What if the Crusades would have won the Battle of La Forbie in 1244? Here's how this battle's outcome is described on Wikipedia:
What do you think, @Circle of Willis?
What do you think, @Circle of Willis?
The Crusaders win the Battle of La Forbie in 1244
- Thread starter WolfBear
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Circle of Willis
Well-known member
Winning even a shattering victory at La Forbie and retaking Jerusalem (yet again) probably won't matter in the long-term as long as Syria and Egypt haven't been neutralized as Muslim powerbases, IMO. The Muslims can always try again, the crusaders only need one OTL-La-Forbie-like defeat at this stage to stay down for the count. Their best bet for long-term survival is Kitbuqa winning the Battle of Ain Jalut and treating Egypt like another Persia/Central Asia.
How many extra decades or centuries will a Mongol victory at Ain Jalut buy the Crusaders?
Circle of Willis
Well-known member
Let's be optimistic and say a century at minimum - the Mamluks opened their war with the Il-Khanate by executing a Mongol delegation who'd demanded his surrender and nailing their heads above Cairo's gates, and I'm sure we both know what the Mongols thought of people who killed their diplomats, so Egypt will probably be crippled for at least that long once Kitbuqa's done with the place. Much depends on whether the Mongols can stick around and whether they still convert to Islam, of course.
If the Mongols convert to Christianity though, then frankly the crusaders will likely be able to stick around in perpetuity, either as a Mongol vassal or (more likely) as direct Mongol subjects after being eventually absorbed into a Christian Khanate based out of Egypt or Syria.
If the Mongols convert to Christianity though, then frankly the crusaders will likely be able to stick around in perpetuity, either as a Mongol vassal or (more likely) as direct Mongol subjects after being eventually absorbed into a Christian Khanate based out of Egypt or Syria.
Why exactly would Mongols who rule Egypt want to convert to Christianity, though? Simply to spite the Mamluks for murdering their diplomats in cold blood?
Circle of Willis
Well-known member
Kitbuqa himself was a Christian, as was his boss Hulagu's favorite wife Doquz Khatun, and conversion to Christianity would also be a good way to endear the Mongols to their Coptic subjects (whose support they will definitely need to administer Egypt after genociding the Arab Muslims) & crusader allies sometime down the road.
Do you know what percentage of Egypt's population were Copts back then?
Interesting. This could, of course, also help explain why exactly Egypt was the only place in North Africa that retained a sizable native Christian presence up to the present-day. The Almohads forced virtually all of the Maghreb's Christians to convert to Islam, if I recall correctly. They did the same with Maghrebi Jews, but they later returned to their faith and in any case their numbers were later significantly supplemented by the subsequent arrival of Iberian Jewish refugees following the Reconquista.
In this scenario,we have Christian Egypt ruled by mongols.Could Persia become Christian,too? and what happen to Egypt once mongols there lost power? Coptic dynasty,or invasion?
Another question - til 1517 one od christian sudan kingdoms survived.Now,they could last longer,and any muslims there would be destroyed.
Circle of Willis
Well-known member
Not sure about a fully Christian Persia, but given the absolute devastation the Mongol conquests inflicted on Persia & Iraq (with the Syriac Christians being consistently spared thanks to Doquz Khatun's influence on Hulagu Khan, as occurred at Baghdad) I could see at least a much larger Christian minority or even plurality flourishing thanks to a Christian Il-Khanate & successors. Maybe 20-30% of the population in both regions would be Christian.
The Mongols destroying the Mamluks averts the decline of the Nubian kingdom of Makuria, which was devastated by Baibars and his heirs from the 1260s onward. I could actually imagine Makuria absorbing both Nubia and Coptic Egypt once (and if) Mongol power fades - in a sense recreating the 25th Dynasty of Egypt, by way of a Nubian-led Christian power stretching around the Nile from Alexandria to Soba (south of Khartoum, which hasn't been built yet). Alternatively, a Christian and 'Copticized' Mongol dynasty might come to vassalize/absorb the Nubian kingdoms if they remain strong. There, now Netflix can cast historically accurate black Mongols!
Not sure about a fully Christian Persia, but given the absolute devastation the Mongol conquests inflicted on Persia & Iraq (with the Syriac Christians being consistently spared thanks to Doquz Khatun's influence on Hulagu Khan, as occurred at Baghdad) I could see at least a much larger Christian minority or even plurality flourishing thanks to a Christian Il-Khanate & successors. Maybe 20-30% of the population in both regions would be Christian.
The Mongols destroying the Mamluks averts the decline of the Nubian kingdom of Makuria, which was devastated by Baibars and his heirs from the 1260s onward. I could actually imagine Makuria absorbing both Nubia and Coptic Egypt once (and if) Mongol power fades - in a sense recreating the 25th Dynasty of Egypt, by way of a Nubian-led Christian power stretching around the Nile from Alexandria to Soba (south of Khartoum, which hasn't been built yet). Alternatively, a Christian and 'Copticized' Mongol dynasty might come to vassalize/absorb the Nubian kingdoms if they remain strong. There, now Netflix can cast historically accurate black Mongols!
Yes,it could goes both ways.But,no matter what happen,muslims in Algier and other cities would be cut off.In that case,Spain could reclaim part of Africa later.
Or mongols could do so,using Berbers as allies - they always hated arabs.
P.S if Neftlix exist in this reality,they would made Chinghis Khan and all other mongols black.
Yes,it could goes both ways.But,no matter what happen,muslims in Algier and other cities would be cut off.In that case,Spain could reclaim part of Africa later.
Or mongols could do so,using Berbers as allies - they always hated arabs.
P.S if Neftlix exist in this reality,they would made Chinghis Khan and all other mongols black.
Egypt could actually be an interesting racial mixture place in this TL: Mongols, Egyptians, Arabs, black Africans, and European Crusaders all in one place!
Reminds me of this Medieval Mediterranean fusion culture: