Mary Sues and Fictional Portrayals of Women in Combat

You can have a feminist or a non-feminist write an empowered female character that is likable and even a badass, but generally people who are selected to write because of adherence to the feminist-intersectionalist super ego are chosen for their adherence to doctrine, not skill.

I think they may also have a problem that when they are thinking of female characters, they seem to have a feeling of "being in the shadow" of male characters

May also as you said, go with the feminist-intersectionalist thing, which maybe why they're also increasingly designed to look physically unappealing or dude-like

Penis-Envy?
 
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You make good points. Rey is a Mary Sue but there wasn’t really much effort put into her to make her interesting. I think those two things go together to make her character unlikeable. Sometimes a particularly interesting character can be really overpowered, often without explanation, and it isn’t a problem for viewers.

I think most people sort of associate Rey with annoyance. Annoyance in that the character herself is bland and unappealing and is given all sorts of power for no reasons. It's generic boring hero tropes. I've read enough to recognize the style. Typically it involves giving someone a superficial flaw that isn't really a flaw, at best a foil to put the hero in a bad spot to prove how noble they are. Like when the boss from the office is asked about his weakest/worst quality, he responded with "sometimes I care too much about other people".

It's not a flaw that shows something ugly within the character itself. In those books, what you'll find is that the villains are actually more likable than the villains, because the writer isn't afraid of giving the villain an ugly side and may even manage to balance it with good attributes as their desire for greater sophistication in their writing shines through.

Rather, it's a sign that the writer is immature as they are unable to separate their personal image with that of the character they are writing. By producing a hero who has no flaws, the writer hopes to avoid implying that he has any. Only the superficial flaws that people will daily admit to having as they are of little to no consequence. Such as being clumsy or a bad cook.

I kind of feel that modern left wing writers are emotionally less mature than writers have traditionally been, even left leaning ones. It’s not enough for them to have their hero with the right demographic background, they can’t let that hero have weaknesses, can’t make them flawed, can‘t allow them to suffer. They can’t even bear to see a bad guy that is too competent. It’s almost like what a very young child might want from a story.

I don't think that's the case actually.

If you look, before she was consumed by her progressive politics, JK Rowling was producing excellent work. The Harry Potter series is very much a left-leaning political book, but it is well executed in almost every details. Fantastic characters, good story, beautiful style, and a creative setting that has kept people engaged on a level that despite its youth, rivals older franchises. Martin too is another writer who views himself as a feminist and is left leaning and from what I hear, is a fantastic writer.

No, I think the problem isn't that good left writers don't exist, but rather that they are not being raised up. Because while an obvious sign of a novice or a bad writer is a character who has no flaws or flaws that are merely superficial in nature, they are great for zealots. It presents the ideology with no real soul searching into the nature of that ideology, because within the current frame that leftist progressives exist, such a thing is a danger to the entire political alliance. Instead, a writer who produces a story where the socially acceptable hero is always right and the enemy is always evil, stupid, ugly, and malicious is far more preferable as it reinforces the in-vs-out tribal aspect of their political alliance.

So instead more talented writers on the left side get pushed aside or pushed to the right because they are not pure enough in their views.

You go back a few decades and look at sci-fi and fantasy movies from then. The writers and directors were almost all left wingers, they liked to have badass women, and throw in a token non-white here and there. But they actually tried to make deeper stories too, not like this generation of SJW’s who want their flawless female or POC characters to breeze through the poor excuse for a plot without breaking a sweat.

As I said, it's not entirely their fault. Those writers are out of their debts and instead of getting good feedback, they're told that they're perfect and any sort of criticism is a form of assault. You can't blame a spoiled brat for being a brat when he doesn't win if his parents keep coddling him when he loses.

I would contend that if you’re a male feminist, your life has become a failed shit test. Feminism is a giant shit test that western societies need to pass in order to survive.

Not entirely.

Some male feminists are good looking enough or well enough off financially that a feminist will marry (girlfriend?) up into what she could not otherwise obtain. You'd be surprised at the thin guys I've seen with fat, ugly girls who essentially control them via a mixture of feminist ideology and the faint hope of getting sex that month. And they generally accept it because either they're too soft to fight for what they want or because they don't think they can do any better. That said, it's not really an existence I would wish upon anyone.

As for feminism itself, I think feminism needs to be judged in the light of its true intentions. Which is obviously not about equality, but rather about preventing predatory men from preying upon women. When you look at feminism in that light, it all makes sense. Economic equality was just a means to an end to allow women a way out of a relationship with a predatory man. Support for divorce was a way for a woman to leave a predatory husband even without support from her family. Abortion was for a way for women to dispose of a child of predatory men.

The problem feminism faces is its own success. The moderate voices got what they wanted and the more extreme ones were left over. And instead of simply producing means to allow women to escape abusive situations, they are seeking to remove competent men from the equation on the basis that those same competent men are the most capable predators. It began first by trying to suppress the shadow of male psyche--but that hasn't worked. Removing competent men has produced a lot of men who are more dependent upon women economically and socially. And what's worse is that since you can't actually destroy the shadows, they go underground and they begin to manifest themselves in other ways. Trying to guilt women for sex, threats of self-harm for attention, and other such manipulation tactics. So now I think they've given up and are just targeting masculinity in general.

Feminism itself can work so long as it exists to offer a woman an out for a bad relationship that is a danger to her and her children. Feminism begins to fail when it seeks to remove male competency in hopes of removing the inherent risk in social relationships with men.
 
If you look, before she was consumed by her progressive politics, JK Rowling was producing excellent work. The Harry Potter series is very much a left-leaning political book, but it is well executed in almost every details. Fantastic characters, good story, beautiful style, and a creative setting that has kept people engaged on a level that despite its youth, rivals older franchises. Martin too is another writer who views himself as a feminist and is left leaning and from what I hear, is a fantastic writer.

No, I think the problem isn't that good left writers don't exist, but rather that they are not being raised up. Because while an obvious sign of a novice or a bad writer is a character who has no flaws or flaws that are merely superficial in nature, they are great for zealots. It presents the ideology with no real soul searching into the nature of that ideology, because within the current frame that leftist progressives exist, such a thing is a danger to the entire political alliance. Instead, a writer who produces a story where the socially acceptable hero is always right and the enemy is always evil, stupid, ugly, and malicious is far more preferable as it reinforces the in-vs-out tribal aspect of their political alliance.

So instead more talented writers on the left side get pushed aside or pushed to the right because they are not pure enough in their views.
I agree with this. However I'd go a step further and say that political writing is a problem on both sides and not a leftist issue.

You can write a good story, and you can put politics in it for sure. However if you make your politics front and center, you start warping the story and it gradually becomes worse the more politics you put in it.

In a way politics in writing are much like fetishes. Having romance and relationships in your work can add to it tremendously (unless it's a how-to guide on phone repair). Cramming your foot/vore/inflation/whatever fetish into every scene weirds everybody out and reduces the story hugely.

Politics is similar. Having political discourse and discussing political ideas adds to the story. Making every person who disagrees with your specific political fetish into Snidely Whiplash and every political system to disagree with to be a luge ride to dystopia just causes your readers to roll their eyes so hard they get friction burns inside their eyelids.

I'm going to single out a right-leaning writer and point at Weber here. In the Honorverse people came for the giant spaceships firing ten million missiles per tick. The characters are diverse and interesting (granted some more than others). However once Weber got going into politics things turned sour fast because every left leaning politician was a terrible hypocrite, every even slightly left-leaning political system led to terrible outcomes, and basically I wanted to just skip those sections and get back to the giant spaceships, but the politics seemed to expand ever more until I finally just quit reading. He didn't quite reach the level of Suedom but there were no left-leaning characters who could possibly compete with his far superior right-leaning characters.

So on topic, how does this tie into Mary Sues? Heroes are by definition exceptional people. There's nothing wrong with that and an exceptional hero in the story can add to it tremendously. However once politics come into play, you get a political Sue. The Sue now represents [your position here] in the political spectrum, and once the writer's already putting such a Sue into the story, the Sue can't be allowed to fail because the Sue is representative of their special political position. Poor quality self-insert Sues can't fail because they're a power trip for the amateur writer and them failing is a failure of the writer. Poor quality political Sues can't fail because that would represent a failure of the Republicrats/Special Gender/Race and that's utterly unacceptable to the person writing that specific position. Further, you have to marginalize the other characters to make the Sue even specialler, and turn those who disagree into Snidely Whiplash.

The net result is that trying to write a story where politics are more important than the story itself tends to lead to terrible writing and Sues. Ironically it hurts the cause more than it helps because people don't enjoy your terrible story and Sues, and they start associating them with your specific politics.
 
@Bear Ribs
You know, I honestly find it kinda weird how Right Leaning Authors actually still sorta do a Diversity-Checklist to varying degrees with female & non-white characters being Badass and likable

And kinda ironic and hypocritical for me, but these days I’m kinda laughing when in-universe, there are Left Leaning characters accusing Right-Leaning characters of all sorts of stuff only, again, surprisinhly diverse and there even being female and non-white leaders or Badasses around on their side

Like Hugh Taigh from Aristillus accusing the entire city of being some white supremacist megacorp dystopia, only the person he’s talking to is a young female nigerian who is very educated and having issues with his accusations.....he gets pissed when she actually makes counterarguments and leaves and decides that she and so many other people will need reeducation
 
Well give it some time... maybe Disney will reimagine A New Hope and soon we'll have Super 8 star Ryan Lee starring as Luke Skywalker and doing loop-de-loops and Immelman turns... or stalling their starship in the empty vacuum of space around the Death Star using it's gravity to drop down behind some TIE fighters in the climatic battle to show how he truly is the force blessed best bush pilot on the Outer Rim. The limits of 1977 special effects technology will no longer hamper and hinder the full plot telling potential that excessive amounts of CGI can bring onto the screen!
 
If feminism was only about predatory men. Then what the hell is the bullshit with Trans and Queer theories?

Why do they oppose paternity tests and use their lapdog the government to try and fight it?
You literally snipped the answer to your own question out of your quote of his post.

The problem feminism faces is its own success. The moderate voices got what they wanted and the more extreme ones were left over. And instead of simply producing means to allow women to escape abusive situations, they are seeking to remove competent men from the equation on the basis that those same competent men are the most capable predators.
 
It doesn't answer anything. How does using the state to cuckold men into paying for a woman's bastard equate to taking down predatory men?

How does taking down predatory men translate into the below?


Because those feminists are zealots. A zealot cannot be reasoned with because more likely than not, they are using their belief as a coping mechanism for the problems in their life. It's not the belief itself that spurs them into action, but the need to maintain that belief in order to excuse their own misery.
 
@The Original Sixth
You know, honestly I think that Feminist writers may not be so used to female fighters themselves

Non-Modern Feminists like say Robert E. Howard wrote female fighters who were Badass and he was from a way less modern age

Hell, I’m currently reading Larry Correia’s Monster Hunter International and both Julie and Holly are pretty Badass(not even the MCs), they’re not even the MC and not exactly in control and are just as hurt as the dudes so far.....Larry Correia’s a Libertarian-Mormon and pissed off said SJWs a few years back

When writing female characters, just don’t write em with so much more favoritism or emphasis on being Badass “in-spite” or “because” they’re female. Hell, I think all those fanservicey comicbook cheesecakes are more Badass than em.
You may not have meant it this way, but theres nothing wrong with writing a woman who is a physical badass "in spite" of being a woman. "Woman" is not an unconnected trait with no knock on factors into other traits. Woman, for general combat intents and purposes, means "This person is significantly smaller, slower, and weaker than the average combatant".

Every peak female athlete is a physical badass "in spite" of being a woman. We would not so delicately cage our language when talking about a smaller man out-boxing a man twice his size, or a one armed man outperforming a two armed man, and the difference is no less extreme.

If you write a woman who is some hulking 260lb demigod, even she is in some way defined by her exceptional nature as compared to women.



The strongest female character ever is Casca, and she spends a great deal of her personal narrative dealing with her menstrual cycle, being beaten, being sexually assaulted, and in a coma.
 
You may not have meant it this way, but theres nothing wrong with writing a woman who is a physical badass "in spite" of being a woman. "Woman" is not an unconnected trait with no knock on factors into other traits. Woman, for general combat intents and purposes, means "This person is significantly smaller, slower, and weaker than the average combatant".

Every peak female athlete is a physical badass "in spite" of being a woman. We would not so delicately cage our language when talking about a smaller man out-boxing a man twice his size, or a one armed man outperforming a two armed man, and the difference is no less extreme.

If you write a woman who is some hulking 260lb demigod, even she is in some way defined by her exceptional nature as compared to women.



The strongest female character ever is Casca, and she spends a great deal of her personal narrative dealing with her menstrual cycle, being beaten, being sexually assaulted, and in a coma.

Okay, that said, may as well not go on about being a woman too much then

Unless say, you really do have plans on showing a woman fighter in a society and world where it’s unusual

Like Brienne of Tarth, even though she’s extremely muscular and dude-like in appearance, she’s expected to still be a woman by other men and nobility

Course, like Casca, the pointing to her being a woman is definitely better written and not cringe worthy and weird as hell like modern feminist writers who I don’t think have much experience with past female characters themselves

Or really want to act as if they are the “first” or are “revolutionary” atm
 
More of a general point about how shitty combat is in movies, but this is basically my favorite scene in the MCU, for being very little else besides a portrayal of what it would be like for a completely normal real world soldier to fight two "weadon fu action girls" at the same time. He just face-tanks everything they throw at him and smashes them with one hit each. I mean, the whole sequence is just "what if movie people had to fight a real person", and I find it hysterical and cathartic.


 
@Bear Ribs
You know, I honestly find it kinda weird how Right Leaning Authors actually still sorta do a Diversity-Checklist to varying degrees with female & non-white characters being Badass and likable

And kinda ironic and hypocritical for me, but these days I’m kinda laughing when in-universe, there are Left Leaning characters accusing Right-Leaning characters of all sorts of stuff only, again, surprisinhly diverse and there even being female and non-white leaders or Badasses around on their side

Like Hugh Taigh from Aristillus accusing the entire city of being some white supremacist megacorp dystopia, only the person he’s talking to is a young female nigerian who is very educated and having issues with his accusations.....he gets pissed when she actually makes counterarguments and leaves and decides that she and so many other people will need reeducation
Well, they are basically being realistic leftists then.

Anybody remember this article from the Daily Beast saying “why men of color joining white supremacist groups” instead of thinking that maybe they aren’t white supremacist groups if they have so many non-white members.
 

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