What if Saul (Paul) of Tarsus doesn't experience a vision of Jesus on the Road to Damascus? FWIW, I personally extremely strongly suspect that Saul (Paul) hallucinated here, possibly as a result of something such as a heat stroke. (I'm also skeptical about the other alleged post-resurrection appearances of Jesus, being inclined to view them as visionary experiences, but Saul's experience in particular strikes me as being especially likely to be a hallucination of some sort.) Anyway, without this vision, regardless of whether it was a hallucination or something else, what subsequently happens to/with Christianity as well as with Saul himself?
Saul (Paul) of Tarsus doesn't experience a vision of Jesus on the Road to Damascus
- Thread starter WolfBear
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History Learner
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ASB, God had use for Paul and this is why it happened as it did. Deus Vult.
Frankly, I myself only believe in this God, who has much bigger balls than your own God has anyway!
But Yeah, as I said, I personally believe that Saul (Paul) hallucinated on the road to Damascus. I'm not fully sure what to make of the other alleged post-resurrection appearances of Jesus, but Saul's experience strikes me as being rather similar to, say, Joan of Arc claiming to have seen angels and subsequently being willing to risk her life for this belief of hers.
History Learner
Well-known member
Frankly, I myself only believe in this God, who has much bigger balls than your own God has anyway!
But Yeah, as I said, I personally believe that Saul (Paul) hallucinated on the road to Damascus. I'm not fully sure what to make of the other alleged post-resurrection appearances of Jesus, but Saul's experience strikes me as being rather similar to, say, Joan of Arc claiming to have seen angels and subsequently being willing to risk her life for this belief of hers.
I thought you were Jewish.
I am an agnostic Jew. But I do like the FSM. The thing is, though, that while I'm skeptical of the post-Resurrection appearances of Jesus, viewing them as being extraordinarily unlikely with the current principles of medical science (we can't even revive cryonically preserved people right now, over 2,000 years later), I do wonder what exactly caused people to believe in them in the first place. Visionary experiences or something else? Vissionary experiences strikes me as being most likely, but what if there's some other explanation, such as Jesus never actually dying or there subsequently being some Jesus impostor? So, Yeah, I view the Resurrection story with an extraordinary amount of skepticism, but I'm just trying to figure out why exactly people believed in it for so long.
At the same time, though, it's not impossible for a lot of people to engage in unusual behavior:
Or for a lot of people to claim to have witnessed miracles:
If only I could actually go back in time and see what actually happened to Jesus after his death, you know? But of course I'd obviously need a guaranteed way to get back home to the present-day afterwards.
History Learner
Well-known member
Being a believer, especially to the faith in question, makes a big difference in your views on these sorts of things; I'm Protestant, but currently considering conversion to Catholicism or Orthodoxy. @Kram is a Jewish to Catholic convert, IIRC.
As I said, when it comes to things like this, I default to Deus Vult. My own personal faith makes me consider that the Birth of Jesus and the foundation of the Christian Faith as something that will inevitably happen, as part of the Divine Plan, no matter the divergence in history for example.
As I said, when it comes to things like this, I default to Deus Vult. My own personal faith makes me consider that the Birth of Jesus and the foundation of the Christian Faith as something that will inevitably happen, as part of the Divine Plan, no matter the divergence in history for example.
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FWIW, ideally, I'd like to find out what actually happened with Jesus after his death so that the dispute over this could finally be permanently resolved. But that's asking for too much without time travel!
But if you're curious, No, I don't believe that Jesus was the literal son of God or anything like that. If we had DNA testing of Jesus and his biological father, we'd actually be able to prove it, of course!
I suppose that Muslims similarly view Muhammad's birth and life work as a part of the Divine Plan, eh?
Well speaking as a devout atheist - hence not believing anything divine involved it could well make a hell of a difference. Saul/Paul drastically changed the approach to Christianity. For instance as I understand it before him Christians still saw themselves as Jews basically and considered that you had to become Jewish before you could become Jewish. Its been suggested that the Christian church, in its structure and approach owes far more to Paul than to Jesus. Probably also significant that rather than a member of a small group of Semites in Palestine Paul was a Roman citizen and had far more knowledge of and connections with the rest of the Roman world/empire.
As such you could end up with Christianity ending up as a branch of Judaism. Possibly the dominant one after the Jewish Zealots rebel and are defeated, assuming this still occurs. A more pacifistic sect like Christianity under Jesus who was willing to at least pay lip service to Roman rule "render until God what is Gods and to Caesar what is Caesar's" could well earn imperial favour, at least unless and until it develops a more aggressive and exclusive nature.
If so and you still get the growing autocracy in the empire as it moves from the Principate to the Dominate and also some equivalent of the 3rd century crisis does some other more centralised faith such as Solar worship come to dominate the empire?
It should be remembered of course that even OTL the Jews remained a sizeable minority, even largely in exile in the early part of the empire. As such its unlikely that Judaism would disappear totally any more than OTL and probably without a more aggressive Christianity becoming dominant in greater numbers. Although a lot would depend on what religion emerges as the major player in the empire - unless some regenerated 'paganism' was to do so possible.
gral
Well-known member
As I understand it, that was already changing; the Martyrdom of Stephen had already happened by then(Saul had allegedly participated of it). Without the conversion of Saul, the splitting of Christianity from Judaism would take longer, though, and probably there would be some changes.
Do you believe that the idea of the Resurrection idea had already existed before Saul?