What if the Hapsburgs inherit the thrones of England, France, and Poland?

J

johnreiter

Well-known member
The Hapsburg Empire encompassed much of Europe in the 16th century, but what if it had been even larger? This has several PODs

1555: Mary I of England's false pregnancy is real, and she gives birth to a son (named Edward). When she dies in 1558, 3 year old Edward is crowned King Edward VII of England, Wales and Ireland, with his father Philip as regent until he reaches his majority. This establishes the dynasty of the English Hapsburgs. In 1572, Philip celebrates his son's majority by giving him the Burgundian inheritance

1566: Elisabeth of Valois, instead of giving birth to a daughter (OTL Isabella Clara Eugenia) instead gives birth to a son, named Charles after his grandfather. Later, in 1594, Henry III of Navarre refuses to embrace Catholicism, and Prince Charles of Spain is crowned as King Charles X of France, establishing the French Hapsburgs

1587: Maximilian III, Archduke of Austria, receives the full support of his brother, Emperor Rudolf II, to press his claim for the throne of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. He wins the Battle of Byczyna, and defeats Sigismund of Sweden, thus beginning the dynasty of the Polish Hapsburgs
 
Last edited:
johnreiter said:
The Hapsburg Empire encompassed much of Europe in the 16ht century, but what if it had been even larger? This has several PODs

1555: Mary I of England's false pregnancy is real, and she gives birth to a son (named John, or Juan in Spain). When she dies in 1558, 3 year old John is crowned King John II of England, Wales and Ireland, with his father Philip as regent until he reaches his majority. This establishes the dynasty of the English Hapsburgs

1566: Elisabeth of Valois, instead of giving birth to a daughter (OTL Isabella Clara Eugenia) instead gives birth to a son, named Charles after his grandfather. Later, in 1594, Henry III of Navarre refuses to embrace Catholicism, and Prince Charles of Spain is crowned as King Charles X of France, establishing the French Hapsburgs

1587: Maximilian III, Archduke of Austria, receives the full support of his brother, Emperor Rudolf II, to press his claim for the throne of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. He wins the succession war, and defeats Sigismund of Sweden, thus beginning the dynasty of the Polish Hapsburgs
Click to expand...
1.Possible,and we would have Spain-friendly catholic England.
2.Not possible,Henry III would not refuse throne if it lead to spaniards on both his borders.Besides,we have spanish friendly England here,so everybody in France would be against it,too.
3.Possible,it could happen in OTL.

What next? we have ERE-Spain-England-PLC alliance here - opposed by France,turks and Moscov.Sweden or Denmark,too./they hated each other,so if Sweden fough Habsburgs,Denmark would ally with them and vice versa/

Series of war would eventually lead to situation where France is divided between Spain,England and HRE, turks kicked out of Europe,and Moscov burned to the ground for good.

France kicked out from America.Maybe even catholic Japan or/and China here.
 
ATP said:
2.Not possible,Henry III would not refuse throne if it lead to spaniards on both his borders.Besides,we have spanish friendly England here,so everybody in France would be against it,too
Click to expand...
Hmm, how about this

Isabella Clara Eugenia is born just as in OTL. Later, in 1594, Charles, Duke of Guise successfully claims the throne of France and defeats Henry III. Instead of pushing for his daughter Isabella to become sovereign queen of France. Philip supports Charles, on the condition that Charles marry Isabella.

We don't get French Hapsburgs, but at least they are now in-laws. Is this more plausible?
 
  • Like
Reactions: ATP
johnreiter said:
Hmm, how about this

Isabella Clara Eugenia is born just as in OTL. Later, in 1594, Charles, Duke of Guise successfully claims the throne of France and defeats Henry III. Instead of pushing for his daughter Isabella to become sovereign queen of France. Philip supports Charles, on the condition that Charles marry Isabella.

We don't get French Hapsburgs, but at least they are now in-laws. Is this more plausible?
Click to expand...
Yes,it could happen.But,in this scenario,with England and Poland in Habsburg hands France would still not be their friend becouse of politics.
All they could count for is neutrality as long as Habsburgs let France take some germans smaller states/not Bavaria/

But,as a result,France would keep part of America and India.
And Habsburgs could focus on crushing german protestants,turks and Moscov.

Much better world,i think.
 
ATP said:
Much better world,i think.
Click to expand...
to some people, perhaps.

of course, there would be less democracy, and technology would be less advanced, but that might not be a bad thing

my greatest concern would be that the counter-reformation would stall out, and the church, instead of reforming, would become more corrupt and end up a puppet of government interests (since, by this point, the Pope is really just a Habsburg puppet)
 
johnreiter said:
to some people, perhaps.

of course, there would be less democracy, and technology would be less advanced, but that might not be a bad thing

my greatest concern would be that the counter-reformation would stall out, and the church, instead of reforming, would become more corrupt and end up a puppet of government interests (since, by this point, the Pope is really just a Habsburg puppet)
Click to expand...
Yes,HRE emparors would be popes overlords here,surely bad thing.And Inquisition their secret police,like in Spain OTL.
But - still better then revolutions.

If you must choose between classical tyrant and soviet,or enlinghtened mason,ALWAYS choose tyrant.

They would fuck you less.
 
On Point #1, I've read that the Burgundian inheritance (mainly the Low Countries) was supposed to go to any son of Philip and Mary in case Philip's son by his first wife, Don Carlos, survived to succeed him. If Don Carlos were to die without any children, as he did IRL (he apparently became a violent psycho after a near-fatal head injury), then the son of Philip & Mary would get everything - Spain, the Low Countries and England. Either way it's very bad news for the Netherlands, which will see England go from a major ally to not even a neutral, but an active enemy during the early years of the Eighty Years' War.

(As an aside, I don't think a son of Phil & Mary would be named John, due to the poor reputation that name has among the English since the OG King John. Almost certainly not Henry either, owing to Mary's issues with her not-so-dear old dad and how he's responsible for Anglicanism being a thing in the first place. Edward is a little likelier IMO, it's a respectable and truly 'English' name associated with generally capable and beloved monarchs; but not by much, since the most recent Edward - her half-brother Edward VI - was a staunch Protestant. 'Philip' after the boy's dad or 'Charles' after his grandpa are the most likely choices of name for the first Habsburg King of England, methinks.)

As for the rest...sounds like Philip II should start preparing for his coronation as the first restored Western Roman Emperor, or if not him, then his descendants not too far down the road. A Habsburg-ruled or at minimum Habsburg-aligned France = Protestant defeat in the Thirty Years' War when/if that pops off, the French bankrolling Gustav Adolf (and later jumping into the fray themselves for political reasons when even he proved insufficient to defeat the Habsburgs) was critical to them not getting completely steamrolled by the early 1630s, meaning early German consolidation (and in all probability re-Catholicization, with the 1629 Edict of Restitution as only the starting point for Habsburg aims in this regard) under the Habsburgs. Adding Habsburg Poland-Lithuania into the mix can only make things even worse for that dynasty's enemies.

By 1700 I would expect to see a Habsburg WRE covering most of mainland Europe, from England to Sicily and from Portugal to Ukraine, probably using/having already used the undivided resources of the continent to kick the Ottomans toward or even over the Bosphorus. Protestantism would be reduced to a regional heresy stuck in Scandinavia, and Sweden/Denmark-Norway along with Russia would be regional rivals on this Habsburg juggernaut's periphery - persistent irritants and probably too far away from the main imperial centers of power/too populated with hostiles to Habsburg Catholicism to ever be totally destroyed, but not nearly strong enough to go on the offensive and lucky just to be able to defend what they still have. We're looking at a totally Catholic-dominated New World with players like England and France being worked into the Tordesillas partition as well, there probably won't be any Puritans (or enough of them to start a viable colony, at least) to come to Plymouth Rock ITL.

Tl;dr the Habsburg chin will replace the square jaw as a symbol of gigachad-ness in this timeline.
 
Circle of Willis said:
On Point #1, I've read that the Burgundian inheritance (mainly the Low Countries) was supposed to go to any son of Philip and Mary in case Philip's son by his first wife, Don Carlos, survived to succeed him. If Don Carlos were to die without any children, as he did IRL (he apparently became a violent psycho after a near-fatal head injury), then the son of Philip & Mary would get everything - Spain, the Low Countries and England. Either way it's very bad news for the Netherlands, which will see England go from a major ally to not even a neutral, but an active enemy during the early years of the Eighty Years' War.
Click to expand...
Thank you for this great information. I like the idea of Philip leaving the Burgundian inheritance to his English son. The Lowlands are closer to England both geographically and culturally, and would be easier to rule for the English.

The reason I did not leave the throne of Spain/Portugal to Philip and Mary's son, was that I assumed Philip would follow the example of his father Charles. An empire so vast would be too large and too diverse for one man to rule. So I decided he would leave the English throne (and the lowlands) to his older son, and the throne of Spain and Portugal to his younger son (OTL Philip III)
Circle of Willis said:
(As an aside, I don't think a son of Phil & Mary would be named John, due to the poor reputation that name has among the English since the OG King John. Almost certainly not Henry either, owing to Mary's issues with her not-so-dear old dad and how he's responsible for Anglicanism being a thing in the first place. Edward is a little likelier IMO, it's a respectable and truly 'English' name associated with generally capable and beloved monarchs; but not by much, since the most recent Edward - her half-brother Edward VI - was a staunch Protestant. 'Philip' after the boy's dad or 'Charles' after his grandpa are the most likely choices of name for the first Habsburg King of England, methinks.)
Click to expand...
I only chose John because it is a popular name in Spain, and the name of a former English monarch. I can change it easily. The name is not important to the timeline. I think I would go with Edward
 
Last edited:
Circle of Willis said:
On Point #1, I've read that the Burgundian inheritance (mainly the Low Countries) was supposed to go to any son of Philip and Mary in case Philip's son by his first wife, Don Carlos, survived to succeed him. If Don Carlos were to die without any children, as he did IRL (he apparently became a violent psycho after a near-fatal head injury), then the son of Philip & Mary would get everything - Spain, the Low Countries and England. Either way it's very bad news for the Netherlands, which will see England go from a major ally to not even a neutral, but an active enemy during the early years of the Eighty Years' War.

(As an aside, I don't think a son of Phil & Mary would be named John, due to the poor reputation that name has among the English since the OG King John. Almost certainly not Henry either, owing to Mary's issues with her not-so-dear old dad and how he's responsible for Anglicanism being a thing in the first place. Edward is a little likelier IMO, it's a respectable and truly 'English' name associated with generally capable and beloved monarchs; but not by much, since the most recent Edward - her half-brother Edward VI - was a staunch Protestant. 'Philip' after the boy's dad or 'Charles' after his grandpa are the most likely choices of name for the first Habsburg King of England, methinks.)

As for the rest...sounds like Philip II should start preparing for his coronation as the first restored Western Roman Emperor, or if not him, then his descendants not too far down the road. A Habsburg-ruled or at minimum Habsburg-aligned France = Protestant defeat in the Thirty Years' War when/if that pops off, the French bankrolling Gustav Adolf (and later jumping into the fray themselves for political reasons when even he proved insufficient to defeat the Habsburgs) was critical to them not getting completely steamrolled by the early 1630s, meaning early German consolidation (and in all probability re-Catholicization, with the 1629 Edict of Restitution as only the starting point for Habsburg aims in this regard) under the Habsburgs. Adding Habsburg Poland-Lithuania into the mix can only make things even worse for that dynasty's enemies.

By 1700 I would expect to see a Habsburg WRE covering most of mainland Europe, from England to Sicily and from Portugal to Ukraine, probably using/having already used the undivided resources of the continent to kick the Ottomans toward or even over the Bosphorus. Protestantism would be reduced to a regional heresy stuck in Scandinavia, and Sweden/Denmark-Norway along with Russia would be regional rivals on this Habsburg juggernaut's periphery - persistent irritants and probably too far away from the main imperial centers of power/too populated with hostiles to Habsburg Catholicism to ever be totally destroyed, but not nearly strong enough to go on the offensive and lucky just to be able to defend what they still have. We're looking at a totally Catholic-dominated New World with players like England and France being worked into the Tordesillas partition as well, there probably won't be any Puritans (or enough of them to start a viable colony, at least) to come to Plymouth Rock ITL.

Tl;dr the Habsburg chin will replace the square jaw as a symbol of gigachad-ness in this timeline.
Click to expand...
In PLC Habsburgs had its own party which wonted them crowned,and only reason why that not happened in 1588 was becouse they lost battle with Zamoyski in 1588.
Change that,or let Zamoyski support Habsburgs,and you have PLC in their hands.

Here,battle where they lost:https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj4jcrOsq2EAxXhXfEDHVtfAiAQFnoECBYQAQ&url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Byczyna&usg=AOvVaw0p8PV_o6pRCxUmmQIQgprg&opi=89978449

Thanks to that,they would get winged hussarls - which in 1588 could defeat any calvary or infrantry in open field.Combined with spanish tercios,it would gave army which could not be defeated,and win any siege.

P.S And polish light and medium calvary would help in quick taking over North American preria.I

P.P.S interesting TL where Habsburgs still lost in 1588 - their polish allies go to Mexico and help conqer more territories.
Result - no or much weaker USA.
 
Last edited:
I had some more thoughts on how this world might progress

It's possible that Edward VII will marry Mary, Queen of Scots, unifying the British isles under the Hapsburgs. She would only be 10 years older than him, which is far from insurmountable. IOTL, she was friendly with the Spanish, and a devout catholic.

Maximilian III considered marrying Anne Vasa, in order to strengthen his claim on the Polish throne. If he did that, that could also give the Hapsburgs a claim on the throne of Sweden. ITTL, the Swedish Empire will likely become the most powerful protestant nation left in Europe after the 30 Years War. Maybe, ITTL, we will see an alternate Northern War in the early 18th Century where Hapsburg Poland (have long since digested Russia) tries to conquer Sweden as well
 
  • Like
Reactions: ATP
johnreiter said:
I had some more thoughts on how this world might progress

It's possible that Edward VII will marry Mary, Queen of Scots, unifying the British isles under the Hapsburgs. She would only be 10 years older than him, which is far from insurmountable. IOTL, she was friendly with the Spanish, and a devout catholic.

Maximilian III considered marrying Anne Vasa, in order to strengthen his claim on the Polish throne. If he did that, that could also give the Hapsburgs a claim on the throne of Sweden. ITTL, the Swedish Empire will likely become the most powerful protestant nation left in Europe after the 30 Years War. Maybe, ITTL, we will see an alternate Northern War in the early 18th Century where Hapsburg Poland (have long since digested Russia) tries to conquer Sweden as well
Click to expand...
Possible.Sweden here would face entire Habsburg Europe,so they would lost.I do not like Habsburgs,but that world could be much better then our.
Although Habsburg Poland would be something different that my own,it would still exist and be free.

P.S About polish winged hussarls - in OTL they gradually trained less and less,and finally stopped be fighting force.Here- they could keep winning till 1800 or later.
 
Last edited:
More thoughts

The Treaty of Tordesillas is already rendered null and void by the unification of Portugal into Spain ITTL. This, plus the fact that France and England are now under the Hapsburgs, means that the new world will have to be re-divided.

One arrangment that seems fair to me would be this; Spain keeps all her old colonies, but gives La Florida to England to colonize (since they aren't really interested in it anyway). The French Hapsburgs receive the former Portuguese colonies in Africa and the access to the Indian Ocean through the Cape of Good Hope.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ATP
johnreiter said:
More thoughts

The Treaty of Tordesillas is already rendered null and void by the unification of Portugal into Spain ITTL. This, plus the fact that France and England are now under the Hapsburgs, means that the new world will have to be re-divided.

One arrangment that seems fair to me would be this; Spain keeps all her old colonies, but gives La Florida to England to colonize (since they aren't really interested in it anyway). The French Hapsburgs receive the former Portuguese colonies in Africa and the access to the Indian Ocean through the Cape of Good Hope.
Click to expand...
Good idea,but what would get polish Habsburgs ? Siberia?
 
ATP said:
Good idea,but what would get polish Habsburgs ? Siberia?
Click to expand...
Exactly. They have all that new frontier to the east to explore, and the land rout to Asia. Plus, they do not directly border the Atlantic, so maintaining colonies would be difficult (and, of course, once they digest Russia they will already be as powerful as Spain, no reason to make them more powerful)
 
  • Like
Reactions: ATP
johnreiter said:
Exactly. They have all that new frontier to the east to explore, and the land rout to Asia. Plus, they do not directly border the Atlantic, so maintaining colonies would be difficult (and, of course, once they digest Russia they will already be as powerful as Spain, no reason to make them more powerful)
Click to expand...
Good idea,we could have polish Habsburg fighting with English Habsburgs over Alasca and Canada here !
 
I came up with a plane for how Charles X of France and Philip III of Spain could deal with the question of Italy, now that France and Spain are ruled by brothers. They could each agree to give up their claims in Italy to another relative, and form a new Hapsburg Kingdom of Italy.

My choice would be Cardinal-Infante Ferdinand of Austria. He was considered as a possible candidate for the throne of France, and since he is a Cardinal of the Catholic Church, he has presumably spent much time in Rome and is familiar with the Italian people. Of course, the Pope would have to release him from his vows, but that's a minor detail since the Pope is a Hapsburg puppet at this point.

Philip will renounce his claim on the Kingdom of Naples to Ferdinand, and Charles will renounce his claim on Milan and it's subordinate territories to Ferdinand at the same time. They can then persuade their cousin, Rudolf II, to allow the Pope to crown Ferdinand as King of Italy with the iron crown of Lombardy (since the title King of Italy currently belongs to the Holy Roman Emperor, he would have to give it up). A little more Hapsburg pressure, and the Pope can also bestow on him the title of Duke of Romagna, and give him half the Papal States, which would link up his dominions in northern and Southern Italy.

At this point, King Ferdinand I of Italy has not only a legitimate title, but direct control of more than 2/3 of Italy to back it up. His only real rivals will be Florence and Venice. Rudolf will probably require, in exchange for the title King of Italy, that Venice be left alone. He needs the willing co-operation of the Venetians for his war to drive the Ottomans from the Balkans. The first act of King Ferdinand though will probably be to show what a great king he is by conquering the Republic of Florence, and bringing nearly all of Italy under his rule. The remaining little states in northern Italy will join up fast, keeping most of their power as feudal nobles under the new King.
 
Last edited:
johnreiter said:
I came up with a plane for how Charles X of France and Philip III of Spain could deal with the question of Italy, now that France and Spain are ruled by brothers. They could each agree to give up their claims in Italy to another relative, and form a new Hapsburg Kingdom of Italy.

My choice would be Cardinal-Infante Ferdinand of Austria. He was considered as a possible candidate for the throne of France, and since he is a Cardinal of the Catholic Church, he has presumably spent much time in Rome and is familiar with the Italian people. Of course, the Pope would have to release him from his vows, but that's a minor detail since the Pope is a Hapsburg puppet at this point.

Philip will renounce his claim on the Kingdom of Naples to Ferdinand, and Charles will renounce his claim on Milan and it's subordinate territories to Ferdinand at the same time. They can then persuade their cousin, Rudolf II, to allow the Pope to crown Ferdinand as King of Italy with the iron crown of Lombardy (since the title King of Italy currently belongs to the Holy Roman Emperor, he would have to give it up). A little more Hapsburg pressure, and the Pope can also bestow on him the title of Duke of Romagna, and give him half the Papal States, which would link up his dominions in northern and Southern Italy.

At this point, King Ferdinand I of Italy has not only a legitimate title, but direct control of more than 2/3 of Italy to back it up. His only real rivals will be Florence and Venice. Rudolf will probably require, in exchange for the title King of Italy, that Venice be left alone. He need the willing co-operation of the Venetians for his war to drive out the Ottomans from the Balkans. The First act of King Ferdinand though will probably be to show what a great king he is by conquering the Republic of Florence, and bringing nearly all of Italy under his rule. The remaining little states in northern Italy will join up fast, keeping most of their power as feudal nobles under the new King.
Click to expand...
Yep.Genua by that point was not important anymore,so there would be no problems there.
And,annexing them would made Venice happy,too !
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)
Back
Top