Russian-Ukrainian-Polish Eternal Friendship Thread

Agent23 said:

You can help reform it instead of demand more money be misspent.

Click to expand...

Naively optimistic.As long as the big players do things this way, there is nothing anyone else can do.

Agent23 said:

Also I haven't seen you decline EU money on principal grounds.

Click to expand...

Lol, this is international politics, not an educational tale for children.

Agent23 said:

What spoils are you fantasizing about?
Is perhaps China paying you to drive Russia into their hands?
You think that Russia will bend over and somebody willing to lick Poland's boots will get elected at some point?


I doubt that.

Click to expand...

Implying Russia isn't already in China's hands.
Ukraine and Belarus. If Russia doesn't take them over completely, chances are they will gravitate to the west.

Marduk said:

Naively optimistic.As long as the big players do things this way, there is nothing anyone else can do.

Lol, this is international politics, not an educational tale for children.

Implying Russia isn't already in China's hands.
Ukraine and Belarus. If Russia doesn't take them over completely, chances are they will gravitate to the west.

Click to expand...

Belarus already told the West to BTFO.
Poland, if it had put more energy into cultivating euro-skeptic, even euro-confederate and euro-moderate alliances within the EU and focusing more on economic growth, could have become the rallying force behind a broader reform movement.
Instead you decided to shill for Ukraine, the Neocucks and the US and UK neolibs, which probably lost you a lot of euroskeptics that dislike the idea of being Anglo puppets.

Agricultural workers and the Western Ukrainian farmlands can be a plus, but knowing how well most farm land and wheat fields have been turned into low-producing EU subsidy sponges, well, I wouldn't hold my breath.
Also, you and your Russophobic allies just might lose on a lot of EU money because it will have to be rerouted to Ukraine.
In addition, do you think that suddenly the Belarussians will start liking you and deferring to you and become a part of some great Polish sphere of influence?
Also, might I also remind you that the Big Dogs in the EU apparently don't see the cost/benefit the way you do, and have lost appetite for those places, geez, maybe they know and understand more than you do?
Hint, they won't, they will do as the paymasters in Brussels and Berlin and Paris order them to do and backstab you, hard and often.
Oh, might I also remind you that the Big Dogs in the EU apparently don't see the cost/benefit the way you do, and have lost appetite for those places, geez, maybe they know and understand more than you do?
Also, might I also remind you that the Big Dogs in the EU apparently don't see the cost/benefit the way you do, and have lost appetite for those places, geez, maybe they know and understand more than you do?
Hell,considering how you invaded those places on a few occasions you'd be giving Brussels the chance to play divide et impera even more.
Oh, and there is of course the other problem with EU expansion, more cheap outsourcing sites and cheap worker sources will hit wages, and only the big Western corpos stand to benefit.
Also, thank you for admitting that much of your motivation for being a Russophobe and for all the often self-contradictory stuff you've posted in this thread is brought about by Polish expansionist fantasies.

Agent23 said:

Belarus already told the West to BTFO.

Click to expand...

No, Lukashenko did. Lukashenko is not God-Emperor, he won't live forever.

Agent23 said:

Poland, if it had put more energy into cultivating euro-skeptic, even euro-confederate and euro-moderate alliances within the EU and focusing more on economic growth, could have become the rallying force behind a broader reform movement.
Instead you decided to shill for Ukraine, the Neocucks and the US and UK neolibs, which probably lost you a lot of euroskeptics that dislike the idea of being Anglo puppets.

Click to expand...

With who? We have V4, we had good relations with UK when it still was in the EU and still do, we have good relations with Orban, we oppose green idiocy no less than anyone else.
What else do you want? Shilling for Russia's interests? Sorry, that's no better than Brussels.

Agent23 said:

Agricultural workers and the Western Ukrainian farmlands can be a plus, but knowing how well most farm land and wheat fields have been turned into low-producing EU subsidy sponges, well, I wouldn't hold my breath.
Also, you and your Russophobic allies just might lose on a lot of EU money because it will have to be rerouted to Ukraine.

Click to expand...

Just like PIGS lost their EU money because of the eastern and southern expansions of the EU. Oh wait...

Agent23 said:

In addition, do you think that suddenly the Belarussians will start liking you and deferring to you and become a part of some great Polish sphere of influence?
Hint, they won't, they will do as the paymasters in Brussels and Berlin and Paris order them to do and backstab you, hard and often.

Click to expand...

So at worst this will be just like most of the rest of EU, got it.

Agent23 said:

Hell,considering how you invaded those places on a few occasions you'd be giving Brussels the chance to play divide et impera even more.

Click to expand...

When was that, and we can always blame Lithuanians
In reality, Polish government is naturally interested in public opinions of Belarusians, and it turns out they are not the obedient Russia shills you imagine them to be, these huge protests didn't come out of nowhere, nor out of CIA conspiracy.

The poll’s main findings:

• 43% of Belarusians consider Russia to be the greatest threat to the territorial integrity of Belarus, the highest figure among the countries surveyed (21% of respondents consider Poland’s policy a threat, 20% that of Lithuania, and 18% that of other countries). Paradoxically, this does not affect the very positive perception of Russia (86% of respondents) and the Russian people (96%), or of Vladimir Putin himself, who enjoys the support of 60% of Belarusians. However, the results above may indicate that the perception of Russia in the eyes of the Belarusian people is gradually changing.
• 74% of Belarusians declared a positive attitude towards Poland, and 83% towards the Polish people. 19% of Belarusians expressed a dislike of Poland, and 11% of Poles. The respondents like the Russians, Germans and Ukrainians more (but not the Ukrainian state); Lithuanians less so. Most respondents (52%) view Poland’s policy towards Belarus during the current political crisis in a positive light, while 27% of respondents evaluate it negatively.

Click to expand...

Long story short, we have a much better position in the court of public opinion in Belarus than in Lukashenko's court.

Agent23 said:

Oh, and there is of course the other problem with EU expansion, more cheap outsourcing sites and cheap worker sources will hit wages, and only the big Western corpos stand to benefit.

Click to expand...

Already happening anyway, will happen regardless.

Agent23 said:

Also, thank you for admitting that much of your motivation for being a Russophobe and for all the often self-contradictory stuff you've posted in this thread is brought about by Polish expansionist fantasies.

Click to expand...

Ah, so if Russia, largest country in the world with a giant nuclear arsenal, is paranoid and wants friendly buffer states on its borders for extra strategic depth, that's totally reasonable, but if Poland, a mid sized country with no nuclear arsenal bordering the above wants that, then its being crazy and having expansionist fantasies?

Marduk said:

*SNIP*

Click to expand...

Good job dude, maybe, possibly, etc wishful thinking.
60% of Belarussians are pro-Russian, which is more than enough of a majority to keep then in an alliance.

Lukashenko was actually trying to play both sides, and before a few people decided to force his hand Balarus was a de facto buffer state already.
Ukraine was a buffer state before the EU and the US-backed Maidan nonsense.

A buffer would ideally be neither aligned to one side, nor to the other, like Austria and Finland.

You helped make the porridge, now it is time for you to slurp it up.

Marduk said:

Ah, so if Russia, largest country in the world with a giant nuclear arsenal, is paranoid and wants friendly buffer states on its borders for extra strategic depth, that's totally reasonable, but if Poland, a mid sized country with no nuclear arsenal bordering the above wants that, then its being crazy and having expansionist fantasies?

Click to expand...

Stop contradicting yourself, m8, you said spoils, you did not say buffer states.

Just man up and admit it already, this is all a manifestation of the Polish inferiority complex and empty expansionist ambitions.

Agent23 said:

Primary objective sources or nothing, buster.

Now, back on topic.

Frankly, Ukraine with some of its manufacturing industries and large, fertile soil fields could have been a better acquisition for the EU if we had gotten that in tact.

They were supposed to also have shale oil, but that turned out to be a lie.

Partitioning the place and getting all the wheat growing areas might also be a boon for us and that way both sides will be happy, IMHO.

Just let the East and the West have a peaceful divorce, then the EU can take the agricultural West.Frankly we also need agricultural workers all over as well and a lot of subsidies are agricultural in nature.
Of course that will actually require tougher anti-corruption and anti-misuse measures.

The new country joins some EU-wide framework for collective security guaranteeing that European countries will defend it, but not NATO, and it will not host any foreign troops or weapons.

I am of course describing the EUrophile dream scenario.

Click to expand...

This is one if like...200 articles about this.

Zachowon said:

This is one if like...200 articles about this.

Russia issues list of demands it says must be met to lower tensions in Europe

Contentious security guarantees Moscow is seeking include a ban on Ukraine from entering Nato

www.theguardian.com

Click to expand...

Any sources beyond the ones that say Trump was a Russian asset and that call gamers Nazis?
You know, the libtard rags that you linked, such as the Guardian, or the most trusted name in fake news, aka Communist News Network?

Putin demands West ‘immediately’ guarantee no more NATO expansion.

Russian President Vladimir Putin demanded Thursday that the West “immediately” guarantee that NATO will not expand to include Ukraine and blamed the US for inflaming tensions in Eastern Europe and increasing the likelihood of war.


Putin fielded questions for about four hours at his annual year-end news conference, during which he reiterated his calls for NATO to halt its expansion to former Soviet republics, as well as his opposition to the West deploying missile systems near the Russian border.


When asked during the marathon session whether he could guarantee that he will not invade Ukraine, the Russian leader snapped: “It’s you who must give us guarantees and give them immediately, now, and not have idle talk about it for decades.”


“How would the Americans respond if we put our missiles on the US borders with Canada or Mexico?” he said.

Click to expand...

Agent23 said:

Good job dude, maybe, possibly, etc wishful thinking.
60% of Belarussians are pro-Russian, which is more than enough of a majority to keep then in an alliance.

Lukashenko was actually trying to play both sides, and before a few people decided to force his hand Balarus was a de facto buffer state already.
Ukraine was a buffer state before the EU and the US-backed Maidan nonsense.

A buffer would ideally be neither aligned to one side, nor to the other, like Austria and Finland.

You helped make the porridge, now it is time for you to slurp it up.



Stop contradicting yourself, m8, you said spoils, you did not say buffer states.

Just man up and admit it already, this is all a manifestation of the Polish inferiority complex and empty expansionist ambitions.

Click to expand...

1.Łukashenko really tried to made contact with Poland,we always refused,and now he is Moscow puppet.Pity,we could made bussines together.

2.Russia is largest world country with nuclear weapons. If they demand buffer state they do so not becouse they feel afraid/what exactly?/ ,but becouse they wont invade Poland next.
I do not like Ukraine,but KGB-stan really do not look like reliable partner to any agreement - they would take what we gave them,and then come for rest.Becouse that is how they behawed after 2002.

P.S Funny picture,but what Rydz-Śmigły had to do with current politics ? he died 80 year ago,and nobody follow his steps in Poland.

Agent23 said:

Good job dude, maybe, possibly, etc wishful thinking.
60% of Belarussians are pro-Russian, which is more than enough of a majority to keep then in an alliance.

Click to expand...

Yet somehow 74% are pro-Poland

Agent23 said:

Lukashenko was actually trying to play both sides, and before a few people decided to force his hand Balarus was a de facto buffer state already.
Ukraine was a buffer state before the EU and the US-backed Maidan nonsense.

Click to expand...

No, Ukraine was a satellite state of Russia going off the leash too much lately.
Belarus is a more obedient one, on the way to an anschluss.

Yes, Lukashenko wanted to play both sides but only one side could effectively rein him in if he played boldly and it isn't us which guided how he played.

Agent23 said:

A buffer would ideally be neither aligned to one side, nor to the other, like Austria and Finland.

Click to expand...

Forgot that Austria and Finland are in the EU and joined mid Cold War at that?
Forgot how Russia threw a fit when Ukraine under Yanukovych wanted a mere association agreement with EU, which started the chain of events leading to Maidan?

Agent23 said:

Stop contradicting yourself, m8, you said spoils, you did not say buffer states.

Click to expand...

If buffer states aren't spoils, why the fuck is everyone fighting so hard to get them?
Of course naturally no one cares about neutrality, they want... biased buffer states.

Agent23 said:

Just man up and admit it already, this is all a manifestation of the Polish inferiority complex and empty expansionist ambitions.

Click to expand...

Sorry, you're not Spanish enough for an Inquisition larp.

Agent23 said:

Primary objective sources or nothing, buster.

Now, back on topic.

Frankly, Ukraine with some of its manufacturing industries and large, fertile soil fields could have been a better acquisition for the EU if we had gotten that in tact.

They were supposed to also have shale oil, but that turned out to be a lie.

Partitioning the place and getting all the wheat growing areas might also be a boon for us and that way both sides will be happy, IMHO.

Just let the East and the West have a peaceful divorce, then the EU can take the agricultural West.Frankly we also need agricultural workers all over as well and a lot of subsidies are agricultural in nature.
Of course that will actually require tougher anti-corruption and anti-misuse measures.

The new country joins some EU-wide framework for collective security guaranteeing that European countries will defend it, but not NATO, and it will not host any foreign troops or weapons.

I am of course describing the EUrophile dream scenario.

Click to expand...

But you yourself said Russia wants NATO to go back to its 97 era borders that means nothing east of Germany so you want us to abandon Poland as well that’s a non starter. It’s not happening. The days of the Russian empire and Soviets are not over and done.

King Arts said:

But you yourself said Russia wants NATO to go back to its 97 era borders that means nothing east of Germany so you want us to abandon Poland as well that’s a non starter. It’s not happening. The days of the Russian empire and Soviets are not over and done.

Click to expand...

I did not say they want NATO back to its 97 borders, they are pissed off and have zero trust for the west because they expanded it beyond those borders.

There is a difference between hating someone and placing demands on them.

Example, I hate that an idiot who makes noise moved in next door, I demanded that idiot make his fucking dog shut up and stop playing loud music at night.

I deployed automatic infrasonic dog repellers that get triggered by dog barking in my property as retaliation.

Result: No more dog barking, Idiot became less noisy overall, even saying, um, sorry about that, my bad.
At no point was Idiot evicted or was a demand made of him to move.

Even the president of Ukraine is saying Russia is going to invade....

Zachowon said:

Even the president of Ukraine is saying Russia is going to invade....

Click to expand...

Come on, you can't expect Americans to understand irony.

I'm just going off what I was given.

Marduk said:

Forgot that Austria and Finland are in the EU and joined mid Cold War at that?

Click to expand...

That's incorrect: They didn't join until 1995, well after the Cold War ended.

Marduk said:

If buffer states aren't spoils, why the fuck is everyone fighting so hard to get them?
Of course naturally no one cares about neutrality, they want... biased buffer states.

Click to expand...

A buffer state is a state that is in between two hostiles states or groups of hostiles. Austria remained neutral but largely pro-West, while Finland didn't want to be under Moscow's thumb but also recognized that they couldn't join NATO or the EU without risking an invasion by the Warsaw Pact.

In today's context, yes, Putin wants a freer hand in pushing around Ukraine (and any other neighbors not in NATO or the EU). But this isn't unique to him.

I will note that the people really driving this are the siloviki (basically, all the whining people do on here about the U.S. intelligence and foreign policy apparatus? Russia is basically RUN by these guys and in fact that's how Putin got into political office in the first place). They're the ones agitating for conflict and co-opting everyone else.

Whether it ultimately will be called off, I don't know. But it's certainly not due to Macron or Scholz; it's due to the fact that the U.S. and Britain both made it clear they would implement serious sanctions, and in Biden's case that means restoring sanctions on cutting off Nord Stream 2, something he notably lifted while trying to cozy up to Germany.

Anyway. We shall see. I'd prefer war not break out, but at the same time given how many Ukrainians from all walks of life have been going through civil defense drills...whatever Zelensky says, it's pretty clear much of the country doesn't believe him. And honestly, he may be saying it as much to try and not give the Russians any excuse to act. Or else he's just genuinely given in to wishful thinking.

As for Russia's level of honesty...their Ministry of Defense made a big deal out of "chasing off a British destroyer after firing warning shots and forcing them to change course" -only for it to come out that the destroyer in question was already heading away and hadn't even *noticed* any shots being fired.

So...we shall see I guess.

Rusty Shackleford said:

So basically, your opinion is based off Slav bravado over statistics or human nature?

And again, I never implied that there would be a massed guerilla movement so much as small acts of revenge terrorism here and there and maybe sabotage, which is in line with the very human concept of revenge.

I don't see a world where Putin occupies Ukraine effortlessly without a single casualty or with gulf war style win ratios as possible, certainty not a world where the Ukraine completely and wholly gets absorbed with no economic and domestic ramifications.

Click to expand...

Yep, think of Northern Ireland during The Troubles.

I'll believe an attack is happening when we have a statement from Zelensky saying such; till then it's all more 'wag the dog' bullshit.

Putting hard dates on it now means either there is something real going down, or that's when Biden is willing to start say he 'deterred' an invasion, to go from war hysteria to 'I averted a war by making Russia back down' kudos to try to bolster poll numbers before the midterms.

Bacle said:

I'll believe an attack is happening when we have a statement from Zelensky saying such; till then it's all more 'wag the dog' bullshit.

Click to expand...

Okay, great, but what if he decides to pull a Baghdad Bob and claim “there are no American Russian troops anywhere near Baghdad Kyiv!” during live news coverage while there are such troops in the background waving at the cameras?

I get that you’re distrustful of Western media but at some point you have to be honest and recognize that the guy you want to believe may in fact not be telling the truth or is not playing with a full deck.

Bacle said:

Putting hard dates on it now means either there is something real going down, or that's when Biden is willing to start say he 'deterred' an invasion, to go from war hysteria to 'I averted a war by making Russia back down' kudos to try to bolster poll numbers before the midterms.

Click to expand...

“Either the U.S. and its allies genuinely believe shit is going down in the very near future or they don’t because of political concerns” is rather asinine statement. And I’d point out that this belief of an invasion in early 2022 (that is, the present) is something that’s been predicted pretty consistently across the board. They aren’t saying they want it to happen (quite the opposite, in fact) but they think it will.

Not to mention I think you seriously overestimate how any sort of ability to defuse the situation would be in helping poll numbers. Even with things getting tense, inflation, the economy, and stupid COVID restrictions are far bigger concerns than “Hey we managed to convince Russia not to invade Ukraine” though that isn’t just a U.S. thing and it’s as much that we finally got around to shipping a crapload of weapons to the Ukrainians.

Airedale260 said:

That's incorrect: They didn't join until 1995, well after the Cold War ended.

Click to expand...

Hmm, we're both half right it seems. While they didn't join the proto-EU proper, aka the European Community, they did join EFTA, aka the "outer seven" of EC, which early on included even such non-neutral countries like UK and Denmark.
Austria joined at founding in 1960, while Finland became an associate member in 1961 and joined fully in 1985.

Airedale260 said:

A buffer state is a state that is in between two hostiles states or groups of hostiles. Austria remained neutral but largely pro-West, while Finland didn't want to be under Moscow's thumb but also recognized that they couldn't join NATO or the EU without risking an invasion by the Warsaw Pact.

Click to expand...

That's the theory, yes, but as you see in the real examples, what may officially be buffer states tend to have quite major leanings and influences that are very much favoring one side.

Bacle said:

I'll believe an attack is happening when we have a statement from Zelensky saying such; till then it's all more 'wag the dog' bullshit.

Putting hard dates on it now means either there is something real going down, or that's when Biden is willing to start say he 'deterred' an invasion, to go from war hysteria to 'I averted a war by making Russia back down' kudos to try to bolster poll numbers before the midterms.

Click to expand...

Zelensky has his own political issues to handle, and spreading panic is not his job, even if the panic would be justified.
The panic in itself is hurting Ukraine's weak economy.

Marduk said:

Hmm, we're both half right it seems. While they didn't join the proto-EU proper, aka the European Community, they did join EFTA, aka the "outer seven" of EC, which early on included even such non-neutral countries like UK and Denmark.

Austria joined at founding in 1960, while Finland became an associate member in 1961 and joined fully in 1985.

Click to expand...

Outer Seven of the major European countries (UK, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Portugal, and Denmark). Unlike the ECSC/EEC, though, the aim was to promote free trade only, not try and lay the foundations for a politically integrated Europe -something that had actually been attempted with France trying to lead the way in terms of getting West Germany re-armed and under European (read: French) political control. And since both Sweden and Switzerland had refused to fight in either of the World Wars and hadn’t joined NATO, it was pretty clear Austria wasn’t breaking its pledge of neutrality.

If EFTA had had political ambitions, though, I doubt Moscow would have been anywhere near as sanguine.

Marduk said:

That's the theory, yes, but as you see in the real examples, what may officially be buffer states tend to have quite major leanings and influences that are very much favoring one side.

Click to expand...

Right, hence why I’m not comfortable with the idea of a Finlandized Ukraine.