He just realised that Germany was too weak at the time and sort, with a fair level of success to divide the western democracies.

An alternative right wing or military government might have been more dangerous in that it wouldn't have been as bat-s**t insane as the Nazis and screwed up their economy as much and hence have been a stronger threat when it sought a conquest spree. Alternatively it might have failed earlier if it hadn't got away with the maneuvering and high junks that Hitler pulled to manage massive levels of rearmament by looting 1st Germany and foreign [largely US] debts and then everything else he could get his hands on.

As such your still got a high probability of a conflict at some point which might have been even worse or somewhat shorter than OTL.
 
So, the PoD is easy: Wilson recovers a few days later, by which point Secretary of State Lansing and Senator Fall have forced the conflict with Mexico and Wilson has no choice but to persecute it.

Planning done over the course of 1919 suggested about 400,000 troops were needed for the operation, which due to the recent World War, were readily available along with large equipment stocks. The direct war planning for the campaign was more embryonic in nature, but was later refined into War Plan Green in the late 1920s quite easily. Basically, the conflict would be a replay of 1846-1848, in that there would be an amphibious landing in Veracruz before commencing an overland invasion from there to Mexico City. In the borderlands to the North, the U.S. would mainly stay static and prevent any Mexican incursions (Think 1916 Columbus Raid) while also probably doing raiding of their own; that strategic points/cities might be occupied too is probably a given.

All together, I wouldn't be surprised if the conflict wraps up within the course of 1920, at least the conventional phase of it. Once Mexico City falls to the U.S. Army, however, it gets difficult. In 1848, the U.S. wasn't seeking to replace the existing Government so they could cut a deal and then get out; here, they are doing the opposite and thus must hunt down officials or sufficiently cut them down that they can install their own replacement. Installing a puppet and then bailing out just isn't going to work here, because the moment they do the original one will overthrow it. As a result, they will need to occupy the whole country and conduct an Anti-Insurgency campaign.

As stated earlier, the U.S. has the advantage of sufficient numbers and a fair amount of institutional memory in this. The Philippine War is recent with lots of officers with experience there, and historically we saw the U.S. do this type of warfare quite well in the Banana Wars. Hell, 1920 isn't that far removed from the last of the Indian Wars either. As an added final bonus, the Mexican populace as a whole is pretty tired; they've just come out of a decade long Civil War with up to 2.7 million casualties, or roughly the same amount of casualties the USSR took in WWII. Over time, any insurgency will wither and die, and the U.S. can gradually reduce its presence over the course of the 1920s. Unlike, say, South Vietnam IOTL I'd imagine a favorable disposition would ultimately come towards the occupation; after a decade of civil war, the U.S. Army would be providing real stability and security, while American investment would likely flood into Mexico in a way it didn't until the late 20th Century or so, creating jobs. That American soldiers would also be major customers for many Mexican products is a bonus.

In the background of all of this, the First Red Scare is probably going strong all 1920 long and probably carries Leonard Wood to the GOP nomination as a result. By the time he's sworn into office in March of 1921, the conventional phase will have ended and the anti-partisan phase will have begun and like carry on for most of his Presidency. As cited earlier, Wood was an Imperialist and the need to build a new government from scratch would likely see a "Commonwealth of Mexico" established, with a nominal national Government in place but backed up by force of American arms and a Governor-General in de facto command. Obviously, a lot of changes are going to be occurring domestically within the United States at the same time too. For one, with Wood as a President, it's very likely the Pershing Plan gets implemented on the basis of national defense and the obvious economic benefits. Perhaps more important, however, is that the U.S. is unlikely to disarm as much as it did historically. In our historical 1919, Army Chief of Staff Peyton Marsh proposed a standing force of 500,000 men, a National Guard of an additional 500,000, and 100,000 reserve officers to be used as a cadre for additional following divisions. Obviously this went nowhere in our world, but here President Wood has the bully pulpit and the occupation of Mexico/extended Red Scare, at least to me, makes it likely due to sheer need.

There's also obviously more mundane political considerations to be taken into account as well. For one, there's no Harding as President, which means no Teapot Dome scandal and this is likely enough to carry Theodore Roosevelt Jr to the Governor's office in New York, which means no Al Smith in 1928 and likely no FDR either in 1932. I'd suspect Coolidge would still be Vice President under Wood, his popularity pre-dating the divergence, and I expect him to not run for a term of his own in 1928 thus paving the way for Herbert Hoover. I don't see the Great Depression being avoided with the given specifics of the scenario (It's possible, if Wood picked Senator Lenroot as his VP in 1920 IMHO), which likely means a President McAdoo in 1932. I'd imagine McAdoo would do several things from the First New Deal just as FDR did, in particular the banking holiday; he had done that previously in 1914 and prevented the Anglo-French from collapsing the U.S. economy during the early days of World War I. I'd imagine by this point the U.S. occupation force in Mexico would be more skeletal in nature in general and defense cuts would be inevitable. However, the floor is higher here given the earlier actions, which means even deep cuts would still leave the U.S. Armed Forces better off relative to our own history.

Otherwise, however, the situation is more murky because I don't see McAdoo or the "traditional" Democrats going for what FDR did with the Second New Deal and things like the Wagner Act. There might also be more aversion to deficit spending from the onset and impacting sooner. Historically, this probably resulted in the Recession in 1937, and so we may see that occur in 1936 or even 1935 here. That, combined with Labor not backing McAdoo without a Wagner Act analogue leaves the President very, very vulnerable to a primary or even third party challenge by Huey Long. One irony of a Red Scare induced Mexican War in 1919/1920 might be a more Social Democratic United States in the long run as a result.

Although I'd agree that the US would easily defeat 1910s Mexico if it came to open war between them, I'm skeptical that they would be able to sustain a successful occupation. By 1919 the counter-revolutionary forces had been pretty thoroughly smashed, so all that was left was the more moderate and established revolutionaries (the Carrancistas, who weren't exactly chill urbane liberals but rather essentially the bourgeois faction with radical-liberal motives in the vein of the Jacobins) fighting against even more radical factions (the socialist-inclined Villistas in the north and primarily indigenous, agrarian-anarchist Zapatistas down south). Despite the revolution's losses, it (and the earlier Veracruz occupation & Pancho Villa Expedition) solidified Mexican nationalistic fervor as well, manifested in the drive of every Mexican government afterward to expropriate foreign oil businesses for example. The only force remotely inclined to side with the US at such a late point in the Revolution would have been the Felicistas, conservative supporters of Porfirio Diaz's nephew Felix, and they had been utterly marginalized for years by then.

The Mexican Revolution did cause untold devastation to Mexico and kill millions of Mexicans over a ten-year period, but I am reminded of the War of the Reform in the mid-19th century. That too devastated Mexico, perhaps not as badly as the Revolution (but it was the tail-end of decades of earlier violent unrest which had roiled Mexico for the entire first half of the 19th century), but when the French invaded and installed Maximilian von Habsburg as Emperor in the 1860s, they found the Mexicans fighting to repel these foreign interlopers with a fervor nobody thought they had. Conversely, the collaborators seemed to be chronically short in supply (mostly hailing from the upper classes which were endangered by the revolutionaries' goals) and generally less motivated than the nationalist-minded rebels; I can't imagine that'd change much in 1924 compared to 1864, especially not when the Americans have given the Mexicans so many more reasons to hate them than the French ever did.

I don't know, I just can't see most Mexicans just rolling out the welcome mat for the Americans - foreign occupiers who, unlike the French, have already accrued significant opprobrium with the Mexicans over the past century - no matter how much investment the latter sink into the country, and it likely won't be all that much if the insurgencies and terrorist attacks remain chronic problems (as they likely will for at least the 1920s). Not to mention that American economic investment likely means American-owned businesses and infrastructure, which was actually a factor in generating said opprobrium in the first place: American mining, railroad, petroleum and agricultural interests in Mexico were already dealing with increasingly serious labor agitation among their Mexican workers even before the revolution, ex. the Cananea strike-turned-massacre back in 1906. The Americans weren't the only foreign investors in Mexico, obviously - the British and others lost out during the nationalizations of the historical '20s too - but they seem to have been the 'face' of foreign economic investment/exploitation for the Mexican commons on account of both being the biggest investors (as is natural, they're the next door economic powerhouse) and historical nationalistic reasons.

Finally, I'm also skeptical of the American populace's willingness to sit on Mexico's neck for as long as it would take to destroy the anti-American insurgencies there. After WW1 there didn't seem to be any great appetite on their part to embark on foreign conquests or involvement in the world beyond their borders, after all. The US got away with the Banana Wars because those weren't big resource sinks - a few thousand Marines could, and did, keep the likes of Haiti & Nicaragua down for decades, at relatively little expense for the USG in both money and lives. But maintaining a 200,000 to 400,000 strong (at minimum) force to keep Mexico, a geographically and demographically (even after the Revolution) much larger neighbor than either Haiti or Nicaragua, down for a decade, when that's larger than the entire US Army was in 1939 and when the original casus belli (punishing Mexico for things like the Jenkins kidnapping, for example) would have worn out its welcome in short order? Sorry, but I must admit I have a really hard time picturing the general public of the interwar United States being okay with that for more than a few years.
 
Actually I'm reading it at the moment and I see it as more than Hitler and the Nazis were avoidable. He noted however that virtually all the German leaders in the intra-war period not only wanted to overthrow the political result of Versailles but also its geographical one with desire to expand German territory. This definitely includes Stressman who never rejected his WWI support of further expansion to the east . He just realised that Germany was too weak at the time and sort, with a fair level of success to divide the western democracies.

An alternative right wing or military government might have been more dangerous in that it wouldn't have been as bat-s**t insane as the Nazis and screwed up their economy as much and hence have been a stronger threat when it sought a conquest spree. Alternatively it might have failed earlier if it hadn't got away with the maneuvering and high junks that Hitler pulled to manage massive levels of rearmament by looting 1st Germany and foreign [largely US] debts and then everything else he could get his hands on.

As such your still got a high probability of a conflict at some point which might have been even worse or somewhat shorter than OTL.

From Page 2 of The Wages of Destruction:

It would be wrong, of course, to deny that there are continuities that connect all sides in the strategic debate in Germany in the 1920s and 1930s to the imperialist legacy of the Wilhelmine era.3 Hostility towards the French and Poles and imperial designs on Germany's neighbours both in the West and in the East were nothing new. However, an excessive stress on continuity obscures the transformative impact on German politics of the defeat of November 1918 and the traumatic crisis that followed. This agony reached its climax in 1923 when the French occupied the Ruhr, the industrial heart of the German economy. Over the following months, as Berlin sponsored a mass campaign of passive resistance, the country descended into hyperinflation and political disorder so severe that by the autumn of 1923 it called into question the survival of the German nation-state as such.4 Strategic debate in Germany was never the same again. On the one hand, the crisis of 1918-23 gave rise to an ultra-nationalism - in the form of the radical wing of the DNVP and Hitler's Nazi party - that was more apocalyptic in its intensity than anything prior to 1914. On the other hand, it also produced a truly novel departure in German foreign and economic policy. This alternative to nationalist militancy also aimed to achieve a revision of the onerous terms of the Treaty of Versailles. But it aimed to do so not by gambling on military force. Instead, Weimar's foreign policy prioritized the economy as the main field within which Germany could still exercise influence in the world. Above all, it sought security and leverage for Germany by developing financial connections with the United States and closer industrial integration with France. In certain key respects, this clearly anticipated the strategy pursued by West Germany after 1945. It was a policy that enjoyed the backing of all of the parties of the Weimar coalition - the Social Democrats, the left liberal DDP and the Catholic Centre party. But it was personified by Gustav Stresemann, leader of the national liberals, the DVP, and Germany's Foreign Minister between 1923 and 1929.5​
 
Although I'd agree that the US would easily defeat 1910s Mexico if it came to open war between them, I'm skeptical that they would be able to sustain a successful occupation. By 1919 the counter-revolutionary forces had been pretty thoroughly smashed, so all that was left was the more moderate and established revolutionaries (the Carrancistas, who weren't exactly chill urbane liberals but rather essentially the bourgeois faction with radical-liberal motives in the vein of the Jacobins) fighting against even more radical factions (the socialist-inclined Villistas in the north and primarily indigenous, agrarian-anarchist Zapatistas down south). Despite the revolution's losses, it (and the earlier Veracruz occupation & Pancho Villa Expedition) solidified Mexican nationalistic fervor as well, manifested in the drive of every Mexican government afterward to expropriate foreign oil businesses for example. The only force remotely inclined to side with the US at such a late point in the Revolution would have been the Felicistas, conservative supporters of Porfirio Diaz's nephew Felix, and they had been utterly marginalized for years by then.

The Mexican Revolution did cause untold devastation to Mexico and kill millions of Mexicans over a ten-year period, but I am reminded of the War of the Reform in the mid-19th century. That too devastated Mexico, perhaps not as badly as the Revolution (but it was the tail-end of decades of earlier violent unrest which had roiled Mexico for the entire first half of the 19th century), but when the French invaded and installed Maximilian von Habsburg as Emperor in the 1860s, they found the Mexicans fighting to repel these foreign interlopers with a fervor nobody thought they had. Conversely, the collaborators seemed to be chronically short in supply (mostly hailing from the upper classes which were endangered by the revolutionaries' goals) and generally less motivated than the nationalist-minded rebels; I can't imagine that'd change much in 1924 compared to 1864, especially not when the Americans have given the Mexicans so many more reasons to hate them than the French ever did.

I don't know, I just can't see most Mexicans just rolling out the welcome mat for the Americans - foreign occupiers who, unlike the French, have already accrued significant opprobrium with the Mexicans over the past century - no matter how much investment the latter sink into the country, and it likely won't be all that much if the insurgencies and terrorist attacks remain chronic problems (as they likely will for at least the 1920s). Not to mention that American economic investment likely means American-owned businesses and infrastructure, which was actually a factor in generating said opprobrium in the first place: American mining, railroad, petroleum and agricultural interests in Mexico were already dealing with increasingly serious labor agitation among their Mexican workers even before the revolution, ex. the Cananea strike-turned-massacre back in 1906. The Americans weren't the only foreign investors in Mexico, obviously - the British and others lost out during the nationalizations of the historical '20s too - but they seem to have been the 'face' of foreign economic investment/exploitation for the Mexican commons on account of both being the biggest investors (as is natural, they're the next door economic powerhouse) and historical nationalistic reasons.

Finally, I'm also skeptical of the American populace's willingness to sit on Mexico's neck for as long as it would take to destroy the anti-American insurgencies there. After WW1 there didn't seem to be any great appetite on their part to embark on foreign conquests or involvement in the world beyond their borders, after all. The US got away with the Banana Wars because those weren't big resource sinks - a few thousand Marines could, and did, keep the likes of Haiti & Nicaragua down for decades, at relatively little expense for the USG in both money and lives. But maintaining a 200,000 to 400,000 strong (at minimum) force to keep Mexico, a geographically and demographically (even after the Revolution) much larger neighbor than either Haiti or Nicaragua, down for a decade, when that's larger than the entire US Army was in 1939 and when the original casus belli (punishing Mexico for things like the Jenkins kidnapping, for example) would have worn out its welcome in short order? Sorry, but I must admit I have a really hard time picturing the general public of the interwar United States being okay with that for more than a few years.

I do agree now that outright annexation is unlikely, but something like the Commonwealth Status of the Philippines or Puerto Rico seems plausible for the reasons you outline; there's not an immediate, acceptable alternative. This requires the U.S. to stay in and maintain the occupation until they have a replacement they can safely leave, same as what occurred with the Philippines. The U.S. public managed to maintain the occupation and operations in the Philippines and did the Banana Wars without much issue, so I don't think Mexico would be either. As far as motivation, while the Jenkins Kidnaping was the proximate cause, there was others that contributed to this environment, perhaps most prominently the hundreds of American citizens having been killed as a result of the Mexican Revolution. The 1919 Crisis came in the context of the First Red Scare too, with the proposed actions having a lot of ties into that.

To quote from 1919: William Jenkins, Robert Lansing, and the Mexican Interlude:
To this was added, as 1919 progressed, a growing mass of evidence purporting to show the extent of pro-German sympathy which had existed in Mexico during the war, as well as the degree to which Bolshevik and anarchist agitators were at that moment using the Republic as a haven from which to spread their revolutionary propaganda throughout the United States.' Although this information was largely disseminated by the notoriously prejudiced Fall Committee, primarily to discredit the Wilson administration, it received wide publicity.

Under these circumstances American attention naturally returned to Mexico at the end of the European conflict. In Paris Woodrow Wilson sought a just peace for Europe; at home the New York Times speculated upon conditions in Mexico and the possibility of intervention now that the war with Germany was over.'" As a result, when Woodrow Wilson returned home from Paris in June, 1919, he found congressional leaders voicing a demand for a "cleaning up" of the Mexican mess. Chief among them was Senator Albert B. Fall, long an advocator of such a policy and known as "Petroleum Fall" because of his oil interests in Mexico. Also influential was freshman Congressman C. B. Hudspeth of Texas. After an incident in which American troops had been forced to cross from El Paso, Texas, into JuArez, Mexico, in order to protect American lives, he stated:

"Mr. Speaker, the clock has struck the hour, and it has been striking that same hour for eight long years, when this government should say to both Carranza and Villa, "You must keep your unholy hands off our citizens, and if another American life is sacrificed at your hands I will put my armies into your country, and visit upon you the wrath of a long suffering and outraged people." In conjunction with this attitude, by mid-July of 1919 American troops had been massed along the border 60,000 strong, and a squadron of airplanes and 100 small tanks had been sent to the Southwest to assist in preparing for any event
And from Woodrow Wilson and the Mexican Interventionist Movement of 1919:
IN December 1919 Chairman Henry Cabot Lodge of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations wrote two significant letters defending the members of a controversial subcommittee which had issued a report accusing the Mexican government of circulating Bolshevistic propaganda in the United States. In both letters Lodge especially praised Senator Albert B. Fall of New Mexico, the chairman of the three man subcommittee and the author of a concurrent resolution which had called for the United States to break off diplomatic relations with Mexico Introduced on December 3, during the crisis over the arrest of Consular Agent William 0. Jenkins in Mexico, the Fall resolution died five days later in the Committee on Foreign Relations when President Woodrow Wilson indicated that he would be "gravely concerned" to see any such resolution pass Congress.
Further, from the same:
Financed at a cost of approximately $20,000 a month, mostly contributed by the big oil companies, NAPARIM employed Charles Boynton, a former manager of the Associated Press, as its executive director and established a New York office in the same building which housed the Association of Oil Producers in Mexico.23 With regional offices in Washington, El Paso, and Los Angeles and a mounting membership of over 2,000 by the summer of 1919, NAPARIM published and distributed sensational anti-Carrancista materials which pointed out abuses to Americans in Mexico, underscored disorder and chaos in that country, and branded its government as pro-German and its Constitution as "Bolshevistic." In addition, the Association maintained constant and friendly contact with the state department, encouraged American Legion posts, local chambers of commerce, and other organizations throughout the nation to send resolutions to Congress and to the administration calling for the United States to protect the lives and property of Americans in Mexico. NAPARIM may also have subsidized the outpouring of anti-Carrancista books and articles which inundated the country during 1919.24
Further:
With substantial aid from the Murray Hill group, from NAPARIM, from the Association of Oil Producers in Mexico, and, after the illness of President Wilson, from the state department, the subcommittee settled down during the autumn and winter of 1919 to prepare and publicize its case against the Carranza government. The Murray Hill group coordinated subcommittee activities in New York, maintained contact with Mexican counterrevolutionaries, ran preliminary investigations on witnesses, and handled such confidential information as documents related to the conspiratorial "Plan of San Diego" and to the charges that the Mexican government was spreading Bolshevistic propaganda in the United States.30 NAPARIM supplied witnesses, prepared "disorder" and "murder" maps to be included in the subcommittee's report and released to the press, and employed journalist E. R. Sartwell to prepare press releases about the sensational hearings of the subcommittee.31 The large oil companies, which dominated the Association of Oil Producers in Mexico, worked largely through Walker to advise the subcommittee and to smooth its way so that cooperation would be possible with departments of the executive branch of the government.32 Beginning in October 1919, the state department provided the subcommittee with needed documentary evidence pertaining to certain instances of the Carranza government's hostility toward the United States, to the controversies related to the petroleum situation, and to the Jenkins affair, which nearly became the cause ce'le'bre of a war with Mexico.
 
From Page 2 of The Wages of Destruction:

It would be wrong, of course, to deny that there are continuities that connect all sides in the strategic debate in Germany in the 1920s and 1930s to the imperialist legacy of the Wilhelmine era.3 Hostility towards the French and Poles and imperial designs on Germany's neighbours both in the West and in the East were nothing new. However, an excessive stress on continuity obscures the transformative impact on German politics of the defeat of November 1918 and the traumatic crisis that followed. This agony reached its climax in 1923 when the French occupied the Ruhr, the industrial heart of the German economy. Over the following months, as Berlin sponsored a mass campaign of passive resistance, the country descended into hyperinflation and political disorder so severe that by the autumn of 1923 it called into question the survival of the German nation-state as such.4 Strategic debate in Germany was never the same again. On the one hand, the crisis of 1918-23 gave rise to an ultra-nationalism - in the form of the radical wing of the DNVP and Hitler's Nazi party - that was more apocalyptic in its intensity than anything prior to 1914. On the other hand, it also produced a truly novel departure in German foreign and economic policy. This alternative to nationalist militancy also aimed to achieve a revision of the onerous terms of the Treaty of Versailles. But it aimed to do so not by gambling on military force. Instead, Weimar's foreign policy prioritized the economy as the main field within which Germany could still exercise influence in the world. Above all, it sought security and leverage for Germany by developing financial connections with the United States and closer industrial integration with France. In certain key respects, this clearly anticipated the strategy pursued by West Germany after 1945. It was a policy that enjoyed the backing of all of the parties of the Weimar coalition - the Social Democrats, the left liberal DDP and the Catholic Centre party. But it was personified by Gustav Stresemann, leader of the national liberals, the DVP, and Germany's Foreign Minister between 1923 and 1929.5​

As Tooze pointed out the purpose of that novel departure was to seek to divide the allies and win over the US to pressuring the ending of reparations. Which of course the allies needed to pay for US debts.

In terms of Stresemann's views:

Page 4

" In the dreadnought race Stresemann was a consistent advocate of the imperial fleet"

"After 1914 he was among the Reichstag's most aggressive advocates of all out U-boat war. But even in his most annexationist moments, Stresemann was above all motivated by an economic logic centred on the United States., The expansion of German territory to include Belgium, the French coastline to Calais, Morocco and extensive territory in the east was 'necessary' to secure for Germany an adequate platform for competition with America."

Page 5

Having talked about the concessions argued for to get better relations with the US, which included ending the campaign of passive opposition to the Franco-Belgium occupation of the Rhur but meant he was accused by the right of being a 'French candidate' it goes on to say

"Of course, nothing could be further from the truth. Stresemann was in every respect a full-blooded German nationalist. He never distanced himself from the annexationist positions he had adopted during WWI, because he saw no reason to regret them. Nor was he ever willing to accept as a long term solution the eastern border with Poland as defined by the 1921 plebiscite and League of Nation decision. His strategy, which relied on manipulating the interlocking interests of the United States, Britain and France, was simply more complex than the confrontational mode favoured by the ultra-nationalists."

Steve

PS I do find some very strange statements in Tooze's book. For instance a page later he refers to the system set up as enabling the Germans to repay the reduced reparations via US loans, which meant that the British and French could get the money to repair wardebts without having to open their markets to German goods. Since Britain had no trade barriers untikl 1931 when it finally abandon free trade this is an odd error.

Then a bit later on, talking of planned German rearmament before Hitler came to power there is mention of 21 divisions along with small armoured and air units he casually mentions 'this wouldn't breach the Versailles agreement when it most definitely would. Germany was explicitly limited to 100,000 men in their army and forbidden both armour and military aircraft. - checked and this is on p26.
 
I do agree now that outright annexation is unlikely, but something like the Commonwealth Status of the Philippines or Puerto Rico seems plausible for the reasons you outline; there's not an immediate, acceptable alternative. This requires the U.S. to stay in and maintain the occupation until they have a replacement they can safely leave, same as what occurred with the Philippines. The U.S. public managed to maintain the occupation and operations in the Philippines and did the Banana Wars without much issue, so I don't think Mexico would be either. As far as motivation, while the Jenkins Kidnaping was the proximate cause, there was others that contributed to this environment, perhaps most prominently the hundreds of American citizens having been killed as a result of the Mexican Revolution. The 1919 Crisis came in the context of the First Red Scare too, with the proposed actions having a lot of ties into that.

To quote from 1919: William Jenkins, Robert Lansing, and the Mexican Interlude:

And from Woodrow Wilson and the Mexican Interventionist Movement of 1919:

Further, from the same:

Further:

Actually of course the US could have left the Philippines in 1898 or shortly afterwards but instead they decided to fight a nasty war to suppress the independence movement. ;) If they had accepted the independence movement they could have had a friendly Philippines markedly earlier and with less bloodshed and destruction. Quite possibly also leasing some bases there if they had so desired.

More to the point while the US had a problem with the disorder in Mexico occasionally spilling over the border or putting at risk US citizens in Mexico and may have resorted to larger military actions to 'punish' Mexico and try and find a suitable leader - who would both comply with US economic demand and be popular enough to stay in power after a US withdrawal which would be a hell of a combination to get I agree with CoW that their unlikely to either fully suppress Mexican opposition to the occupation or be willing to maintain it over all of Mexico for a prolonged period. Your likely to have a running sore until the US withdraws.
 
I do agree now that outright annexation is unlikely, but something like the Commonwealth Status of the Philippines or Puerto Rico seems plausible for the reasons you outline; there's not an immediate, acceptable alternative. This requires the U.S. to stay in and maintain the occupation until they have a replacement they can safely leave, same as what occurred with the Philippines. The U.S. public managed to maintain the occupation and operations in the Philippines and did the Banana Wars without much issue, so I don't think Mexico would be either. As far as motivation, while the Jenkins Kidnaping was the proximate cause, there was others that contributed to this environment, perhaps most prominently the hundreds of American citizens having been killed as a result of the Mexican Revolution. The 1919 Crisis came in the context of the First Red Scare too, with the proposed actions having a lot of ties into that.

To quote from 1919: William Jenkins, Robert Lansing, and the Mexican Interlude:

And from Woodrow Wilson and the Mexican Interventionist Movement of 1919:

Further, from the same:

Further:

Didn't the Philippines require a smaller American troop presence than any invasion and occupation of Mexico (even with the goal of installing a pro-US government rather than keeping the place in its entirety) likely would, though? IIRC there were a little over 100,000 US troops involved in the Philippine-American war, and the US garrisons there ended up numbering something like 20,000 men by the eve of WW2. I don't think the United States ever deployed a 200,000-strong occupation force there, nor did they ever need to, since the Filipinos never had as awful a relationship with them as the one the Mexicans developed and the Filipino army was one that was almost entirely comprised of guerrillas.

On the flipside, the Mexican factions had plenty of experience in both regular and irregular warfare thanks to the Revolution, and a much more historically troubled relationship with the Americans (over nationalism, foreign businesses, etc.) that - combined with how the Revolution was arguably the event that cemented and inflamed Mexican nationalism throughout all sectors of society, including the lowly peones who had felt little attachment to the concept of a Mexican nation during the Diaz years - is likely to make the American occupation much thornier than even the one in the Philippines, IMO. Furthermore, the small victories of the Pancho Villa Expedition will have further reinforced that nationalism and Mexican beliefs that hey, the Americans aren't invincible after all.

The Americans made use of many capable native allies in the Philippines to reduce the need for (white) American troops in the garrisons there, such as the Philippine Scouts and Philippine Division, but I don't think they'd find a proportionate number of similarly willing allies among the Mexican population for the above reasons. And if history is anything to go by, from the poor record of the Mexican Imperial Army to the even worse one of Huerta's hordes of undisciplined and unmotivated draftees, the collaborators they're going to pick up are unlikely to be as good (in no small part because the actually competent and motivated counter-revolutionary forces and leaders in Mexico, such as the Federal Rurales and Pascual Orozco respectively, have already been destroyed, died and/or hopelessly discredited by 1919). I don't believe anti-Catholic attitudes among the Americans will be so extreme that they'll spark off the Cristero rebellion on their own, but that said attitudes persist (and were getting worse than usual in the '20s, what with the rise of the Second KKK and all) means they're not all that likely to be able to recruit the men who would've been Cristeros (many of whom were devout peasants from the central Mexican states, but their devotion to Christ the King didn't mean they didn't want land reform like the revolutionary peasantry, either...), as well.

I did mention the Banana Wars before, but those were much smaller affairs compared to the US occupation of the Philippines or worse still, the hypothetical occupation of Mexico. I don't think the US government ever sent more than a few thousand Marines to Haiti, Honduras and Nicaragua, and in all three cases that was enough, but they're all far smaller than Mexico population and geography-wise. The Banana Wars were easy enough to keep out of the general population's sight and mind due to their small size and the comparatively low cost (both in money and manpower) the USG had to pay to wage them, but I don't think that'd be the case with Mexico at all, since as you say the US would likely need to keep an army in the hundreds of thousands to maintain order there for at least several years (if not the entire first decade of the occupation, which I believe to be more likely).

As far as the Red Scare goes, I do agree that that would be a good motivator to keep going, but it'd be hard to sustain after a couple of years unless the Mexican rebellions come to be dominated by actual Communists. If figures like Tomas Garrido, who looked up to the Bolsheviks and even considered himself one, took over, then sure, the threat becomes real enough to justify sticking around until, at the very least, they've been destroyed totally. But if obviously non-Communist characters like Obregon manage to stick around, I can't really picture the post-WW1 US public not getting tired of the fighting and starting to vote in politicians who want to negotiate sensible terms with their ilk soon enough, probably by the late 1920s or early 1930s.

Honestly though, I believe the USA could have gotten a reasonably friendly, stable and non-revolutionary Mexico on its border on the cheap if it had just bitten the bullet and backed Huerta's regime (unpleasant though the man was) back in 1913-14 - didn't have to send him troops or anything, just recognized his presidency and continued providing him with weapons & loans. Damn Woodrow Wilson and his schizophrenic sense of idealism.
 
As Tooze pointed out the purpose of that novel departure was to seek to divide the allies and win over the US to pressuring the ending of reparations. Which of course the allies needed to pay for US debts.

In terms of Stresemann's views:

Page 4

" In the dreadnought race Stresemann was a consistent advocate of the imperial fleet"

"After 1914 he was among the Reichstag's most aggressive advocates of all out U-boat war. But even in his most annexationist moments, Stresemann was above all motivated by an economic logic centred on the United States., The expansion of German territory to include Belgium, the French coastline to Calais, Morocco and extensive territory in the east was 'necessary' to secure for Germany an adequate platform for competition with America."

Page 5

Having talked about the concessions argued for to get better relations with the US, which included ending the campaign of passive opposition to the Franco-Belgium occupation of the Rhur but meant he was accused by the right of being a 'French candidate' it goes on to say

"Of course, nothing could be further from the truth. Stresemann was in every respect a full-blooded German nationalist. He never distanced himself from the annexationist positions he had adopted during WWI, because he saw no reason to regret them. Nor was he ever willing to accept as a long term solution the eastern border with Poland as defined by the 1921 plebiscite and League of Nation decision. His strategy, which relied on manipulating the interlocking interests of the United States, Britain and France, was simply more complex than the confrontational mode favoured by the ultra-nationalists."

Steve

PS I do find some very strange statements in Tooze's book. For instance a page later he refers to the system set up as enabling the Germans to repay the reduced reparations via US loans, which meant that the British and French could get the money to repair wardebts without having to open their markets to German goods. Since Britain had no trade barriers untikl 1931 when it finally abandon free trade this is an odd error.

Then a bit later on, talking of planned German rearmament before Hitler came to power there is mention of 21 divisions along with small armoured and air units he casually mentions 'this wouldn't breach the Versailles agreement when it most definitely would. Germany was explicitly limited to 100,000 men in their army and forbidden both armour and military aircraft. - checked and this is on p26.

Using diplomacy and economics to change the Versailles order-with the consent of the Allies themselves-is about as far from starting a World War as one can get. Yes, Stresemann was a German nationalist who never apologized for wanting his nation to win World War I (Really, why should he have?), but to focus in on that ignores the entire context of what Tooze outlines both in the paragraph that's pulled from as well as the succeeding chapters. Their loss in the aforementioned conflict created the Stresemann faction, which sought to utilize Germany's continued economic strength to leverage better terms vis-a-vis reparations. That this would also play into a diplomatic strategy to positively rectify their Eastern border is also part of their planning. As Tooze directly notes, this isn't all that different from what the Germans have been doing since 1945 and is indeed the model for it; we haven't a Third World War, have we?

As for the specific questions, the "barriers" have to do with things beyond tariffs, particularly currency issues related to the reparations. As for the bit about the rearmament, the full context is he's talking about the opinion of the players at hand, not engaging in weird semantics.
 
Didn't the Philippines require a smaller American troop presence than any invasion and occupation of Mexico (even with the goal of installing a pro-US government rather than keeping the place in its entirety) likely would, though? IIRC there were a little over 100,000 US troops involved in the Philippine-American war, and the US garrisons there ended up numbering something like 20,000 men by the eve of WW2. I don't think the United States ever deployed a 200,000-strong occupation force there, nor did they ever need to, since the Filipinos never had as awful a relationship with them as the one the Mexicans developed and the Filipino army was one that was almost entirely comprised of guerrillas.

On the flipside, the Mexican factions had plenty of experience in both regular and irregular warfare thanks to the Revolution, and a much more historically troubled relationship with the Americans (over nationalism, foreign businesses, etc.) that - combined with how the Revolution was arguably the event that cemented and inflamed Mexican nationalism throughout all sectors of society, including the lowly peones who had felt little attachment to the concept of a Mexican nation during the Diaz years - is likely to make the American occupation much thornier than even the one in the Philippines, IMO. Furthermore, the small victories of the Pancho Villa Expedition will have further reinforced that nationalism and Mexican beliefs that hey, the Americans aren't invincible after all.

The Americans made use of many capable native allies in the Philippines to reduce the need for (white) American troops in the garrisons there, such as the Philippine Scouts and Philippine Division, but I don't think they'd find a proportionate number of similarly willing allies among the Mexican population for the above reasons. And if history is anything to go by, from the poor record of the Mexican Imperial Army to the even worse one of Huerta's hordes of undisciplined and unmotivated draftees, the collaborators they're going to pick up are unlikely to be as good (in no small part because the actually competent and motivated counter-revolutionary forces and leaders in Mexico, such as the Federal Rurales and Pascual Orozco respectively, have already been destroyed, died and/or hopelessly discredited by 1919). I don't believe anti-Catholic attitudes among the Americans will be so extreme that they'll spark off the Cristero rebellion on their own, but that said attitudes persist (and were getting worse than usual in the '20s, what with the rise of the Second KKK and all) means they're not all that likely to be able to recruit the men who would've been Cristeros (many of whom were devout peasants from the central Mexican states, but their devotion to Christ the King didn't mean they didn't want land reform like the revolutionary peasantry, either...), as well.

I did mention the Banana Wars before, but those were much smaller affairs compared to the US occupation of the Philippines or worse still, the hypothetical occupation of Mexico. I don't think the US government ever sent more than a few thousand Marines to Haiti, Honduras and Nicaragua, and in all three cases that was enough, but they're all far smaller than Mexico population and geography-wise. The Banana Wars were easy enough to keep out of the general population's sight and mind due to their small size and the comparatively low cost (both in money and manpower) the USG had to pay to wage them, but I don't think that'd be the case with Mexico at all, since as you say the US would likely need to keep an army in the hundreds of thousands to maintain order there for at least several years (if not the entire first decade of the occupation, which I believe to be more likely).

As far as the Red Scare goes, I do agree that that would be a good motivator to keep going, but it'd be hard to sustain after a couple of years unless the Mexican rebellions come to be dominated by actual Communists. If figures like Tomas Garrido, who looked up to the Bolsheviks and even considered himself one, took over, then sure, the threat becomes real enough to justify sticking around until, at the very least, they've been destroyed totally. But if obviously non-Communist characters like Obregon manage to stick around, I can't really picture the post-WW1 US public not getting tired of the fighting and starting to vote in politicians who want to negotiate sensible terms with their ilk soon enough, probably by the late 1920s or early 1930s.

Honestly though, I believe the USA could have gotten a reasonably friendly, stable and non-revolutionary Mexico on its border on the cheap if it had just bitten the bullet and backed Huerta's regime (unpleasant though the man was) back in 1913-14 - didn't have to send him troops or anything, just recognized his presidency and continued providing him with weapons & loans. Damn Woodrow Wilson and his ludicrous levels of racism

FTFY. Wilson was only idealistic about white people’s rights, man didn’t give a shit about Mexicans, blacks, or anyone else (part of the reason for the 1915 intervention in Haiti was because he didn’t want blacks at home getting “ideas” about pesky things like constitutional rights.
 
Didn't the Philippines require a smaller American troop presence than any invasion and occupation of Mexico (even with the goal of installing a pro-US government rather than keeping the place in its entirety) likely would, though? IIRC there were a little over 100,000 US troops involved in the Philippine-American war, and the US garrisons there ended up numbering something like 20,000 men by the eve of WW2. I don't think the United States ever deployed a 200,000-strong occupation force there, nor did they ever need to, since the Filipinos never had as awful a relationship with them as the one the Mexicans developed and the Filipino army was one that was almost entirely comprised of guerrillas.

On the flipside, the Mexican factions had plenty of experience in both regular and irregular warfare thanks to the Revolution, and a much more historically troubled relationship with the Americans (over nationalism, foreign businesses, etc.) that - combined with how the Revolution was arguably the event that cemented and inflamed Mexican nationalism throughout all sectors of society, including the lowly peones who had felt little attachment to the concept of a Mexican nation during the Diaz years - is likely to make the American occupation much thornier than even the one in the Philippines, IMO. Furthermore, the small victories of the Pancho Villa Expedition will have further reinforced that nationalism and Mexican beliefs that hey, the Americans aren't invincible after all.

The Americans made use of many capable native allies in the Philippines to reduce the need for (white) American troops in the garrisons there, such as the Philippine Scouts and Philippine Division, but I don't think they'd find a proportionate number of similarly willing allies among the Mexican population for the above reasons. And if history is anything to go by, from the poor record of the Mexican Imperial Army to the even worse one of Huerta's hordes of undisciplined and unmotivated draftees, the collaborators they're going to pick up are unlikely to be as good (in no small part because the actually competent and motivated counter-revolutionary forces and leaders in Mexico, such as the Federal Rurales and Pascual Orozco respectively, have already been destroyed, died and/or hopelessly discredited by 1919). I don't believe anti-Catholic attitudes among the Americans will be so extreme that they'll spark off the Cristero rebellion on their own, but that said attitudes persist (and were getting worse than usual in the '20s, what with the rise of the Second KKK and all) means they're not all that likely to be able to recruit the men who would've been Cristeros (many of whom were devout peasants from the central Mexican states, but their devotion to Christ the King didn't mean they didn't want land reform like the revolutionary peasantry, either...), as well.

I did mention the Banana Wars before, but those were much smaller affairs compared to the US occupation of the Philippines or worse still, the hypothetical occupation of Mexico. I don't think the US government ever sent more than a few thousand Marines to Haiti, Honduras and Nicaragua, and in all three cases that was enough, but they're all far smaller than Mexico population and geography-wise. The Banana Wars were easy enough to keep out of the general population's sight and mind due to their small size and the comparatively low cost (both in money and manpower) the USG had to pay to wage them, but I don't think that'd be the case with Mexico at all, since as you say the US would likely need to keep an army in the hundreds of thousands to maintain order there for at least several years (if not the entire first decade of the occupation, which I believe to be more likely).

As far as the Red Scare goes, I do agree that that would be a good motivator to keep going, but it'd be hard to sustain after a couple of years unless the Mexican rebellions come to be dominated by actual Communists. If figures like Tomas Garrido, who looked up to the Bolsheviks and even considered himself one, took over, then sure, the threat becomes real enough to justify sticking around until, at the very least, they've been destroyed totally. But if obviously non-Communist characters like Obregon manage to stick around, I can't really picture the post-WW1 US public not getting tired of the fighting and starting to vote in politicians who want to negotiate sensible terms with their ilk soon enough, probably by the late 1920s or early 1930s.

Honestly though, I believe the USA could have gotten a reasonably friendly, stable and non-revolutionary Mexico on its border on the cheap if it had just bitten the bullet and backed Huerta's regime (unpleasant though the man was) back in 1913-14 - didn't have to send him troops or anything, just recognized his presidency and continued providing him with weapons & loans. Damn Woodrow Wilson and his schizophrenic sense of idealism.

The Philippine War featured 126,000 American soldiers deployed to fight the insurgency, so yes, it was lower in raw terms but in terms of proportion it was not in comparison to what would be needed to occupy Mexico. The Philippines in 1900 had 6.5 Million, which means the 126,000 Americans resulted in a ~50:1 ratio, the same proposed for Mexico with 14.3 Million and 290,000 Americans. The material basis for sustaining such a force long term is, I think, also good. In 1919, Army Chief of Staff Peyton Marsh proposed a standing force of 500,000 men, with Congress ultimately approving a force of roughly 290,000 in 1921. This was without a conflict with Mexico to establish a firm need for more, nor with a militaristic President to help push it through Congress by cheerleading it with the backing of the already existing war faction.

Beyond the basic material pre-conditions of a conventional phase followed by an effective occupation, there are other factors to consider. One major factor of U.S. success in both the Banana Wars as well as the Philippines was the American ability to limit outside assistance to the insurgencies, which mean limited supplies of weapons, funds, and obviously no training of guerilla forces could occur. This would hold true for Mexico especially, given the U.S. Navy controls the Americas firmly and Mexico's land borders are either with the United States itself or client regimes in the case of Central America. With American Armies holding the cities and outside aid impossible, any insurgency will rapidly die off for lack of an ability to logistically sustain itself. Outside of the local specifics, one also has to ask who would be willing to do so in the first place? The German Empire is no longer around and the RSFSR is currently fighting for its life. Japan maybe would have some interest, but the logistics aren't there because they literally don't have the bases to do such.

Moving beyond the material aspects, I also think American morale would be pretty solid here. If the American public could stomach an Imperialist conflict of conquest in the case of the Philippines from 1898 to 1913, I don't see why they couldn't for Mexico. The economic incentives are there; besides the obvious captive market attraction, the Philippines was viewed as a means to an end to expand trade with China while several American oil companies desired to protect their vested interests in Mexico. Besides the economic-which also drove the Banana Wars in the 1920s-there are also deeper, nationalistic concerns at play. For one, Mexican Revolution had resulted in quite a bit of spill over that resulted in hundreds of dead Americans, and this was a particularly contentious point for many Americans. After all, had the U.S. not went to war with Germany over an equal crime in contemporary times? Just as American economic exploitation had engendered Anti-Americanism within Mexico, the same had occurred on the opposite side of the border, as evidenced by some of the political figures and others I quoted in the OP.

There was also national security concerns at play to. While we have the benefit of hindsight to say the Mexican Revolution was not Marxist, the perception, as cited from the source material, was to the opposite in the contemporary timeframe. Congress was producing allegations and material to suggest Bolsheviks were in control or, at least, deeply influential within Mexico. This had wide dissemination among the American public, and also came as it did in the First Red Scare. That this fear carried on in the form of the Palmer Raids and a refusal to recognize the USSR until the 1930s, is well known. A direct conflict, instigated upon the basis of these beliefs in part, would only deepen said beliefs in my estimation.
 
Using diplomacy and economics to change the Versailles order-with the consent of the Allies themselves-is about as far from starting a World War as one can get. Yes, Stresemann was a German nationalist who never apologized for wanting his nation to win World War I (Really, why should he have?), but to focus in on that ignores the entire context of what Tooze outlines both in the paragraph that's pulled from as well as the succeeding chapters. Their loss in the aforementioned conflict created the Stresemann faction, which sought to utilize Germany's continued economic strength to leverage better terms vis-a-vis reparations. That this would also play into a diplomatic strategy to positively rectify their Eastern border is also part of their planning. As Tooze directly notes, this isn't all that different from what the Germans have been doing since 1945 and is indeed the model for it; we haven't a Third World War, have we?

As for the specific questions, the "barriers" have to do with things beyond tariffs, particularly currency issues related to the reparations. As for the bit about the rearmament, the full context is he's talking about the opinion of the players at hand, not engaging in weird semantics.

Actually the barriers were tariffs and for you to say that Stresemann didn't want to see an expanded Germany - which could only be achieved by force - is you engaging in weird semantics - given the points I quoted. Plus I would think that not being guilty about seeking to annex to Germany a vast area of solely non-German territory would suggest he had learnt nothing from the war. Stresemann was using divide and rule tactics because with the military defeat of Germany it was the only way he had to seeking to weaken the allies.

Having military or armoured units, or having more than 100,000 troops in their army were direct breaches of the Versailles treaty. That is a fact. We're talking here about what assorted pre-Hitler right wing governments were planning to put into effect. Not what they hoped to do in some distant future.
 
The Philippine War featured 126,000 American soldiers deployed to fight the insurgency, so yes, it was lower in raw terms but in terms of proportion it was not in comparison to what would be needed to occupy Mexico. The Philippines in 1900 had 6.5 Million, which means the 126,000 Americans resulted in a ~50:1 ratio, the same proposed for Mexico with 14.3 Million and 290,000 Americans. The material basis for sustaining such a force long term is, I think, also good. In 1919, Army Chief of Staff Peyton Marsh proposed a standing force of 500,000 men, with Congress ultimately approving a force of roughly 290,000 in 1921. This was without a conflict with Mexico to establish a firm need for more, nor with a militaristic President to help push it through Congress by cheerleading it with the backing of the already existing war faction.

Beyond the basic material pre-conditions of a conventional phase followed by an effective occupation, there are other factors to consider. One major factor of U.S. success in both the Banana Wars as well as the Philippines was the American ability to limit outside assistance to the insurgencies, which mean limited supplies of weapons, funds, and obviously no training of guerilla forces could occur. This would hold true for Mexico especially, given the U.S. Navy controls the Americas firmly and Mexico's land borders are either with the United States itself or client regimes in the case of Central America. With American Armies holding the cities and outside aid impossible, any insurgency will rapidly die off for lack of an ability to logistically sustain itself. Outside of the local specifics, one also has to ask who would be willing to do so in the first place? The German Empire is no longer around and the RSFSR is currently fighting for its life. Japan maybe would have some interest, but the logistics aren't there because they literally don't have the bases to do such.

Moving beyond the material aspects, I also think American morale would be pretty solid here. If the American public could stomach an Imperialist conflict of conquest in the case of the Philippines from 1898 to 1913, I don't see why they couldn't for Mexico. The economic incentives are there; besides the obvious captive market attraction, the Philippines was viewed as a means to an end to expand trade with China while several American oil companies desired to protect their vested interests in Mexico. Besides the economic-which also drove the Banana Wars in the 1920s-there are also deeper, nationalistic concerns at play. For one, Mexican Revolution had resulted in quite a bit of spill over that resulted in hundreds of dead Americans, and this was a particularly contentious point for many Americans. After all, had the U.S. not went to war with Germany over an equal crime in contemporary times? Just as American economic exploitation had engendered Anti-Americanism within Mexico, the same had occurred on the opposite side of the border, as evidenced by some of the political figures and others I quoted in the OP.

There was also national security concerns at play to. While we have the benefit of hindsight to say the Mexican Revolution was not Marxist, the perception, as cited from the source material, was to the opposite in the contemporary timeframe. Congress was producing allegations and material to suggest Bolsheviks were in control or, at least, deeply influential within Mexico. This had wide dissemination among the American public, and also came as it did in the First Red Scare. That this fear carried on in the form of the Palmer Raids and a refusal to recognize the USSR until the 1930s, is well known. A direct conflict, instigated upon the basis of these beliefs in part, would only deepen said beliefs in my estimation.

The problem with this scenario is what happens if/when the Mexicans refuse to accept occupation? It doesn't need an outside ally to enable a national resistance, although that is a great help. Your talking about occupying the cities but that leaves the bulk of the country in Mexican control. Along with the problem of protecting supply lines for those garrisons.

Yes the US did go for a military intervention against Germany, after several years and multiple acts of aggression by the Germans. However they also, despite seeing relatively little actual combat compared to the other big players, quickly developed a strong aversion to the conflict so getting support for a prolonged occupation of Mexico could be a big issue. Especially when the dead bodies steadily mount up. The US, even with a more imperialistic President isn't 1930/40's Japan so I doubt they will have the will to stay for more than a few years at the most. Plus as more and more destruction occurs your going to see little capacity for US business to make profits.

Congress, like many political institutions can [and often does:(] say what it likes and often with little basis in reality. However when US soldiers, let alone reporters, see what's actually going on and how much BS that is about communism there could be a strong reaction back in the US.

Steve
 
FTFY. Wilson was only idealistic about white people’s rights, man didn’t give a shit about Mexicans, blacks, or anyone else (part of the reason for the 1915 intervention in Haiti was because he didn’t want blacks at home getting “ideas” about pesky things like constitutional rights.
I know, that's why I said his idealism was 'schizophrenic'. Peoples like the Czechs and Armenians may have benefited from his presence at Versailles, but the likes of the Arabs and Chinese sure didn't see a whole lot of his supposed benevolence and commitment to democracy at the same talks, nor did the various Latin Americans and Haitians whose countries he invaded to bring 'order' and 'democracy' to.
The Philippine War featured 126,000 American soldiers deployed to fight the insurgency, so yes, it was lower in raw terms but in terms of proportion it was not in comparison to what would be needed to occupy Mexico. The Philippines in 1900 had 6.5 Million, which means the 126,000 Americans resulted in a ~50:1 ratio, the same proposed for Mexico with 14.3 Million and 290,000 Americans. The material basis for sustaining such a force long term is, I think, also good. In 1919, Army Chief of Staff Peyton Marsh proposed a standing force of 500,000 men, with Congress ultimately approving a force of roughly 290,000 in 1921. This was without a conflict with Mexico to establish a firm need for more, nor with a militaristic President to help push it through Congress by cheerleading it with the backing of the already existing war faction.

Beyond the basic material pre-conditions of a conventional phase followed by an effective occupation, there are other factors to consider. One major factor of U.S. success in both the Banana Wars as well as the Philippines was the American ability to limit outside assistance to the insurgencies, which mean limited supplies of weapons, funds, and obviously no training of guerilla forces could occur. This would hold true for Mexico especially, given the U.S. Navy controls the Americas firmly and Mexico's land borders are either with the United States itself or client regimes in the case of Central America. With American Armies holding the cities and outside aid impossible, any insurgency will rapidly die off for lack of an ability to logistically sustain itself. Outside of the local specifics, one also has to ask who would be willing to do so in the first place? The German Empire is no longer around and the RSFSR is currently fighting for its life. Japan maybe would have some interest, but the logistics aren't there because they literally don't have the bases to do such.

Moving beyond the material aspects, I also think American morale would be pretty solid here. If the American public could stomach an Imperialist conflict of conquest in the case of the Philippines from 1898 to 1913, I don't see why they couldn't for Mexico. The economic incentives are there; besides the obvious captive market attraction, the Philippines was viewed as a means to an end to expand trade with China while several American oil companies desired to protect their vested interests in Mexico. Besides the economic-which also drove the Banana Wars in the 1920s-there are also deeper, nationalistic concerns at play. For one, Mexican Revolution had resulted in quite a bit of spill over that resulted in hundreds of dead Americans, and this was a particularly contentious point for many Americans. After all, had the U.S. not went to war with Germany over an equal crime in contemporary times? Just as American economic exploitation had engendered Anti-Americanism within Mexico, the same had occurred on the opposite side of the border, as evidenced by some of the political figures and others I quoted in the OP.

There was also national security concerns at play to. While we have the benefit of hindsight to say the Mexican Revolution was not Marxist, the perception, as cited from the source material, was to the opposite in the contemporary timeframe. Congress was producing allegations and material to suggest Bolsheviks were in control or, at least, deeply influential within Mexico. This had wide dissemination among the American public, and also came as it did in the First Red Scare. That this fear carried on in the form of the Palmer Raids and a refusal to recognize the USSR until the 1930s, is well known. A direct conflict, instigated upon the basis of these beliefs in part, would only deepen said beliefs in my estimation.
Even assuming a more overtly imperialistic president than Harding got elected in 1920, is that really any guarantee that Congress would be willing to approve a military almost twice the size of what existed IOTL? To my understanding the Republicans had held the House since 1916 and the Senate since 1918, but the prevailing mood within the party itself was isolationism, especially with the conservative wing that had regained ascendancy over the TR-esque progressives. If the Republicans themselves weren't so averse to expensive foreign entanglements, they probably wouldn't have been so determined to scrap Wilsonian foreign policy in favor of as much of a reversion to splendid isolation as possible. And just because Leonard Wood himself is a Republican isn't a guarantee that Congress would go along with his demands for a stronger military, since if I remember rightly, his candidacy was opposed by those ascendant conservatives and supported by the declining progressives.

I don't think lack of foreign support would be fatal to any Mexican insurgency. They have quite a bit of relevant experience in both conventional and irregular warfare, they have the numbers and motivation, and in the case of the Zapatistas of the south they've already shown their ability to survive, and even thrive, despite a complete lack of a sophisticated war industry (as Mexico's southern provinces were their poorest and least industrialized, and the Zapatistas were an agrarian and consequently entirely rural-based movement which spent the Revolution fighting out of mountains and jungles). Yeah, the Americans' superior firepower and industrial might will let them grind the Mexicans into dust eventually, but I don't think it'd be a remotely 'rapid' victory and in all honesty it would probably take longer than the American public was willing to put up with. Even the Haitian cacos and Nicaraguan rebels kept coming back for more for years, and these were forces far smaller and less experienced than the Zapatistas, Villistas, etc.

Also as you say, there are other factors to consider than the purely military ones (as there always are when it comes to insurgency), and I notice you've yet to address the big one I brought up previously - the factor of Mexican politics. I must ask again, who do you think the Americans can trust to helm their Mexican puppet government? It must be someone who can (as Stevep described in an earlier post) simultaneously satisfy American demands while retaining enough domestic legitimacy to not actually be perceived as a total American lackey, since otherwise the Americans might as well just assume direct control and annex Mexico themselves. Of course the problem is that no such figure exists by 1919-20, as far as I'm aware: Felix Diaz is the most powerful conservative around but his tiny army hasn't been relevant for four years (and his main field commander, General Blanquet, is hated almost as much as his former superior Huerta was), the future Cristero leadership are still obscure parish priests or campesinos for the most part, and Wilson's earlier erratic & contradictory Mexican policies have managed to piss every other faction (and with them, all the big names of the Revolution) off for years.

I don't think any American resentment over Pancho Villa's raids was strong enough to motivate a longstanding occupation of Mexico, nor was the Red Scare necessarily conducive to starting foreign wars. Punitive expeditions like the one that tried and failed to catch Villa, certainly, but not a long-term occupation. If it were, the Americans had plenty of chances to act on such feelings throughout the 1920s - not just over those raids and kidnappings, but also over the Mexican seizure of foreign property, and certainly the Cristero War would have represented a golden opportunity to topple the revolutionary regime - but they never did.

Moreover, if anti-Communism were a strong motivator for intervening abroad, the Polar Bear Expedition should have been much larger and more determined to crush the Bolsheviks, but they weren't - and in Mexico, that Garrido figure I linked to previously was actually made Governor of Tabasco twice by the revolutionary government, and he literally named his kids after Vladimir Lenin and had a private militia that marched around singing the Internationale as they shot clerics and landowners (the Camisas Rojas). Yet America still did not do anything about him or the government that patronized him even after he was appointed Secretary of Agriculture (no points for guessing what his preferred agricultural policies were). If American anti-Communism of the 20s had resembled the later doctrine of rollback, Garrido's prominence should have been reason enough for them to back the Cristeros to the hilt in the middle of the decade.

But as it was, I think the First Red Scare was more of an internally focused phenomenon and would remain such in the event of an American occupation of Mexico, unless Garrido and his ilk did indeed become the main leaders of the anti-American insurgency. Which I don't think was all that likely, the Zapatista peasant rebels most prominent in the south where he'd been appointed governor were Catholic devotees in their own common, folkish way and marched under banners depicting the Virgin Mary - he'd have to go north, a long way away from home, to find like-minded anticlerical and bourgeois rebels, and they'd have their own established leadership who won't make many concessions to a Tabasqueno like him.

Finally, while the American public might have the will to throw punitive expeditions at Mexico over the Columbus raid and other transgressions, the Mexican public has been given a lot more reasons to dislike the Americans than vice-versa. Even avoiding the obvious issues further back in history, just in the timeframe of the Revolution they've already had the Veracruz and Pancho Villa expeditions (both of which were far more destructive than the Columbus raid, and Veracruz in particular was utterly ill-founded) on top of the ongoing economic exploitation which had attracted popular anger even before Porfirio Diaz fell. I really don't think I can understate just how much nationalistic fury those incursions inspired: the Veracruz intervention briefly gave Victoriano Huerta, a man who by the time it happened was loathed by pretty much every Mexican alive except his top generals & a handful of big landowners and whose name had become a byword for a brutal but thoroughly corrupt & inefficient dictatorship, thousands of motivated regular volunteers for the first time in his reign (of course, they lost all that motivation & drive when they realized he lied about sending them to fight the American invaders rather than other Mexicans). And of course, the Pancho Villa expedition ironically stabilized Venustiano Carranza's own declining regime and allowed him to cast himself as a genuine defender of Mexican sovereignty even in the eyes of his harshest critics, even though he had been Wilson's favorite Mexican up until then.

Suffice to say, I think that by 1919 the Mexican will to outlast an American occupation is quite a bit stronger than the American will to sustain such an occupation, and that's a key factor in determining the success or failure of any nation-building effort of this scale.
 
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Snip of multiple good points.

The only quibble I have is that it isn’t just the Republicans who are isolationist; that’s the general mood of the country as a whole. If Wilson hadn’t been such an Anglophile it’s quite possible we stay out of World War I altogether. That does have some knock-on effects like a lack of a military enlargement in the interwar years and World War II (which is inevitable in one form or another).

But the U.S. really isn’t interested in actually occupying all of Mexico...the borders we had then (and now) are sufficient to establish us as the premier power in the Americas. A Mexico that’s bogged down in civil war is actually quite useful, since it can’t possibly threaten the U.S., nor can Canada.
 
The only quibble I have is that it isn’t just the Republicans who are isolationist; that’s the general mood of the country as a whole. If Wilson hadn’t been such an Anglophile it’s quite possible we stay out of World War I altogether. That does have some knock-on effects like a lack of a military enlargement in the interwar years and World War II (which is inevitable in one form or another).

But the U.S. really isn’t interested in actually occupying all of Mexico...the borders we had then (and now) are sufficient to establish us as the premier power in the Americas. A Mexico that’s bogged down in civil war is actually quite useful, since it can’t possibly threaten the U.S., nor can Canada.

Agree but the initial argument was that Mexico would be annexed to the US as an happy set of provinces/states or later as a more friendly and economically larger Philippines like colony/protectorate which would have a big impact on later US actions. I think we all agree this seems to be somewhat unlikely.
 
The only quibble I have is that it isn’t just the Republicans who are isolationist; that’s the general mood of the country as a whole. If Wilson hadn’t been such an Anglophile it’s quite possible we stay out of World War I altogether. That does have some knock-on effects like a lack of a military enlargement in the interwar years and World War II (which is inevitable in one form or another).

But the U.S. really isn’t interested in actually occupying all of Mexico...the borders we had then (and now) are sufficient to establish us as the premier power in the Americas. A Mexico that’s bogged down in civil war is actually quite useful, since it can’t possibly threaten the U.S., nor can Canada.
Agree but the initial argument was that Mexico would be annexed to the US as an happy set of provinces/states or later as a more friendly and economically larger Philippines like colony/protectorate which would have a big impact on later US actions. I think we all agree this seems to be somewhat unlikely.
To add to all that, the sociopolitical context even within the US itself at the time of the Philippine war and this hypothetical Mexican invasion & occupation is rather different, isn't it? The US of 1898-1901 hadn't fought a large foreign war since 1812, had just easily defeated Spain (whose empire was already in terminal decline long before the US kicked its badly-rotten doors in), and had enjoyed decades of rapid growth with few hiccups since the Civil War. The US of 1919-1921 meanwhile did just come out of WW1, which despite their late & relatively limited involvement had killed over 100,000 American soldiers and badly spooked the public re: foreign entanglements, and was also suffering from the post-war recession and depression. None of that seems conducive to getting the American people on-board with yet another long and expensive occupation of a large foreign country.
 
To add to all that, the sociopolitical context even within the US itself at the time of the Philippine war and this hypothetical Mexican invasion & occupation is rather different, isn't it? The US of 1898-1901 hadn't fought a large foreign war since 1812, had just easily defeated Spain (whose empire was already in terminal decline long before the US kicked its badly-rotten doors in), and had enjoyed decades of rapid growth with few hiccups since the Civil War. The US of 1919-1921 meanwhile did just come out of WW1, which despite their late & relatively limited involvement had killed over 100,000 American soldiers and badly spooked the public re: foreign entanglements, and was also suffering from the post-war recession and depression. None of that seems conducive to getting the American people on-board with yet another long and expensive occupation of a large foreign country.

Well, we did reoccupy the Philippines after the war. The thing is, Mexico has historically been a basket case, and so long as they’re a mess and unable to menace the CONUS, the U.S. doesn’t really give a shit. Being tied up in a civil war was just as effective, arguably more so since it guaranteed there was no common enemy for them to unite against and kept them weak without the U.S. even getting involved.

So it’s not only unlikely, it’s a practical impossibility even if World War I hadn’t involved significant casualties: American idealism is such that unless we are under threat, it’s live and let live. Pick a fight with us, however, and you will regret it.

Edit: At least that was the mentality prior to World War II. It’s still present in the American psyche, though, hence why calls to end Afghanistan and Iraq are generally popular.
 
Actually the barriers were tariffs and for you to say that Stresemann didn't want to see an expanded Germany - which could only be achieved by force - is you engaging in weird semantics - given the points I quoted. Plus I would think that not being guilty about seeking to annex to Germany a vast area of solely non-German territory would suggest he had learnt nothing from the war. Stresemann was using divide and rule tactics because with the military defeat of Germany it was the only way he had to seeking to weaken the allies.

Having military or armoured units, or having more than 100,000 troops in their army were direct breaches of the Versailles treaty. That is a fact. We're talking here about what assorted pre-Hitler right wing governments were planning to put into effect. Not what they hoped to do in some distant future.

You said yourself Britain did not have tariffs until 1931, so which way is it? Focusing in on Stresemann, you're willfully misquoting and distorting what Tooze wrote, however:

It would be wrong, of course, to deny that there are continuities that connect all sides in the strategic debate in Germany in the 1920s and 1930s to the imperialist legacy of the Wilhelmine era.3 Hostility towards the French and Poles and imperial designs on Germany's neighbours both in the West and in the East were nothing new. However, an excessive stress on continuity obscures the transformative impact on German politics of the defeat of November 1918 and the traumatic crisis that followed. This agony reached its climax in 1923 when the French occupied the Ruhr, the industrial heart of the German economy. Over the following months, as Berlin sponsored a mass campaign of passive resistance, the country descended into hyperinflation and political disorder so severe that by the autumn of 1923 it called into question the survival of the German nation-state as such.4 Strategic debate in Germany was never the same again. On the one hand, the crisis of 1918-23 gave rise to an ultra-nationalism - in the form of the radical wing of the DNVP and Hitler's Nazi party - that was more apocalyptic in its intensity than anything prior to 1914. On the other hand, it also produced a truly novel departure in German foreign and economic policy. This alternative to nationalist militancy also aimed to achieve a revision of the onerous terms of the Treaty of Versailles. But it aimed to do so not by gambling on military force. Instead, Weimar's foreign policy prioritized the economy as the main field within which Germany could still exercise influence in the world. Above all, it sought security and leverage for Germany by developing financial connections with the United States and closer industrial integration with France. In certain key respects, this clearly anticipated the strategy pursued by West Germany after 1945. It was a policy that enjoyed the backing of all of the parties of the Weimar coalition - the Social Democrats, the left liberal DDP and the Catholic Centre party. But it was personified by Gustav Stresemann, leader of the national liberals, the DVP, and Germany's Foreign Minister between 1923 and 1929.5​
Your assertion about nothing have been learned is wrong and directly noted as such by the text, as is the suggestion that the Germans could only rectify their Eastern border via military conflict which is, again, directly contradicted by Tooze. Hell, your own quotations from the text directly not Stresemann adopted his diplomatic and economic strategy as a result of the German defeat in 1918/1919.

Specifically as it pertains to the early 1930s rearmament plans, it's important to note Stresemann died years before those were proposed but, even then, Tooze notes that this didn't make a World War inevitable no more than the 1950s creation of the West German military did. Specifically as it pertains to that point:

lucxei4z40o01.jpg
 
Even assuming a more overtly imperialistic president than Harding got elected in 1920, is that really any guarantee that Congress would be willing to approve a military almost twice the size of what existed IOTL? To my understanding the Republicans had held the House since 1916 and the Senate since 1918, but the prevailing mood within the party itself was isolationism, especially with the conservative wing that had regained ascendancy over the TR-esque progressives. If the Republicans themselves weren't so averse to expensive foreign entanglements, they probably wouldn't have been so determined to scrap Wilsonian foreign policy in favor of as much of a reversion to splendid isolation as possible. And just because Leonard Wood himself is a Republican isn't a guarantee that Congress would go along with his demands for a stronger military, since if I remember rightly, his candidacy was opposed by those ascendant conservatives and supported by the declining progressives.

We don't have to assume Congress would approve a military in 1920 because in 1919 said force already existed; total U.S. Armed Forces strength in 1919 was 1,172,602 of whom 851,624 were U.S. Army. They did do further demobilizations in 1920 but that was in the context of a peace time situation, which wouldn't hold here because of the obvious war situation. It's also worth noting this war wasn't "out of the blue" but had bipartisan support and was being aggressively pushed by the Republicans who were ascendant in Congress, with Senator Fall being a Republican. To quote from Woodrow Wilson and the Mexican Interventionist Movement of 1919:

From mid-November until the reconvening of Congress in December, the related crises deepened. Jenkins, advised by Matthew Hanna of the state department, refused to pay the nominal bail set by the Puebla court and called upon the United States government to secure his freedom. Lansing responded by sending strong notes to the Carranza government urging it to release Jenkins immediately. When the Mexican Foreign Office reminded Lansing that in a federal republic the central government may not interfere with state jurisprudence, the secretary was angered.62 He held a stormy interview with Ambassador Bonillas on November 28 and threatened that, if Jenkins were not released immediately, a "tide of indignation" among the American people might prevent further diplomatic discussion and force a break in relations which would almost inevitably mean war 63 On the next day Lansing sent the Mexican Foreign Office a harsh, insolent note containing a peremptory demand that Jenkins be released immediately. Although he had not heeded Fletcher's advice of November 21 to give Carranza forty-eight hours to free Jenkins or have the United States sever diplomatic relations, Lansing had taken strong action. The sending of the peremptory demand to an apparently unyielding Carranza government had moved the two countries to the brink of war.​
The Republican controlled Senate responded favorably to Lansing's well-publicized initiatives. After conferring with Fletcher at the state department, Senator Brandegee wired Fall to postpone his subcommittee's investigations in the West and return to Washington, because no action could be taken without him. On December 1, state department officials met Fall at the train station and drove him to Lansing's home. Following a pattern set in mid-November, Lansing gave Fall copies of his diplomatic correspondence with Mexico; and the two men discussed the Mexican crises. Lansing explained that he was acting on his own initiative without the knowledge of President Wilson. Fall told Lansing that his subcommittee would make an official report to the Senate and that he would introduce a resolution upholding Lansing's hand.65​

As far as Leonard Wood goes, he was viewed as a conservative by 1920 as a result of his intense Anti-Bolshevism and Americanism stances.

I don't think lack of foreign support would be fatal to any Mexican insurgency. They have quite a bit of relevant experience in both conventional and irregular warfare, they have the numbers and motivation, and in the case of the Zapatistas of the south they've already shown their ability to survive, and even thrive, despite a complete lack of a sophisticated war industry (as Mexico's southern provinces were their poorest and least industrialized, and the Zapatistas were an agrarian and consequently entirely rural-based movement which spent the Revolution fighting out of mountains and jungles). Yeah, the Americans' superior firepower and industrial might will let them grind the Mexicans into dust eventually, but I don't think it'd be a remotely 'rapid' victory and in all honesty it would probably take longer than the American public was willing to put up with. Even the Haitian cacos and Nicaraguan rebels kept coming back for more for years, and these were forces far smaller and less experienced than the Zapatistas, Villistas, etc.

It would be fatal, because how else can an insurgency survive without weapons and munitions? The Mexican Revolution was possible because of entities like the United States and German Empire funneling weapons into the region, while the Mexican factions themselves held the cities and thus means of producing their own equipment but neither possibility exists here. Numbers, motivation and experience are all well and good, but they don't produce effective results in the fields without the industrial capacity to back them up; see the German Army in 1945 for a good example. Likewise, the Zapatistas did find their support in the agrarian areas but they also lost said Mexican Revolution and ended up having to make peace with the Mexican government, so I fail to see why they would be more successful against a more powerful opponent.

As for the Banana War conflicts, yes, the U.S. had to fight an anti insurgency campaign for years; I see the same happening here with Mexico. That doesn't detract from the fact, however, that American willpower failed to break and in the end the U.S. was able to enforce its political desires. Just as you've pointed out Mexico had experience with both irregular and conventional warfare, so too did the United States but also a force size and industry many times over that than what Mexico possessed. The 400,000 troops the U.S. could use in the conventional phase of the conflict is nearly twice as large as what any side in the Mexican Revolution could deploy, for example.

Also as you say, there are other factors to consider than the purely military ones (as there always are when it comes to insurgency), and I notice you've yet to address the big one I brought up previously - the factor of Mexican politics. I must ask again, who do you think the Americans can trust to helm their Mexican puppet government? It must be someone who can (as Stevep described in an earlier post) simultaneously satisfy American demands while retaining enough domestic legitimacy to not actually be perceived as a total American lackey, since otherwise the Americans might as well just assume direct control and annex Mexico themselves. Of course the problem is that no such figure exists by 1919-20, as far as I'm aware: Felix Diaz is the most powerful conservative around but his tiny army hasn't been relevant for four years (and his main field commander, General Blanquet, is hated almost as much as his former superior Huerta was), the future Cristero leadership are still obscure parish priests or campesinos for the most part, and Wilson's earlier erratic & contradictory Mexican policies have managed to piss every other faction (and with them, all the big names of the Revolution) off for years.

I've touched on it earlier, in that this is why I think a long standing occupation is likely. There is no ready alternative to the existing order available for the U.S. to use, so they will have to build one from scratch the same way the United States had to in both Iraq and Afghanistan in modern times. The motivation is certainly there, because it would be obvious to Washington that a withdraw would result in a hostile government coming into power on the southern border, an intolerable national security threat.

I don't think any American resentment over Pancho Villa's raids was strong enough to motivate a longstanding occupation of Mexico, nor was the Red Scare necessarily conducive to starting foreign wars. Punitive expeditions like the one that tried and failed to catch Villa, certainly, but not a long-term occupation. If it were, the Americans had plenty of chances to act on such feelings throughout the 1920s - not just over those raids and kidnappings, but also over the Mexican seizure of foreign property, and certainly the Cristero War would have represented a golden opportunity to topple the revolutionary regime - but they never did.

Such ignores the specific political circumstances unique to 1919, however, namely that the First Red Scare was going on and still intense at the time before gradually declining in fervor over the course of the 1920s. There was also nothing comparable to the situation faced in 1919, in that isolated attacks on personal property did not threaten American economic interests the same way nationalizing the extremely large and profitable holdings held in oil did, nor did murder or kidnapping of Americans occur in such a way as the Jenkins Affair, which also broke international standards with regards to diplomats. An American citizen paying a fatal price after willingly taking personal risk is one thing, but attack an American official and than having the Mexican Government arrest him on allegations he planned his own kidnapping is quite another.

Moreover, if anti-Communism were a strong motivator for intervening abroad, the Polar Bear Expedition should have been much larger and more determined to crush the Bolsheviks, but they weren't - and in Mexico, that Garrido figure I linked to previously was actually made Governor of Tabasco twice by the revolutionary government, and he literally named his kids after Vladimir Lenin and had a private militia that marched around singing the Internationale as they shot clerics and landowners (the Camisas Rojas). Yet America still did not do anything about him or the government that patronized him even after he was appointed Secretary of Agriculture (no points for guessing what his preferred agricultural policies were). If American anti-Communism of the 20s had resembled the later doctrine of rollback, Garrido's prominence should have been reason enough for them to back the Cristeros to the hilt in the middle of the decade.

See what I said earlier about the changed politics, but also the situation of Garrido's rise and American investment in Mexico. The U.S. trusted the wider government by that point and didn't have a vested interest in their agricultural sector like they did in the energy sector.

But as it was, I think the First Red Scare was more of an internally focused phenomenon and would remain such in the event of an American occupation of Mexico, unless Garrido and his ilk did indeed become the main leaders of the anti-American insurgency. Which I don't think was all that likely, the Zapatista peasant rebels most prominent in the south where he'd been appointed governor were Catholic devotees in their own common, folkish way and marched under banners depicting the Virgin Mary - he'd have to go north, a long way away from home, to find like-minded anticlerical and bourgeois rebels, and they'd have their own established leadership who won't make many concessions to a Tabasqueno like him.

Finally, while the American public might have the will to throw punitive expeditions at Mexico over the Columbus raid and other transgressions, the Mexican public has been given a lot more reasons to dislike the Americans than vice-versa. Even avoiding the obvious issues further back in history, just in the timeframe of the Revolution they've already had the Veracruz and Pancho Villa expeditions (both of which were far more destructive than the Columbus raid, and Veracruz in particular was utterly ill-founded) on top of the ongoing economic exploitation which had attracted popular anger even before Porfirio Diaz fell. I really don't think I can understate just how much nationalistic fury those incursions inspired: the Veracruz intervention briefly gave Victoriano Huerta, a man who by the time it happened was loathed by pretty much every Mexican alive except his top generals & a handful of big landowners and whose name had become a byword for a brutal but thoroughly corrupt & inefficient dictatorship, thousands of motivated regular volunteers for the first time in his reign (of course, they lost all that motivation & drive when they realized he lied about sending them to fight the American invaders rather than other Mexicans). And of course, the Pancho Villa expedition ironically stabilized Venustiano Carranza's own declining regime and allowed him to cast himself as a genuine defender of Mexican sovereignty even in the eyes of his harshest critics, even though he had been Wilson's favorite Mexican up until then.

Suffice to say, I think that by 1919 the Mexican will to outlast an American occupation is quite a bit stronger than the American will to sustain such an occupation, and that's a key factor in determining the success or failure of any nation-building effort of this scale.

Basically, and no disrespect intended, your argument boils down to Will to Power based on Nationalistic desires. It's understandable position, but it isn't reflected well in the real world; could one say the Filipinos, the Central Americans, Caribbean peoples, or even Native Americans were less motivated? How about the Germans and Japanese in World War II? Motivation to fight is an important factor, but it isn't, on its own, decisive in Insurgency contexts. Even the Iraq War, despite its unpopularity, saw the U.S. willpower last long enough to install a government that still to this day more or less stands in control of Iraq. Unlike said conflict, however, the U.S. would and did have a lot of motivation to fight a war in Mexico in the timeframe.
 
You said yourself Britain did not have tariffs until 1931, so which way is it? Focusing in on Stresemann, you're willfully misquoting and distorting what Tooze wrote, however:

That was my point. There were no barriers to German exports to Britain and the bulk of its empire. [I say the bulk because I have read a while back that the goverment of India had introduced tariffs, including against British good but can't remember when that was. The Dominions of course pretty much imposed tariffs as soon as they could, which again including Britain as well as other nations but they were outside British control so they don't count.

[/QUOTE]It would be wrong, of course, to deny that there are continuities that connect all sides in the strategic debate in Germany in the 1920s and 1930s to the imperialist legacy of the Wilhelmine era.3 Hostility towards the French and Poles and imperial designs on Germany's neighbours both in the West and in the East were nothing new. However, an excessive stress on continuity obscures the transformative impact on German politics of the defeat of November 1918 and the traumatic crisis that followed. This agony reached its climax in 1923 when the French occupied the Ruhr, the industrial heart of the German economy. Over the following months, as Berlin sponsored a mass campaign of passive resistance, the country descended into hyperinflation and political disorder so severe that by the autumn of 1923 it called into question the survival of the German nation-state as such.4 Strategic debate in Germany was never the same again. On the one hand, the crisis of 1918-23 gave rise to an ultra-nationalism - in the form of the radical wing of the DNVP and Hitler's Nazi party - that was more apocalyptic in its intensity than anything prior to 1914. On the other hand, it also produced a truly novel departure in German foreign and economic policy. This alternative to nationalist militancy also aimed to achieve a revision of the onerous terms of the Treaty of Versailles. But it aimed to do so not by gambling on military force. Instead, Weimar's foreign policy prioritized the economy as the main field within which Germany could still exercise influence in the world. Above all, it sought security and leverage for Germany by developing financial connections with the United States and closer industrial integration with France. In certain key respects, this clearly anticipated the strategy pursued by West Germany after 1945. It was a policy that enjoyed the backing of all of the parties of the Weimar coalition - the Social Democrats, the left liberal DDP and the Catholic Centre party. But it was personified by Gustav Stresemann, leader of the national liberals, the DVP, and Germany's Foreign Minister between 1923 and 1929.5​
Your assertion about nothing have been learned is wrong and directly noted as such by the text, as is the suggestion that the Germans could only rectify their Eastern border via military conflict which is, again, directly contradicted by Tooze. Hell, your own quotations from the text directly not Stresemann adopted his diplomatic and economic strategy as a result of the German defeat in 1918/1919.

Specifically as it pertains to the early 1930s rearmament plans, it's important to note Stresemann died years before those were proposed but, even then, Tooze notes that this didn't make a World War inevitable no more than the 1950s creation of the West German military did. Specifically as it pertains to that point:
[/QUOTE]

As I said in my quotes from Tooze, Stresemann never abandon his desire for annexations or regretted the efforts in WWI. He switched to an economic stance because Germany couldn't achieve its aims by military means. Furthermore it makes clear his aims were to split the allies and weakened Britain and France by ending reparations, as the 1st stage. What he might have done if he had lived longer and those aims had been achieved early we don't know. I never said he would have used military methods if he had been about at a later stage when rearmament started, but given what Tooze said about him its quite possible.

I pointed out rearmament started before Hitler came to power and the planned programme pre-Hitler was a direct breach of the Versailles Treaty. My argument, given this and the militarist aims of those groups, which seemed to have widespread support, was that the collapse of the Wiemar Republic and victory of right wing elements in the depression pretty much meant that a conflict with a revanchist Germany was very likely. It could have gone better or worse for the allies and the world, we have no way of knowing.
 

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