The Big Three Space Science Fiction Franchises Discussion

[evilchumlee]

I think the main drawback of Dune and its the same with other literary based scifi classics like Hyperion, Foundation and Culture and so forth is that the novels are pretty popular and pretty well known, even seeping into the wider culture a bit, but without proper films, games and television series etc, they can't really get into the mainstream of nerdy scifi, especially with Versus discussions. Dune does't translate well to discussions of space combat for example.

There is a certain... something that some works have over others to launch them more into the geek fandom zeitgeist. Yeah, we all like Dune, Foundation, Culture, etc. But... we don't build huge fandoms around them.

Exactly WHAT it takes? It's partially lowest common denominator. Yes, TV, films, games, etc. very much help. But... Dune has those. Part of it is just being... "nerd cool"? It doesn't have to be deep and thought provoking. It has to just be cool.

I think alot of the big fandoms like big, expansive universes they can make sense of. Very easy for Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, Babylon 5, etc. alot of details to obsess over. Something like Dune... is more focused. It tells you what you need to know about its world, to tell its story. I can't really obsess over Harkonnen ship classes and fleet numbers.

It's hard to put a pin on exactly what the "mass appeal" is. You've got stuff like Warhammer 40k which has SOME of the ingredients, and certainly a massive, detailed world to obsess over. But it's roots are always going to be a tabletop game, which is a niche market.

My own personal big three are Trek, Wars and Gate.

Never got into B5.

 

[Agent23]

There is a certain... something that some works have over others to launch them more into the geek fandom zeitgeist. Yeah, we all like Dune, Foundation, Culture, etc. But... we don't build huge fandoms around them.

Because they are complex works that do not appeal to the pop-culture slob-eating normies.

Wars and Trek can be seen as basically dumbed down versions of that stuff.

Never got into B5.

My condolences.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Because they are complex works that do not appeal to the pop-culture slob-eating normies.

Wars and Trek can be seen as basically dumbed down versions of that stuff.

Complexity doesn't correlate to quality though. And we've had complex works that have been popular like with the early seasons of Game of Thrones and the aforementioned Babylon 5 and the success of the recent Dune movie. And it doesn't explain why say... Star Trek and Star Wars is more considered for Big Three style fandom then say the Honorverse.

This thread isn't just a popularity contest as well, it's a popularity contest of certain widespread fandoms. The title of the thread is why ST, SW and B5 were the Big Three back in the day and who would be nowadays. That's not a direct parallel to "pop-culture slob-eating normies" but more of a wide swathe of scifi fans who like a wide variety of scifi to the point they like discusses Versus and What Ifs and World Building and other comparisons between factions etc.

 

[Sergeant Foley]

Inspired by the classic idea from old Science Fiction/Spacebattles Versus Discussion of 'The Big Three' being Star Wars, Star Trek and Babylon 5 what do you think are the franchises that would be your favorites to discuss, or read about in crossover fics and versus matches in a new Big Three, or maybe to expand it more ranked as a Top Ten list.

I actually think Star Wars would be a shoe for a new Big Three and the top of any list. It was a popular franchise decades ago and still is now. It's still active with lots of media still being published and produced about it, if not actually more content now thanks to Disney over saturation. It's filled with space battles and conflict and thousands of different characters and lore bits and millenia of fictional history across multiple eras and canon continuities and a lot of it is easy to research and look up either in sourcebooks or online. So yeah, Star Wars would be number one.

Star Trek used to be in the top three and it still might be. There's still new media regarding it but a lot of it isn't really lore that Versus/Crossover content creators can really chew on. Star Trek Online is doing work in making Star Trek relevant though. So while I can see it still in the top three potentially, there is another... obvious setting that might slip into the Top Three... or even the Top Two.

Warhammer 40K. Despite having no movies or television series about it, the memes alone leave its impact on nerd and scifi culture. It has a huge setting background with lots of easily accessible lore and discussion on it as well, just as expansive as Star Wars lore is. Plus there's still lots of media being churned out in the form of the tabletop game, novels, and an endless supply of video and computer games.

Babylon 5 was big at the time, but when the television series ended, none of the spinoffs really generated much interest and it basically became a desert for new content and thus even ongoing interest in such a beloved franchise pewtered out. It wouldn't be in any sort of Big Three nowadays.

Stargate is like Babylon 5 media wise but lasted even longer, across multiple television series and a smattering of other content as well. It eventually came to an abrupt end but at a later point of time so its lore and fandom is still fresher in the minds of most people. And a lot of the lore bits and sci-tech is accessible on the internets as well for easy research.

Halo is one of the best selling video game settings period and spawned its own expanded universe of novels and comics. The main difference is that its main medium is video games, as opposed to television series and/or movies. In the Versus community it probably has a larger presence then even Stargate and even things like Star Trek but it's still weird to place it somewhere as though there have always been more fans of the video game series, I dunno how that translates and compares to a versus/crossover fic community in comparison to something like Stargate or Warhammer 40K.

Hinging off of that is Mass Effect which is like Halo but a smaller impact. It was a great self contained story for the most part but didn't spin off nearly as much of an expanded universe that Halo did. Plus it didn't spawn off large numbers of increasingly derivative sequels either. Very sad.

Battletech is the other one I want to mention. Back in the day it was being discussed as a fourth addition to the Big Three with a "Battletech for Big Four" type of campaign amongst nerds. Battletech is still pretty present in nerd culture too. It almost seemed to dry up in visible interest for some time but is kind of experiencing a renaissance thanks to the internet community and the like and new content in the form fo games and novels are still being made. Too bad the current game developers are woke asf but I digress.

There's lots of other settings as well that can be considered like the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Gundam, Battlestar Galactica, The Expanse, and much, much more etc.

Soooo for me personally... I guess a Big Three would actually be...

Star Wars, Star Trek and Warhammer 40K. Might not be the most popular per fan or whatever but cultural inertia has to speak for something. In an actual list though... Star Trek is the chanciest member though, it could easily be knocked off but as a property, its name recognition alone is pretty strong.

As for a personal top ten of faves I'd like to consoom and discuss crossover content for...

1. Star Wars
2. Warhammer 40K
3. Stargate
4. Battletech
5. Aliens v. Predator
6. Babylon 5
7. Mass Effect
8. Star Trek
9. X-Com
10. Halo

One of my favorites are the "Stargate" movies from the early 1990s.

 

[evilchumlee]

My condolences.

I know about it. I know the story is good. I just wasn't a fan when it was being aired originally, and trying to go back and watch it is painful. It did not age well. I tried really hard to get into B5 but I can't get past the presentation.

This thread isn't just a popularity contest as well, it's a popularity contest of certain widespread fandoms. The title of the thread is why ST, SW and B5 were the Big Three back in the day and who would be nowadays. That's not a direct parallel to "pop-culture slob-eating normies" but more of a wide swathe of scifi fans who like a wide variety of scifi to the point they like discusses Versus and What Ifs and World Building and other comparisons between factions etc.

I'm not sure there IS a "Big Three" anymore. We're left in a situation where there is a clear winner overall... Star Wars is the chosen one that came out on top. I think Star Trek still holds onto #2 of a Big Two... but at this point, we are in a good and bad situation. There's no clear third... but there are generally more smaller fish in the sea than there were 20 years ago. Even things that existed back then were a bit more niche, like say 40k. 40k was always around on the periphery, but it feels like in the past few years it has elevated itself in the general sci-fi fan zeitgeist. Nowhere near what I would say a Big Three.

Some franchises don't work well in this specific context. Take 40k, it's a perfect example to keep using. It has the ingredients. But... doing this versus debates is tough. IoM vs. Anything anyone talks about = IoM wins. All the time. Sure you can bring in like, the Culture or something but... now you're digging down in the niche that most fans aren't into. You can't do 40k vs. Star Trek. Even 40k vs. SW isn't great. 40k vs. B5 is a joke. It was always hard with Stargate on the flip side too, if you wanted to do a vs. debate, you had to really jump through hoops to get a context for it.

Vs. debates aren't everything though. How about world building? 40k is good and bad for that. 40k has an incredibly deep lore... that is probably too deep, and gets retconned on a whim, and is also set up in such a way that nothing changes. It does too much and allows people something of a blank canvas to do basically whatever they want, but at the same time, it's all completely meaningless and there is only war.

What Ifs? 40k might not be the best platform for that, either. Yeah you could dig deep into the lore and find stuff, but again you're veering way off the mainstream. The mainstream will ask "What if the Emperor didn't die.", "What if the Emperor came back", etc. Most of it kind of ends the same way.

Really, in the end, it's the mainstream appeal. Star Wars has that. Star Trek generally has that. There's a few others that wax and wane.

 

[Husky_Khan]

I know about it. I know the story is good. I just wasn't a fan when it was being aired originally, and trying to go back and watch it is painful. It did not age well. I tried really hard to get into B5 but I can't get past the presentation.

I'm not sure there IS a "Big Three" anymore. We're left in a situation where there is a clear winner overall... Star Wars is the chosen one that came out on top. I think Star Trek still holds onto #2 of a Big Two... but at this point, we are in a good and bad situation. There's no clear third... but there are generally more smaller fish in the sea than there were 20 years ago. Even things that existed back then were a bit more niche, like say 40k. 40k was always around on the periphery, but it feels like in the past few years it has elevated itself in the general sci-fi fan zeitgeist. Nowhere near what I would say a Big Three.

Some franchises don't work well in this specific context. Take 40k, it's a perfect example to keep using. It has the ingredients. But... doing this versus debates is tough. IoM vs. Anything anyone talks about = IoM wins. All the time. Sure you can bring in like, the Culture or something but... now you're digging down in the niche that most fans aren't into. You can't do 40k vs. Star Trek. Even 40k vs. SW isn't great. 40k vs. B5 is a joke. It was always hard with Stargate on the flip side too, if you wanted to do a vs. debate, you had to really jump through hoops to get a context for it.

Vs. debates aren't everything though. How about world building? 40k is good and bad for that. 40k has an incredibly deep lore... that is probably too deep, and gets retconned on a whim, and is also set up in such a way that nothing changes. It does too much and allows people something of a blank canvas to do basically whatever they want, but at the same time, it's all completely meaningless and there is only war.

What Ifs? 40k might not be the best platform for that, either. Yeah you could dig deep into the lore and find stuff, but again you're veering way off the mainstream. The mainstream will ask "What if the Emperor didn't die.", "What if the Emperor came back", etc. Most of it kind of ends the same way.

Really, in the end, it's the mainstream appeal. Star Wars has that. Star Trek generally has that. There's a few others that wax and wane.

There was always controversy in the original Versus/Fandom Communities of having Babylon 5 as part of the Big Three AFAIK so it's natural to have discussion over what should take third place. There was even discussion that, due to how popular Battletech was, as I mentioned before, should be added to the Big Three (ie Battletech for the Big Four).

And I'd actually hard disagree on Warhammer 40K not being conductive to World Building, What Ifs and Versus Debates. I think some of the most common versus topics involve 40K or crossovers/comparisons regarding 40K. There's Doomguy in 40K videos and Darth Vader versus a Space Marine Librarian and all sorts of other force on force Versus matches and comparisons regarding Warhammer 40K and other Universes. And they get a lot of views if they're on YouTube or discussion in forums and other communities in general.

I really think the drawbacks you bring up regarding 40K are kinda just as easily interpreted as its strengths. And retcons aren't even a big issue anymore thanks to what we've seen with total reboots of Star Wars and Star Trek as of late. The What Ifs also seem really narrowly focused. There's so many What Ifs that are discussed in 40K that stating they'd "end the same way" seems like myopic tbh.

But yeah, generally speaking I might actually argue that Warhammer 40K (and maybe others) have a stronger case for being Big Three then maybe even Babylon 5 did back then.