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  1. sillygoose

    Thoughts on consequences of a total Polish defeat in the Soviet war of 1920

    If you're talking about the original scenario of Poland being totally defeated then likely yes because the Reichswehr leadership cut a deal with Lenin to let him restore the Russian Empire's territory.
  2. sillygoose

    Thoughts on consequences of a total Polish defeat in the Soviet war of 1920

    I'm no expert on the USSR in this period, so I'm not sure, but I think passed on the talks with von Seeckt that Lenin intended to just rebuild the Russian Empire territorially, which means no 1945 style puppet Poland, it would be direct incorporation as a Polish SSR. Depends. Von Seeckt ran...
  3. sillygoose

    Thoughts on consequences of a total Polish defeat in the Soviet war of 1920

    Harbors require specific conditions and Memel was the only option for a significant port.
  4. sillygoose

    Thoughts on consequences of a total Polish defeat in the Soviet war of 1920

    Unlike Poland Lithuania didn't get a port during Versailles so they took one.
  5. sillygoose

    Thoughts on consequences of a total Polish defeat in the Soviet war of 1920

    Restrained in what capacity? They didn't launch more invasions after the early 1920s, but that was more to do with the state of the economy and fighting several costly wars which did not help things. Why would they need to move on Danzig when they effectively already had everything they wanted...
  6. sillygoose

    Thoughts on consequences of a total Polish defeat in the Soviet war of 1920

    Not sure to be honest. I have a mixed read on the anti-comintern pact part, especially because Hitler wanting the commitment to the pact from Poland was due to knowing about their past double deals to try and get France to attack Germany and entering the pact would signal Poland moving into...
  7. sillygoose

    Thoughts on consequences of a total Polish defeat in the Soviet war of 1920

    Basically. The 2nd Republic did not have a great history as far as treating its minorities decently and IIRC the Ukrainian minority was the largest in the Republic at about 5 million people and that region had basically been conquered in 1919; even during the A-H Empire the Poles were the...
  8. sillygoose

    Thoughts on consequences of a total Polish defeat in the Soviet war of 1920

    My read is that it was diplomatic speak for ending secret operations and contact with Ukrainians on all levels and in the event of anything happening Poland was given a free hand to do with the territory as it pleased, since Poland had expressed concern over German contacts and operations in...
  9. sillygoose

    Thoughts on consequences of a total Polish defeat in the Soviet war of 1920

    From what I can find that isn't the Polish White Book (should be obvious why we have to be skeptical of its claims) the offers of Ukraine was not the territory actually, but recognizing it as Poland's sphere of influence. That was the January 5th 1939 meeting of Hitler and Beck. The Ribbentrop...
  10. sillygoose

    Thoughts on consequences of a total Polish defeat in the Soviet war of 1920

    Problem is that the Soviets wanted all of Poland, so they'd take it all since they'd have conquered it given the OP's scenario saying Poland is totally defeated. We also know that von Seeckt negotiated with Lenin to allow the Soviets to take back their 1914 border in exchange for Germany...
  11. sillygoose

    Thoughts on consequences of a total Polish defeat in the Soviet war of 1920

    The Black Reichswehr was that. Besides the actual Reichswehr. No the port itself was besides the issue and in fact the port depended on Poland for business, so the Nazis couldn't even leverage it against Poland if they wanted to without entirely destroying the economy. The only reason Hitler...
  12. sillygoose

    Thoughts on consequences of a total Polish defeat in the Soviet war of 1920

    Thanks Not necessarily. The problem was FDR got involved behind the scenes and forced Chamberlain to take a hardline stance beyond even what public pressure had required as well as convincing the Poles that the US would be behind them, so Germany simply could not win and Poland would get more...
  13. sillygoose

    Thoughts on consequences of a total Polish defeat in the Soviet war of 1920

    I'll reply more when I have time, but IOTL it was actually Poland who first raised the Danzig issue in September just days before the Munich Conference. When Ribbentrop brought it up in October with a formal offer Beck apparently actually actively studied the proposal until he was ordered to...
  14. sillygoose

    Thoughts on consequences of a total Polish defeat in the Soviet war of 1920

    No point in opening the door to revisions if you're just going to deny them all. The entire point of the treaty though was to revise the ToV and it apparently pissed off Poland quite a bit when it was signed, since they realized it would mean that the border was open to revision. Sure the...
  15. sillygoose

    Thoughts on consequences of a total Polish defeat in the Soviet war of 1920

    Politically that was not viable. The Poles were squeezing Danzig economically, the German people demanded it returned, and most of the power brokers in the country wanted it dealt with, especially if Hitler was going to make a final deal on the border. Technically Hitler not making an issue of...
  16. sillygoose

    Thoughts on consequences of a total Polish defeat in the Soviet war of 1920

    Steve, you're right we're going round and round in circles, so I guess at this point we should just drop it and move on to other topics.
  17. sillygoose

    Thoughts on consequences of a total Polish defeat in the Soviet war of 1920

    What does that have to do with what I was talking about? Total non-sequitor. Ottoman actions have little to do with how the Entente drew lines on a map to carve up the Middle East in the middle of the war, the fallout of which we've been dealing with ever since...
  18. sillygoose

    Thoughts on consequences of a total Polish defeat in the Soviet war of 1920

    No problem, I typed out much more than intended. Too much coffee. Basically dropped, not entirely dropped. Demilitarization of the Rhineland and Rhine, continued to use of the Saar coal fields, and maintained Allied occupation troops were going to have to remain even with the majority of the...
  19. sillygoose

    Thoughts on consequences of a total Polish defeat in the Soviet war of 1920

    I'm assuming you mean France. A defeated, but partially remilitarized Germany is less of a threat than a Communist one allied with the USSR bent on world revolution. Running rampant? France would still have its position on the Rhine as well as the Saar and Germany would be concerned with...
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