A Prayer Answered: Delivered from the Fury of the Northmen - Norse Scandinavia teleported away in 800 AD

[raharris1973]

"O Lord, Deliver us from the fury of the Northmen" - so wrote, or was quoted, a survivor of the Viking raid on the English Monastery of Lindisfarne in 796 AD,

In this ATL, that prayer is answered, by Charlie the ASB, who teleports the demographic center of Norse-speaking southern Scandinavia, the homeland of the Viking raiders, far away from defenseless England, and Europe, a world away, to the Pacific Ocean, east of the Kuril islands. Left behind, attached to the European landmass are the further north, Arctic and sub-Arctic lands populated by forest-dwelling and reindeer herding Finnish and Lappish (or Sami) peoples, lacking in longboat technology and formidable raiding tactics.

Here is how it looks:




The various North Germanic Norse peoples, predecessors of the Danes, Norwegians, Swedes, and others related like Geats, are displaced far, far to the east, to the northern Pacific, and a bit south of their original latitude, to not run into Kamchatka or Chuckchi peninsulas or the Aleutians and have a temperature somewhat closer to home...although this is still a cooling experience for them. With their movement south several degrees latitude to align with the Kurils and Hokkaido, I also shrank the southern Scandinavia footprint 85% to adjust for Mercator projection distortions.

What do the Scandinavians do in their literally (cool) northeast Asian location, with the closest settled people being the Japanese? How do the two societies interact? How far do the Norsemen take their ships in all directions?

And how is the development of Europe changed by the sudden absence, starting in 800 AD, of the Scandinavian Norsemen and Viking raiders. None of the Viking raiders or founders of Dublin, the Danelaw, Normandy nor the Normans, Novgorod, Kiev, nor the Varangian guard. How are the histories in particular of the British Isles, France, Germany, Italy, and Russia effected? What becomes the first large notable dynasty or state structure ruling over the East Slavs of the Dnieper or Volga rivers?

And, does the absence of Norsemen basically "cure" the North Sea and Baltic of piracy? Or do formidable Slavic or Baltic pirates take up the mantle and become new alt-Vikings? Presuming not, does a lack of pervasive and unpredictable threats of piracy, raids and conquests from the sea leave the early medieval central kingdoms with more prestige, power and authority over their subjects, leading to less feudal fragmentation than we saw in OTL as people sought more reliable, local protection in northwestern Europe?

Your thoughts?

 

[Buba]

Most of Europe by 1000AD is unrecogniseably dfferent. By 850-900AD very different already. And British Islands very happy
The various Slavs and Ugro-Finns not enslaved and sold to ERE and Arabs too.

I imagine the Norse to colonise Edo, Kamtchatka and Karafuto, plus the little islands. AFAIK in OTL Japanese fisherman swept eastgward by the current could not make it back from Aleutians/Alaska - this could be the fate of the Norse too. They could go east but not come back. Could enough be swept away - or a colonisation effort made - as to colonise Aleutians/Alaska (like in OTL happened with Madgascar)?
Japan? Anything possible. Maybe, if Norse raid for slaves and loot - this saves the Emishi from conquest and Honshu stays divided?

 

[ATP]

Most of Europe by 1000AD is unrecogniseably dfferent. By 850-900AD very different already. And British Islands very happy
The various Slavs and Ugro-Finns not enslaved and sold to ERE and Arabs too.

I imagine the Norse to colonise Edo, Kamtchatka and Karafuto, plus the little islands. AFAIK in OTL Japanese fisherman swept eastgward by the current could not make it back from Aleutians/Alaska - this could be the fate of the Norse too. They could go east but not come back. Could enough be swept away - or a colonisation effort made - as to colonise Aleutians/Alaska (like in OTL happened with Madgascar)?
Japan? Anything possible. Maybe, if Norse raid for slaves and loot - this saves the Emishi from conquest and Honshu stays divided?

In OTL Viking sell slaves to Bagdad,but before that jewish chazars did the same.
So,no Russia,only jewish Chazar state would keep enslaving people.

ERE would not fall without varagian guards,so notching change here,but no Normandy or norman Sicily here.
Stronger France,and ERE could take Sicily.

Poland - we were established by great Moravia refugees,so notching change here.

One big difference - no Russian state,instead many smaller slavic states,some controlled by Chazars.
Till Cumans come,they would destroy Chazars.When mongols come,they would destroy Cumans - but,there would be no strong Moscov state who could take over Russia.

 

[Buba]

Poland - we were established by great Moravia refugees,so notching change here.

That's only one of the mainstream theories. Poland being established by Viking slavers - like Rus' - is equaly valid.

There could be no Moscow as such. That area was Ugro-Finnic before conquest by the Rus. And if there is no Rus ...

 

[ATP]

That's only one of the mainstream theories. Poland being established by Viking slavers - like Rus' - is equaly valid.

There could be no Moscow as such. That area was Ugro-Finnic before conquest by the Rus. And if there is no Rus ...

No,Viking theory is 19th century idea,long time ago abadonned - at least from 1966,when Gomólka made big efforts to find first polish pagan state,and thanks to that we knew,that bigger viking population come here AFTER Poland was christianed,when state existed at least 50 years.

And,nobody in Europe hide vikings ancestors - if we have them,we would talk about that,like russians and people of Normandy and Sicily.
Instead we have myths about Piast,Cracov,and even mentioned Bolesław hailing himself as king of goths.
Nothing about vikings.

 

[Buba]

And,nobody in Europe hide vikings ancestors - if we have them,we would talk about that,like russians and people of Normandy and Sicily.

Tell that to the Turbo-lechia people ...

 

[ATP]

Tell that to the Turbo-lechia people ...

Why? they do not lived in Wincemty Kadłubek times,when Piast myths was written.
What idiot think now do not matter,important thing is what written old chronicles.And our old chronicles said many things,but notching about vikings.

Which mean,that vikings never come here,except as Mieszko or Bolesław bodyguards,whern our state arleady existed.

P.S Fun thing - turbo-Lechia myth are supported by Bellona,when it was lead by soviet agent.So,it is possible that it is one of Moscov way to destroy Poland from within.
Stupid one,supporting lgbt goons is more effective.

 

[ATP]

Most of Europe by 1000AD is unrecogniseably dfferent. By 850-900AD very different already. And British Islands very happy
The various Slavs and Ugro-Finns not enslaved and sold to ERE and Arabs too.

I imagine the Norse to colonise Edo, Kamtchatka and Karafuto, plus the little islands. AFAIK in OTL Japanese fisherman swept eastgward by the current could not make it back from Aleutians/Alaska - this could be the fate of the Norse too. They could go east but not come back. Could enough be swept away - or a colonisation effort made - as to colonise Aleutians/Alaska (like in OTL happened with Madgascar)?
Japan? Anything possible. Maybe, if Norse raid for slaves and loot - this saves the Emishi from conquest and Honshu stays divided?

So,Norse would take Hokkaido,and other islands never unite under one Emperor?
It would be completly different Japan.

What about Philippines and Taiwan ? could Norse colonize them? becouse Korea,not mention China ,would be impossible to be taken by them.

P.S i remember some funny series on Discovery where warriors from various countries and centuries fought each other - samurai defeated viking there,but:
1.There was no samurai yet in 800 AD Japan
2.In series vikings as range weapons do not used longbows,but throwing spears.Which is stupid,vikings were no knights and used longbows.

 

[Buba]

So,Norse would take Hokkaido,and other islands never unite under one Emperor?

Could colonise Hokkaid - known as Edo before 1870, BTW. The climate and plants should similar to home.
The other islands could still unite - why not? With the possibility that not all Honshu is Japanese, if Norse raids pull forces away from the Northern Front.

What about Philippines and Taiwan ? could Norse colonize them?

IMO too hot, too different. Also - the bravery of the locals will make Norse look like pussies. Maybe emporiums? But what would they trade?

Korea,not mention China ,would be impossible to be taken by them.

Oh, yes, all they can do there is some trade and some piracy. Otherwise the Norse make exotic slaves/Vlad Tepes style coastal decorations.

 

[raharris1973]

One big difference - no Russian state,instead many smaller slavic states,some controlled by Chazars.
Till Cumans come,they would destroy Chazars.When mongols come,they would destroy Cumans - but,there would be no strong Moscov state who could take over Russia.

Looking at the specific example of Russia and the East Slavic sphere -

There are going to be differences with no, probably Swedish-sourced, Norsemen coming down Russian rivers and founding principalities and towns like Novgorod and Kyiv and become famous river pirates and traders extending their networks all the way down through the Caspian Sea and Black Sea to trade with the Arabs/Persians as "the Rus" and the Byzantines as "the Varangians".

They almost certainly won't acquire those ethnonyms and get them applied to the mass of the East Slavic population along the Dnepr, Pripet Marshes and Lake and Lake Ilmen region.

In the absence of Norse traders, warriors, rulers, this is a chance for the Khazars to have a longer lasting Khaganate over most of what we call Russia, possibly permanently imprinting their name on the land and its Slavic people. At least the particular ruler who smashed them, Sviatoslav the Brave of Kievan Rus, will not be around to do it, in exactly the same way as historical.

Alternatively, the Volga Bulgars could grow larger and expand into the political vacuum left by the absence of the Viking Rus ruling class, leaving the land as a whole called Bulgaria - not that crazy, considering the etymoloogical association with the river Volga, and the people Bulgarians. So this could be a case where instead of the state-building noble class for this land and its mainly East Slavic population being Norse, it is a Turkic people of some sort. If it is the Volga Bulgars, and they blend in to a larger Slavic mass and lose their Turkic language, it might ironically be very much like what happened to their Bulgar brothers who migrated to the Danube. With the possible difference of huge, eastern "Bulgaria" converting to Islam. But then again, if its predominant trade connections becaome Dnepr and Black over Volga and Caspian Sea, maybe their rulers would pick Greek Orthodoxy rather than Islam when picking a monotheism.

.....and the Khazars and Bulgars do not exhaust the supply of potential Turkic state-forming peoples in the area. After them, and possibly dooming dirable state forming efforts by them, could be the Patzinaks/Cumans/Pechenegs/Kipchaks.

And, we cannot rule out the indigenous East Slavs of the northwest Ukraine and Belarus region from leading their state formation entirely on their own terms, and making themselves known to the wider world by an endogenous ethnonym they have given themselves, that we would not quite recognize but that would probably *sound* Russian or Slavic to us.

After all, nothing says state-formation was a magic art Slavs did not have access to. The Poles, Moravians, Serbs, and Croats all pulled it off in early medieval times as well.

Indeed, I might have to take back what I said about them not being called Rus/Russians or Varangians. I think Rus derived from a Persian word for red-hair. Well there should be plenty of red-headed Slavs even without Norse additions, so the nickname could still happen. I don't know as well the Byzantine etymology for Varangian. But even a degree of sea piracy and raiding on the Black Sea and Caspian can't be ruled out. Only this time, not led or learned from Norse pirates and warriors, but by Wendish West Slavic or Baltic Lithuanian pirates and warriors.

 

[Buba]

No Slavs along the Volga yet - maybe never.
Another Turkic candidate for nation bulding in Eastern Europe - Seljuks. They could go there and not to Persia/Mesopotamia/Syria.

 

[ATP]

Looking at the specific example of Russia and the East Slavic sphere -

There are going to be differences with no, probably Swedish-sourced, Norsemen coming down Russian rivers and founding principalities and towns like Novgorod and Kyiv and become famous river pirates and traders extending their networks all the way down through the Caspian Sea and Black Sea to trade with the Arabs/Persians as "the Rus" and the Byzantines as "the Varangians".

They almost certainly won't acquire those ethnonyms and get them applied to the mass of the East Slavic population along the Dnepr, Pripet Marshes and Lake and Lake Ilmen region.

In the absence of Norse traders, warriors, rulers, this is a chance for the Khazars to have a longer lasting Khaganate over most of what we call Russia, possibly permanently imprinting their name on the land and its Slavic people. At least the particular ruler who smashed them, Sviatoslav the Brave of Kievan Rus, will not be around to do it, in exactly the same way as historical.

Alternatively, the Volga Bulgars could grow larger and expand into the political vacuum left by the absence of the Viking Rus ruling class, leaving the land as a whole called Bulgaria - not that crazy, considering the etymoloogical association with the river Volga, and the people Bulgarians. So this could be a case where instead of the state-building noble class for this land and its mainly East Slavic population being Norse, it is a Turkic people of some sort. If it is the Volga Bulgars, and they blend in to a larger Slavic mass and lose their Turkic language, it might ironically be very much like what happened to their Bulgar brothers who migrated to the Danube. With the possible difference of huge, eastern "Bulgaria" converting to Islam. But then again, if its predominant trade connections becaome Dnepr and Black over Volga and Caspian Sea, maybe their rulers would pick Greek Orthodoxy rather than Islam when picking a monotheism.

.....and the Khazars and Bulgars do not exhaust the supply of potential Turkic state-forming peoples in the area. After them, and possibly dooming dirable state forming efforts by them, could be the Patzinaks/Cumans/Pechenegs/Kipchaks.

And, we cannot rule out the indigenous East Slavs of the northwest Ukraine and Belarus region from leading their state formation entirely on their own terms, and making themselves known to the wider world by an endogenous ethnonym they have given themselves, that we would not quite recognize but that would probably *sound* Russian or Slavic to us.

After all, nothing says state-formation was a magic art Slavs did not have access to. The Poles, Moravians, Serbs, and Croats all pulled it off in early medieval times as well.

Indeed, I might have to take back what I said about them not being called Rus/Russians or Varangians. I think Rus derived from a Persian word for red-hair. Well there should be plenty of red-headed Slavs even without Norse additions, so the nickname could still happen. I don't know as well the Byzantine etymology for Varangian. But even a degree of sea piracy and raiding on the Black Sea and Caspian can't be ruled out. Only this time, not led or learned from Norse pirates and warriors, but by Wendish West Slavic or Baltic Lithuanian pirates and warriors.

True,but instead of Khazars it would be Pieczyng or Cumans,they come from steppe after 800 AD.
And,as new steppe raiders,they would break previous ones.

slavic state on Ukraine - why not? in OTL moravians run to Poland and create state here, in this TL another group could made another state there.

And,there was Hungarian pagan state existing on Don river which was wiped out by mongols till 1237 - here they could create somehow bigger without vikings coming there.

But,whatever happen,they would still raid ERE and sell slaves to Bagdad Caliphate,so notching would change there.

One big difference - few states instead of one Russia,nobody would try to conqer all slavic people,like Moscov did in OTL.
Mongols would use some state to collect taxes for them,like they did with Moscov - but,it never take everytching like them.

 

[gral]

In this scenario, it's possible the Finnic-Permian peoples become the masters of the northern Volga Basin and further north lands - maybe we get a Karelian 'Novgorod' analogue?

 

[Buba]

Yes

 

[ATP]

In this scenario, it's possible the Finnic-Permian peoples become the masters of the northern Volga Basin and further north lands - maybe we get a Karelian 'Novgorod' analogue?

And they would join some alternate Hanza,which could never fall here.

 

[raharris1973]

I am surprised given his avatar helmet @Skallagrim hasn't shown up