Pre-War U.S Military (Fallout) tries to conquer Night City (Cyberpunk)

After playing FO76 Skyline Valley it was confirmed by late war that FO America was on the cusp of mass producing Liberty Prime equivalent robots.

The issue with the power source meant though that it could only be used defensively but with the tech they had this would have been momentarily. They also had experimental energy shields for Assaultrons that made them invulnerable to handheld weapons yes including Mini Nukes


...so FO tech is there ..
 
After playing FO76 Skyline Valley it was confirmed by late war that FO America was on the cusp of mass producing Liberty Prime equivalent robots.

The issue with the power source meant though that it could only be used defensively but with the tech they had this would have been momentarily. They also had experimental energy shields for Assaultrons that made them invulnerable to handheld weapons yes including Mini Nukes


...so FO tech is there ..
Yeah, no. The biggest problem is that they wouldn't be able to mass-produce them fast enough. They can take out the humans commanding said robots so easily that it's insulting, even in power armor. After that, they can simply take over the equipment maintaining said robots and crack the defenses that way.
 
Yeah, no. The biggest problem is that they wouldn't be able to mass-produce them fast enough. They can take out the humans commanding said robots so easily that it's insulting, even in power armor. After that, they can simply take over the equipment maintaining said robots and crack the defenses that way.
Not really FO76 had shown that FO AI can operate independently and encrypt themselves. That's basically what MODUS does.


You could maybe kill some of the flesh bags but Fallout A.I don't need to be micro managed
 
This might be me putting my paw in my mouth since Scooby is the OP but there's no Liberty Prime(s) in the OP.
 
Cyberpunk has their own power armor that is leagues beyond anything Fallout has. They are basically like friggin Gundams.

I'd have to check my Cyberpunk Military Sourcebook but I'm pretty sure the Mobile Suits from Cyberpunk 2020 were fairly superior to Fallout Power Armor. They were pretty solid power armor suits, protomech type of deals.

One of the things that was impressive was at the end of Cyberpunk: Edgerunners when David Martinez utilized the prototype Arasaka Cyberskeleton. That thing took on multiple Armored Vehicles, including what appeared to be modern hovertanks and surviving barrages of rocket artillery explosions plus all of the later feats. And then in the climatic episode, despite the show going kinda full animeweirdness. Adam Smasher seemed to be on the level of Cyberskeleton David so.... I mean at its peak, Cyberpunk 2077 has some genuine superhero level style super soldiers that do exist.

I was actually impressed. Playing the game itself, I didn't get the same impression of how formidable Adam Smasher could be but watching the show, it boosted things.
 
I'd have to check my Cyberpunk Military Sourcebook but I'm pretty sure the Mobile Suits from Cyberpunk 2020 were fairly superior to Fallout Power Armor. They were pretty solid power armor suits, protomech type of deals.

One of the things that was impressive was at the end of Cyberpunk: Edgerunners when David Martinez utilized the prototype Arasaka Cyberskeleton. That thing took on multiple Armored Vehicles, including what appeared to be modern hovertanks and surviving barrages of rocket artillery explosions plus all of the later feats. And then in the climatic episode, despite the show going kinda full animeweirdness. Adam Smasher seemed to be on the level of Cyberskeleton David so.... I mean at its peak, Cyberpunk 2077 has some genuine superhero level style super soldiers that do exist.

I was actually impressed. Playing the game itself, I didn't get the same impression of how formidable Adam Smasher could be but watching the show, it boosted things.

Adam Smasher is just a brain in a jar, There are others mech bodies similar to his and they are basically walking tanks.
 
Adam Smasher is just a brain in a jar, There are others mech bodies similar to his and they are basically walking tanks.

Adam Smasher is still pretty exceptional though. As was David's performance towards the end of Edgerunners and of course V in the actual game. Unless I'm missing something?

Unless your referencing actual mechs in the game setting of 2077?
 
Adam Smasher is still pretty exceptional though. As was David's performance towards the end of Edgerunners and of course V in the actual game. Unless I'm missing something?

Unless your referencing actual mechs in the game setting of 2077?
In the table top there are a number of people like Adam Smasher that are purely military and their bodies are very similar to his in capability. Now unlike Smasher they generally tend to frequently become full on dysfunctional cyber psycho's that have to be put down so the suits have remote kill switches.
 
... to give you an idea for those not well-versed in Cyberpunk lore about their power armor: fighting against one while being a bunch of Edgerunners means that you're fucked. Most of them can easily take out tanks if given the chance, and very few can be hurt by anything less than autocannons and HMGs.

To give everyone here an equivalency, you're foot infantry when Clan Elementals make their appearance during the initial stages of the Clan Invasion. That's how bad things are for the Fallout boys.
 
... to give you an idea for those not well-versed in Cyberpunk lore about their power armor: fighting against one while being a bunch of Edgerunners means that you're fucked. Most of them can easily take out tanks if given the chance, and very few can be hurt by anything less than autocannons and HMGs.

To give everyone here an equivalency, you're foot infantry when Clan Elementals make their appearance during the initial stages of the Clan Invasion. That's how bad things are for the Fallout boys.

Cyberpunk also has a number of energy weapons like radiation guns and such. That said they have no real counter to things like pulse rifles and plasma weaponry. Truth be told this match up is a weird one because both sides have weapons that the other has no real counter for.
 
Cyberpunk also has a number of energy weapons like radiation guns and such. That said they have no real counter to things like pulse rifles and plasma weaponry. Truth be told this match up is a weird one because both sides have weapons that the other has no real counter for.
Cyberpunk has energy weaponry being rare as hen's teeth in 2020 (or, at least, what I can gather via the Guns! Guns! Guns! 3G3 to Cyberpunk 2020 conversion section). Everyone uses either good ol' bullets or -as it started later on- electromag and electrothermal guns.

However, my point still stands. The Fallout folks will not have a good time here, and they'll be the PBIs when a Cyberpunk power armor that isn't purely for police/special forces work shows up.
 
Unless I'm missing something those 3 Robotic Divisions are probably going to turn on their makers as soon as the NC netrunners look in their general direction.
 
Unless I'm missing something those 3 Robotic Divisions are probably going to turn on their makers as soon as the NC netrunners look in their general direction.

Hacking (and computers in general) in Fallout is pretty different from in Cyberpunk... And vice versa.
 
Hacking (and computers in general) in Fallout is pretty different from in Cyberpunk... And vice versa.
The biggest difference being that Cyberpunk computers are way more sophisticated and their hackers/programmers are a lot more skilled.

There's a big difference between a caveman and a space marine, that doesn't mean the space marine would have any problems dispatching the cave man.

Unless Fallout has credible feats when it comes to cybersecurity or some sort of OoC defense against intrusions then they're fucked.
 
The biggest difference being that Cyberpunk computers are way more sophisticated and their hackers/programmers are a lot more skilled.

There's a big difference between a caveman and a space marine, that doesn't mean the space marine would have any problems dispatching the cave man.

Unless Fallout has credible feats when it comes to cybersecurity or some sort of OoC defense against intrusions then they're fucked.

The biggest difference isn't in sophistication, but the base technology is completely different. Computers in Fallout don't run on the computer microchips and the like in the real world or in Cyberpunk because the Fallout verse never moved beyond Transistors. There's no cybersecurity "feats" because Fallout doesn't have a cyber anything due to the lack of an internet or wide area network. Only local networks exist.

There's rare exceptions like with how House sees through his Securitrons but ultimately completely different systems.
 
The biggest difference isn't in sophistication, but the base technology is completely different. Computers in Fallout don't run on the computer microchips and the like in the real world or in Cyberpunk because the Fallout verse never moved beyond Transistors. There's no cybersecurity "feats" because Fallout doesn't have a cyber anything due to the lack of an internet or wide area network. Only local networks exist.

There's rare exceptions like with how House sees through his Securitrons but ultimately completely different systems.
That's literally a difference in sophistication though, the difference in the base technology of Fallout is just the fact that it's more primitive. Transistors aren't some alien concept that nobody's ever heard of, it's just something that fell out of use because they developed much better tech.

And in regards to local networks, netrunners break into those all the time.

The notion that it would take them any real amount of time to compromise and subvert these robotic units is ridiculous.

Edit: The people in cyberpunk are almost certainly still using transistors, the stricken through part was a retarded brainfart.
 
That's literally a difference in sophistication though, the difference in the base technology of Fallout is just the fact that it's more primitive. Transistors aren't some alien concept that nobody's ever heard of, it's just something that fell out of use because they developed much better tech.

And in regards to local networks, netrunners break into those all the time.

The notion that it would take them any real amount of time to compromise and subvert these robotic units is ridiculous.

Edit: The people in cyberpunk are almost certainly still using transistors, the stricken through part was a retarded brainfart.

This is akin to stating, obviously Star Trek is more advanced than Star Wars or Warhammer 40K or something, just look at how advanced it seems to be.

Also I had a brainfart myself. I meant to say vacuum tubes instead of transistors. My bad. They do have transistors of course, but most of their base technology is based on vacuum tubes for computers. But still, microchip technology didn't advance beyond transistors much.

It's not a difference of sophistication. It's a difference of base technology. The robotics and computers that have evolved out of Fallouts "primitive" tech include bog standard robots like your everyday Mr. Handy or military Gutsy having Human levels of intelligence and creativity and personality etc. Not even exceptional ones like Curie, but random ones like Sergeant RL-03 and Codsworth. And it's much the same with even Eyebots like ED-E or Assaultrons like Ada and so on and so forth. Technology in Fallout is different than Cyberpunks, but its no less sophisticated. Cyberpunk does have artificial intelligences, but those are often the result of massive investment by corporations or the government or exceptional organizations, while in Fallout they're cranking out robots by the dozen with just as much plausible sapience as your Net based artificial intelligence.

The primitive computers are so ridiculous that they've created avenues of research that far surpass Cyberpunk in many ways. Adam Smasher and cutting edge brain in the jar technology is somehow superior to how Mr. House has managed to survive through the centuries, or the Think Tank, Dr. Morbius? Cybernetics based off of prim

Your basing the ease of hacking into and compromising robots closed off to the internet of Cyberpunk as because they're primitive is off base. Most robots in Fallout are apparently pretty advanced, and furthermore commonplace technology in that setting. Common robots in Fallout are comparable if not surpassing that we see in Cyberpunk 2077 even. Then you go into the Synths and what the Institute has done and that's just another step further in advancement. Fallout has a lot of technology that makes Cyberpunk 2077 actually look fairly primitive by comparison.

I don't see how Netrunners can hack into robots based on a wildly different base technology closed off from any nets they are running and furthermore "ridiculously easily" hack robotic programs comparable if far more advanced then what they deal with in their own setting. There's no Net or Cyberspace in Fallout and there's no cybermodems or cyberdecks to access Fallout's closed networks. Where's the configuration and transformation algorithims that turn the Net or data into 3D spaces to navigate etc? There are keyboards with command interfaces, but that's how you hack in Fallout already.
 
205,000 troops (and robots) should be well enough to capture a city of seven million people. Imagine a quarter of the population is military aged males or whatever so it's ten to one at best numbers wise if they're pressing everyone into service. And there's no way that's happening I feel.

Most of the largest gangs have memberships ranging between low hundreds to low thousands and there's like a dozen of them. I'd be surprised if you total the gangs, police and corporate security if it adds up to a hundred thousand or so combatants.

Hm. Quick google assuming were talking 2077 as the most familiar version of night city, its wiki page suggests pop of about 6 million people. The basic rule of thumb for an insurgency generally seems to be something around a 50-1 ratio. So, 6 million people would like to have at least 120k occupation army.

However, that's for occupation, not conquest. Conquest then we have to worry a bit less about the population, and more about space. Also according to the wiki, the city occupies about 75 km^2.

1000


This suggests its about 10 km wide, which lines up with measuring the real life location its based on. On the one hand this isn't a lot of frontage to man overall, even at 1,000 men per km that would only be about 10,000 people to hold the front fairly strongly. That however is to the attackers great disadvantage, because it also means 10,000 defenders can also hold the cities permitter quite strongly too.

This is a problem for the Fallout army, since it actually might mean the front is too narrow to effectively make use of their numbers. Assuming the actual city government had even 1% of its population it could reasonably call up, that's some 60,000 people available to man the parameter, which sea to sea with rounding up to a 100 km^2 that needs protected is still only a perimeter of maybe 40 km. Which would allow a troop density of about 1,500 per km, or higher than 1 per meter. Obviously you'd do something less dense with any level of organization, say one guy per 10 meters, but that means the front line can be potentially held with merely 4,000 people deployed to that front. Then obviously the rest held back to steadily feed into the front lines as casualties mount there, or on fall back lines. And this much area being protected suggests the defense of the city is starting something like 3-5 km out from the city itself in the badlands, so there is actually space to fall back into steadily tougher defensive grounds.

So, a mere 50,000 could quite potentially man 10 defensive lines to a fairly strong degree. And because the front is so narrow, the Fallout people don't have much other choice than bashing into those lines head on, either trying for frontal assaults into entrenched infantry, which is something even not particularly well drilled troops are capable off, or trying to grind Night city out in a siege, which at least in the initial list they don't seem to have the particularly heavy artillery you'd like for that. If the artillery is only about 10 km range, it might be possible to hold the Americans back enough for some time to keep the docks and certainly the spaceport out of easy artillery range.

And if you have a long siege, especially if the docks stay somewhat functional, then Night cities numbers, wealth, and connections can start coming in. Given time you can eventually mobilize, say 10% into various guard formations of various levels of loyalty getting some 600,000 under arms, outnumbering the invaders some 3-1, and with the docks keep importing more heavy weaponry/mercenaries.

Probably bad for the local area to have half a million armed men in all their own little regiments, but that gang war/power struggle is future Night Cities problem.

So, even attacking shoulder to shoulder over the 10 km front the Americans can only throw about 10,000 men at once at the city. An attack with 10-20k on the front would literally be talking about attack densities like the NCR in the below Sodaz video, across the entire front.



So, likely no one attack, between automatic weapons fire and any artillery the Nighters have, can involve more than about 5-20k people. Any more density is just asking for unnecessary casualties. Which also means the defenders never have to be able to hold against more than about 20k at once, despite the potentially quite lopsided overall numbers.

This is then the potential battle of thermopile situation: 20k good soldiers can hold off 200k okay ones, because the numbers can't be properly brought to bear: a 10-1 numerical advantage instead manifests as several rounds of 1-1 combat, where individual skill can much more manifest. I could easily see Night City having 20,000 well equipped and at least somewhat disciplined people.

I don't think the virtibirds help too much: I think they can carry about 6 people, so 300 of them can at most deploy some 1,800 people, which likely isn't enough to overwhelm locals all that much. Plus the relatively small size of the area hurts them again. A modern stinger missile has something like a 5 km range against helicopter level threats. Which means 1 Stinger missile team in the core of the city could potentially cover the entire city! I think there is probably a lot more than 1 team equipped with Stinger level equipment. And Night city is not lacking in airborne assets.

I know less about Cyberpunk than Fallout, but the battlefield is so constrained that I think the force assembled would be pretty poor on the target. I'm not sure they will actually be able to penetrate into the city core before petering out.

Edit:
@Husky_Khan , where are you getting 200,000? Isn't it 5 divisions of about 20,000, so about 100,000 combat troops, plus whatever the number of support troops would be?
 
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