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  1. strunkenwhite

    Alien Space Bats show Ukrainians living on September 12, 1992 a vision of what their country will look like 30 years later and also how it got there

    To be honest, I do not have a very deep understanding of Vietnam, so I may be coloring it with my understanding of the 21st century conflicts. But regarding Iraq: they wanted us out; we got out. Regarding Afghanistan: we tried for 20 years to help them put together a real country. 20 years later...
  2. strunkenwhite

    Alien Space Bats show Ukrainians living on September 12, 1992 a vision of what their country will look like 30 years later and also how it got there

    Just like Korea? and West Germany? and Taiwan? edit: No, wait, what I should say in response to this is: the Republic of Vietnam was our ally? I thought we just stuck our dicks in the meatgrinder over there because we hated communism.
  3. strunkenwhite

    Alien Space Bats show Ukrainians living on September 12, 1992 a vision of what their country will look like 30 years later and also how it got there

    I will admit that 30 years is enough time to a deep and large change in public opinion and that the Senate is not always an excellent barometer of public opinion. But I do not agree that pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan after decade(s) of trying and failing to convince the people in those...
  4. strunkenwhite

    Alien Space Bats show Ukrainians living on September 12, 1992 a vision of what their country will look like 30 years later and also how it got there

    I'm sorry that I've been unclear. It is not just about the Senators themselves, or the Senate. If they get on board like that it arguably reflects the level of public support. If public support is that broad, why would it disappear? When Ukraine will be doing its best to be a good partner for...
  5. strunkenwhite

    Alien Space Bats show Ukrainians living on September 12, 1992 a vision of what their country will look like 30 years later and also how it got there

    Sure, but what I'm saying is that if you get two thirds of them on board (this would include both parties), reversing course isn't something that is just going to happen at the flap of a butterfly's wings. Great, so that's even more reason for American military presence to stick around the...
  6. strunkenwhite

    Alien Space Bats show Ukrainians living on September 12, 1992 a vision of what their country will look like 30 years later and also how it got there

    Come to think of it, though, 1992-Russia might well be less bothered by Ukrainian nukes next door than by American nukes next door. So the above scenario merely being a realistic option might be enough to get Russia to push back and say "no, never mind, you keep them, but Americans stay out."
  7. strunkenwhite

    Alien Space Bats show Ukrainians living on September 12, 1992 a vision of what their country will look like 30 years later and also how it got there

    To preface, I'm approaching this from the perspective that the USA is hypothetically changing its mind rather than cynically deceiving Ukraine. So if Ukraine convinces the Clinton administration, and also two thirds of the Senate (required for treaty approval), that it's worth it to have...
  8. strunkenwhite

    Alien Space Bats show Ukrainians living on September 12, 1992 a vision of what their country will look like 30 years later and also how it got there

    Well, I am not entirely convinced by all that. But I'm not really trying to argue about whether the US would be willing to do what would be necessary to convince Ukraine it had real protection instead of empty promises, or even what "what would be necessary" would entail. All I'm arguing is...
  9. strunkenwhite

    Alien Space Bats show Ukrainians living on September 12, 1992 a vision of what their country will look like 30 years later and also how it got there

    Either that or use them as leverage to push for very concrete mutual defense assurances from the United States. Doesn't have to be NATO, but it has to be something that Ukraine believes will dissuade Russia because it clearly wasn't enough the first time.
  10. strunkenwhite

    Alien Space Bats show Ukrainians living on September 12, 1992 a vision of what their country will look like 30 years later and also how it got there

    Ukrainians' new attitude will certainly make the political situation interesting. My at-a-glance speculation is that they'd become something of a mediator between the old Soviet bloc and the West: stern yet compassionate. No, USA, this is a mistake. No, Russia, we are not friends. Please...
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