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Fallout Perpetual Debate of Bethesda Versus Interplay/Obsidian Fallout World Design

Scooby Doo

Well-known member
I've played 76. I remember launch very clearly. Bethesda was getting flamed online for scamming fans(nylon bags lmao), making a terrible game and applying no effort.
Yeah that's true, I knew it wasn't going to be good because they didn't include NPC's at launch 🤷


It was all fetch quests. I spent 100 hours just messing around in a game with no NPCs and a bunch of fetch quests. The next updates added NPCs but you can't fix the past. Especially when you add P2W mechanics.
Valid criticism but most mom's have P2W mechanics anyway so it shouldn't be a surprise

Bethesda isn't a friend. They are a corporation. They want money. I don't hate them for it. I just don't see a reason to defend them when they obviously have issues.
Bethesda isn't a friend definitely but the critique is about the most retarded shit, you have people literally whining about the architecture of a scrap city having holes.

Bitch about the Nylon Bags, bitch about the weak story, bitch about the voice acting but you guys decide to pick the hill of the most petty stupid shit.


Muh wood houses
Muh 200 years
Muh society


Then ignore those same issues being present in New Vegas. I don't have an issue with Bethesda getting criticism I have an issue with blatantly false and stupid criticism that's INCREDIBLY hypocritical.
 

Scooby Doo

Well-known member
Lmao, FO didn't launch a tabletop first, it was a game firstmost. You're being dishonest again so I'm going to just push aside whatever nonsense you've written. If you want a serious discussion, act serious please.
Cyberpunk was a board/tabletop game first which I actually played so try again 🤷
 

ThatZenoGuy

Zealous Evolutionary Nano Organism
Comrade
That's literally just like your personal opinion man, I'm not taking you serious on it being better when you couldn't explain exactly why NV crafting is better than Fallout 4's
Oh I can explain this with ease.

Its a primarily anti-player series of mechanics that is designed for time wasting and general artificial extension of the game rather than providing a fun experience.

FO4's crafting mechanics is inherently faulty because what it is, under the hood, is basically a replacement for the skills system and even worse is level-gated.

For comparison, in NV you could rush 100 Survival and craft high-level stuff early on, it let you have this as a choice.

In FO4 you are limited by the 'science!' or 'gunsmith!' perks you have, which you CANNOT rush due to FO4 having a level-gate system.

NV lets you get 'ahead of the curve' so to speak, rushing guns to craft custom ammo can give you an edge over your enemies, when at-best the perk system of FO4 is designed to keep you 'with the curve'. Its a manipulative and modern style of game design.

It also promoted the reduction in the number of guns, from level 1 to level 100 90% of the guns you will find will be various pipe weapons, whereas in NV you can find a complete utter olympic sized swimming pool of various guns ranging from refitted thompson laser guns, cowboy repeaters, 10m pistols, 9m pistols, hunting shotguns, anti materiel rifles and about a dozen explosive types.

The crafting for weapons was also far too straightforward, slap the biggest barrel, magazine and newest receiver on the gun, bam that's all it is. There's no benefit to more unique and varied designs. Its an illusionary mechanic which unfortunately fails the illusion part because we all see straight through its veneer.

Also, completely broke armor balance because a lot of effects stack in funny ways, so with ballistic weave and explosion-proofing you can basically become nigh-immortal to any form of damage while wearing light leather armor. This is inherently just a bad idea in a game series that heavily promotes equipment based progression.
 

Warmaster

Well-known member
Bethesda isn't a friend definitely but the critique is about the most retarded shit, you have people literally whining about the architecture of a scrap city having holes.

Bitch about the Nylon Bags, bitch about the weak story, bitch about the voice acting but you guys decide to pick the hill of the most petty stupid shit.


Muh wood houses
Muh 200 years
Muh society


Then ignore those same issues being present in New Vegas. I don't have an issue with Bethesda getting criticism I have an issue with blatantly false and stupid criticism that's INCREDIBLY hypocritical.
"People should stop complaining about game design and narrative choice."

I didn't complain till Fallout 4. Fallout 3 was crazy. It turned the franchise into a 3d game and deserves loads of praise. Fallout New Vegas was just a continuation of that.

Logically 4 would at least have better game design and not people living in shacks that would give them hypothermia.

You are complaining about our complaints of game design. That's wack. I guess its the "most retarded shit" to you.
 

Scooby Doo

Well-known member
"People should stop complaining about game design and narrative choice."
Complaining about design is fine complaining about narrative choice is stupid because there's reasons why they use shacks

I didn't complain till Fallout 4. Fallout 3 was crazy. It turned the franchise into a 3d game and deserves loads of praise. Fallout New Vegas was just a continuation of that.
We'rent you just complaining about holes in Megaton?

Logically 4 would at least have better game design and not people living in shacks that would give them hypothermia.
I know it's kinda hard to understand but there's this thing called fire, thick clothing you know stuff that DID get covered in expansion that took place in Commonwealth Winter.

🤷

Saying poor insulation = certain death is a childish approach. Of course this is a problem and its mitigated in universe with thicker clothing and sources of heat.
You are complaining about our complaints of game design. That's wack. I guess its the "most retarded shit" to you.
I'm complaining about your stupid arguments which too exist in New Vegas so I know it's just bullshit.

The Mojave Desert also would have people freezing their ass off way worse than the people in the Common Wealth but I don't hear anything bitching about it

🤷
 

mrttao

Well-known member
Show me a radroach sized hole, back up your claim or admit you're lying 🤷

Here I'll help you with showing you how big a Radroach is in Fallout 3
Radroach.jpg
Do you not understand what perspective is?
the big one is near the camera so it looks larger.
look at hte one near her head. it is roughly 4 inches in diameter. 10 inches in length.
it is the size of a CAT.

even if it was the size of an entire human. your earlier picture literally shows holes that big.

note the circled in red parts. where in your own zoomed out image you can clearly see some structural holes that could let in a human. much less a cat sized radroach

then there are all the windows everywhere that are missing glass. so its literally just a rectangle hole in the wall.
which again could let in a human. much less a radroach
and rad roaches can fly too.
 

mrttao

Well-known member

These radroaches are commonly found in the wasteland and look similar to real-life cockroaches. Radroaches were enlarged extensively by mutation, to the point that they are now as large as house cats.[1]
also, housecat is full sized adult rad roach. they hatch smaller and grow over time.

btw. IRL roaches bite sleeping humans.
 

Scooby Doo

Well-known member
Oh I can explain this with ease.

Its a primarily anti-player series of mechanics that is designed for time wasting and general artificial extension of the game rather than providing a fun experience.
Is that what's been said or are you just assuming it?

FO4's crafting mechanics is inherently faulty because what it is, under the hood, is basically a replacement for the skills system and even worse is level-gated.
No actually the perk system replaced the skill system.

For comparison, in NV you could rush 100 Survival and craft high-level stuff early on, it let you have this as a choice.
You can rush 100 Survival at the cost of sacrificing other skills. Effectively capping you to a mix max build if you wanted to get the most out of skills early game
In FO4 you are limited by the 'science!' or 'gunsmith!' perks you have, which you CANNOT rush due to FO4 having a level-gate system.
That's because in Fallout 4 there's no level cap, so you CAN get everything with enough time. You can only do this in New Vegas by mix maxing AND using DLC's

You're literally arguing that getting OP quicker is better
NV lets you get 'ahead of the curve' so to speak, rushing guns to craft custom ammo can give you an edge over your enemies,
So your argument is you can craft items faster?
You do know crafting takes certain perk slots that effectively omitt you from other perks overall reducing your freedom?

Fallout 4 is slower to get to the stage but that's balanced by the fact you can get everything, Fallout 4 is obviously not intended to be rushed through this is evident by the fact is has a Post Game unlike New Vegas.

when at-best the perk system of FO4 is designed to keep you 'with the curve'. Its a manipulative and modern style of game design.
Describe what you think modern style of game design is?

It also promoted the reduction in the number of guns, from level 1 to level 100 90% of the guns you will find will be various pipe weapons,
That's based on the zone you're in, tell me you didn't play the game without telling me you didn't play the game 💀


whereas in NV you can find a complete utter olympic sized swimming pool of various guns ranging from refitted thompson laser guns, cowboy repeaters, 10m pistols, 9m pistols, hunting shotguns, anti materiel rifles and about a dozen explosive types.
The equivalent of your argument would be saying you only find a BB gun and some pistols in Good springs

Because that's the equivalent of where the majority of Pipe Rifles would be found, in low level zones.
The crafting for weapons was also far too straightforward, slap the biggest barrel, magazine and newest receiver on the gun, bam that's all it is.
Yeah you can increase your damage or fire rate or your accuracy without having to hunt for specific mods across the map, just upgrade your perks while playing.

Are we acting like New Vegas was any different? They too add mods to upgrade damage or magazine capacity and etcetera.
There's no benefit to more unique and varied designs. Its an illusionary mechanic which unfortunately fails the illusion part because we all see straight through its veneer.
That's literally the New Vegas moding system for weapons


Also, completely broke armor balance because a lot of effects stack in funny ways, so with ballistic weave and explosion-proofing you can basically become nigh-immortal to any form of damage while wearing light leather armor. This is inherently just a bad idea in a game series that heavily promotes equipment based progression.
This is your only valid argument, armor is broken in Fallout 4 🤷

But you don't become nigh immortal with crafting until you're already a high level player, it's like dissing New Vegas because your max lvl Courier is hard to kill because you mix max for durability.

So the only actual criticism you have on why New Vegas crafting is better is because Fallout crafting makes you too strong.
 

Warmaster

Well-known member
Complaining about design is fine complaining about narrative choice is stupid because there's reasons why they use shacks
Because they want to freeze to death, I guess. The more real reason is that Bethesda doesn't know how to make realistic towns/cities.
We'rent you just complaining about holes in Megaton?
"I didn't complain till Fallout 4."

God forbid I praise a game that I like. I just found some things being dumb.
I know it's kinda hard to understand but there's this thing called fire, thick clothing you know stuff that DID get covered in expansion that took place in Commonwealth Winter.

🤷

Saying poor insulation = certain death is a childish approach. Of course this is a problem and its mitigated in universe with thicker clothing and sources of heat.
What a load of... I live with winter! I live in northern America! I visit family that live even further.

Doesn't matter how much you cover up. You need to be in a proper shelter. Not a building with no insulation, a bunch of holes and skeletons everywhere. Places like Drumlin Diner for example.

That's beyond ignorant. Cold actually kills people. I can vaguely ignore Fallout 3 for it because the region doesn't have terrible winters.
I'm complaining about your stupid arguments which too exist in New Vegas so I know it's just bullshit.

The Mojave Desert also would have people freezing their ass off way worse than the people in the Common Wealth but I don't hear anything bitching about it

🤷
Terrible argument. I have complaints about FNV as well. We're just pointing out the flaws of Bethesda games. Its not like there isn't any for Interplay or Obsidian games.

The whataboutist approach to argumentation is grating. All the games have some level of bullshit. I swear your argument every time you get countered is "New Vegas had issues as well".

I don't need to disregard criticism for things I like. You shouldn't either.
 

ThatZenoGuy

Zealous Evolutionary Nano Organism
Comrade
Oh my god forum spaghetti.
You find pipe rifles in the hands of level 60 giga-chad enemies just as likely as you find them in the hands of level 1 mooks. The game balance in terms of equipment is in utter shambles.

If you don't understand the subtleties of how crafting/skills/special/etc works in older titles vs FO4, there's nothing I can do to help you. I feel like more and more people nowadays are simply incompatible with how older games worked, either due to being too lazy to research how they worked, or just sheer misunderstanding them.

Let me put it as I would explain to a child.
>Games used to respect player's intelligence
>FO4 does not
>This is why FO4 has issues
 

Scooby Doo

Well-known member
Do you not understand what perspective is?
the big one is near the camera so it looks larger.
look at hte one near her head. it is roughly 4 inches in diameter. 10 inches in length.
it is the size of a CAT.
Yeah no you're bullshitting
57-Fallout3_2012-01-18_19-05-27-47.jpg

Average length of a bat is over 10 inches most are 25-35 and the Roaches here is equivalent in length

fo3-04-021.jpg

Maybe it's the size of a super large fucking cat.
even if it was the size of an entire human. your earlier picture literally shows holes that big.

note the circled in red parts. where in your own zoomed out image you can clearly see some structural holes that could let in a human. much less a cat sized radroach
Those are actually shaded zones if you actually went to the zones, if you put on your glasses one of them is literally a shadow 🤷

then there are all the windows everywhere that are missing glass. so its literally just a rectangle hole in the wall.
which again could let in a human. much less a radroach
and rad roaches can fly too.
1. Don't see that probably wrong just like you were on it being the size of a cat.
2. No they don't fly the literal lore says they can't.

Shit man just give up you don't even know the lore you're arguing about
 
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Scooby Doo

Well-known member
Because they want to freeze to death, I guess. The more real reason is that Bethesda doesn't know how to make realistic towns/cities.
Or maybe you're just being nitpicky because of metal sheds 🤷


What a load of... I live with winter! I live in northern America! I visit family that live even further.

Doesn't matter how much you cover up. You need to be in a proper shelter. Not a building with no insulation, a bunch of holes and skeletons everywhere. Places like Drumlin Diner for example.

That's beyond ignorant. Cold actually kills people.
It does in Fallout as well but it's not a guaranteed death, some people are built to handle cold better than others this is true both IRL and in the games.

I can vaguely ignore Fallout 3 for it because the region doesn't have terrible winters.
Mojave would have terribly freezing temperatures at night and the Legion has no problem in sleeping on exposed tents
🤷


Terrible argument. I have complaints about FNV as well. We're just pointing out the flaws of Bethesda games. Its not like there isn't any for Interplay or Obsidian games.
Really? Mention the last complaints about them in this thread, because so far this thread has been actually "Wine about Bethesda for ten pages" and I haven't seen any criticism of New Vegas.

It's very clear that there isn't any discussion about Fallout just shit on Bethesda while conveniently blaming fault at Bethesda for things that the other games have done.

I for one would like to see original content instead of double standards bitching about Bethesda on every page 🤷
The whataboutist approach to argumentation is grating. All the games have some level of bullshit. I swear your argument every time you get countered is "New Vegas had issues as well".

I don't need to disregard criticism for things I like. You shouldn't either.
List all the complaints you've had about New Vegas on this thread. I'll wait 🤷
 

ThatZenoGuy

Zealous Evolutionary Nano Organism
Comrade
List all the complaints you've had about New Vegas on this thread. I'll wait 🤷
New vegas removed DR from FO1-2, and also removed damage-types from FO1-2.
New vegas avoided a lot of classic weapons in FO1-2 which canonically should appear in NV, including the OG handgun, the desert eagle, the bullpup combat shotgun and the big-boy Bazooka.
New Vegas made damage taken to a minimum of 20%, instead of 'literally 0 damage taken lmao' from the OG games.
New Vegas has cut content all over the place which grinds my gears, especially in regards to the Legion which had the largest cuts.
NV enemy variety often feels too low, and there's no serious threats for max-levelled characters, whereas FO1-2 characters of high level could still be critted down in a couple turns.
NV went with the annoying flanderization of deathclaws as giga-murder-machines when they weren't actually too scary in FO1-2, mostly scary in packs.
NV weapon design in areas are a bit too silly and flash-gordon-like, instead of the 'experimental cold war' designs of FO1-2
NV perks to this very day sometimes don't work, which sucks.
NV skill checks are listed instead of being an organic decision in regular dialogue, meaning you just max speech skill and insta-win the game instead of using your brain
NV included a lot of classic beasties but weirdly nerfed them to being mostly harmless like fire geckos (which could FUCK YOUR SHIT RIGHT UP in FO2) and supermutants who rarely have big scary weapons when they should be packing plasma casters and bazookas all day every day.
NV at launch was super fucking buggy and in a state that is inexcusable, plus it had greedy monetization in the form of preorder packs.
 

Warmaster

Well-known member
Or maybe you're just being nitpicky because of metal sheds 🤷
You have the habit of calling people that when you got nothing else to say.
It does in Fallout as well but it's not a guaranteed death, some people are built to handle cold better than others this is true both IRL and in the games.
I'm not going to launch a whole argument over if that's true or not. Absolutely none of the developers have ever heard of consistency and tone.
Mojave would have terribly freezing temperatures at night and the Legion has no problem in sleeping on exposed tents
🤷
You mean the tents that are able to close. People can camp in Nevada. Googling the average seasonal temps in Nevada was actually interesting. Not close to Boston levels still.
Really? Mention the last complaints about them in this thread, because so far this thread has been actually "Wine about Bethesda for ten pages" and I haven't seen any criticism of New Vegas.

It's very clear that there isn't any discussion about Fallout just shit on Bethesda while conveniently blaming fault at Bethesda for things that the other games have done.

I for one would like to see original content instead of double standards bitching about Bethesda on every page 🤷

List all the complaints you've had about New Vegas on this thread. I'll wait 🤷
"People haven't been raising up enough stink at New Vegas. Therefore my whataboutism is fair play. I'll conveniently ignore how New Vegas does a lot better than 3 and all Bethesda had to do was the bare minimum in game design."

Honestly I thought it was a meme before I really got into world building myself. But Fallout 76 not having any NPCs at launch just showed me they are lazy as shit.

I don't expect perfection. I expect at minimum the same heights as previous games. Not lower. My expectations aren't unrealistic and having my pretty low ones already being called "nitpicky" is funny.
 

ThatZenoGuy

Zealous Evolutionary Nano Organism
Comrade
Honestly I thought it was a meme before I really got into world building myself. But Fallout 76 not having any NPCs at launch just showed me they are lazy as shit.
PPffft, I almost forgot they had no NPC's at launch, that's embarrassing. They thought they could get away with it too, but they had to fold when even the biggest shills had a stink about it.
 

Scooby Doo

Well-known member
You have the habit of calling people that when you got nothing else to say.
There's not much to say when people are dying on the hill of metal sheds ruining the world setting apparently.


I'm not going to launch a whole argument over if that's true or not. Absolutely none of the developers have ever heard of consistency and tone.
Finally something that's true 😂


You mean the tents that are able to close. People can camp in Nevada. Googling the average seasonal temps in Nevada was actually interesting. Not close to Boston levels still.
Tents that they never actually close 😂
And if you Google the temperature in Mojave at night is the same as Boston in the day yet there's no screams of the world building being destroyed


"People haven't been raising up enough stink at New Vegas. Therefore my whataboutism is fair play. I'll conveniently ignore how New Vegas does a lot better than 3 and all Bethesda had to do was the bare minimum in game design."
Nah the original point was that "Bethesda ruined the world building by poorly made shacks, people would all die from cold and bugs. Impossible to survive!"

Ignoring that Fallout New Vegas came out before Fallout 4 and there was no wailing for this same flaw that they copied, so Bethesda continued the status quo and people are upset it ruined the franchise?
Honestly I thought it was a meme before I really got into world building myself. But Fallout 76 not having any NPCs at launch just showed me they are lazy as shit.
Fallout 76 was indeed a shit game I'm not even gonna disagree with that even though narratively speaking Fallout 76 is about rebuilding society (Which you were all complaining about)

Fallout 4/3 are fine additions to the setting and complaining that it ruined the world setting is just ignorance about the environment and history of the setting in those games

I don't expect perfection. I expect at minimum the same heights as previous games. Not lower. My expectations aren't unrealistic and having my pretty low ones already being called "nitpicky" is funny.
Crying that the settlements are not on par with 21st century buildings when the East Coast is supposed to be less developed narratively is pretty nitpicky.
 

Carrot of Truth

War is Peace
Honestly I thought it was a meme before I really got into world building myself. But Fallout 76 not having any NPCs at launch just showed me they are lazy as shit.

I'm convinced the settlement bullshit in 4 was tacked on so they wouldn't have to create actual towns with unique NPC's and handcrafted quests. Instead they shoved that onto the player alongside endless "radiant quests" and called it a day.
 

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