What if Hitler made his last stand at Rastenburg and forced his regime and forces to do it too?

[raharris1973]

What if Hitler refused to evacuate his Rastenburg East Prussia headquarters, to allow his inner circle or successors to evacuate, and fed everything he could into doing a last stand that far east, a) figuring he's a dead man and his regime is over if it can't stop the Russians or turn things around by that point, if b) if (a) he doesn't want to live and the German people don't deserve to live.

 

[Buba]

He dies in late January and the 12 Year Reich capitulates.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

If he's captured alive, this would result in a dramatic change in the timeline. Stalin will milk his show trial as much as possible, perhaps even parading Hitler around Russia for all to see, and newsreels of it will be shown around the world. The Soviets trying Hitler will outweigh whatever guys the Allies got their hands on. The revisionist myth that it was the Allies who singlehandedly won WW2 will be much, much less credible than OTL. The Soviet Union will play a far larger role in the retellings of WW2 and come off as far more powerful. The Red Scare will be larger than before. The ripples of this would be too far reaching to fully imagine.

 

[ATP]

If he's captured alive, this would result in a dramatic change in the timeline. Stalin will milk his show trial as much as possible, perhaps even parading Hitler around Russia for all to see, and newsreels of it will be shown around the world. The Soviets trying Hitler will outweigh whatever guys the Allies got their hands on. The revisionist myth that it was the Allies who singlehandedly won WW2 will be much, much less credible than OTL. The Soviet Union will play a far larger role in the retellings of WW2 and come off as far more powerful. The Red Scare will be larger than before. The ripples of this would be too far reaching to fully imagine.

First - Hitler would not let that happen.
Second - myth about soviet winning war all by themselves was live in world anyway,and KGB russia is still pushing it.
Third - soviets was retelling WW2 from 1945,thanks to that people forget that WW2 started when allied german-soviet forces attacked Poland.And it is working till our days.

 

[raharris1973]

He dies in late January and the 12 Year Reich capitulates.

This is a relevant change. The Rastenburg area was taken by the Soviets in OTL January 27th, 1945. If it is truly last stand land, let's imagine it takes two more weeks, until February 11th. That still means the 12 year Reich capitulates nearly 3 months early, before the Soviets have touched Berlin, much of Czechoslovakia or Vienna. This may not change any boundaries of occupation zones, but you never now. It may change the distribution of how many German refugees and rocket scientists the Soviets and Westerners get.

Also, the Soviets have an opportunity, if they wish, to enter the war against Japan 3 months earlier, with potential to change details of WWII's Far East endgame.

 

[Buba]

This may not change any boundaries of occupation zones, but you never know.

Decided at Yalta?

 

[raharris1973]

Decided at Yalta?

Hmm - held 4-11 February 1945

 

[Buba]

Hmm - held 4-11 February 1945

Oh, I thought it was held sooner.
You are correct - as here it'd happen AFTER capitulation then indeed occupation zones would/should be - at least to some extent - different.

 

[ATP]

This is a relevant change. The Rastenburg area was taken by the Soviets in OTL January 27th, 1945. If it is truly last stand land, let's imagine it takes two more weeks, until February 11th. That still means the 12 year Reich capitulates nearly 3 months early, before the Soviets have touched Berlin, much of Czechoslovakia or Vienna. This may not change any boundaries of occupation zones, but you never now. It may change the distribution of how many German refugees and rocket scientists the Soviets and Westerners get.

Also, the Soviets have an opportunity, if they wish, to enter the war against Japan 3 months earlier, with potential to change details of WWII's Far East endgame.

Soviets would take more Germany/good/ and Denmark maybe.Nothing change,unless they decide start WW3 becouse of better borders to do so - then they would lost and we have better world.

 

[raharris1973]

Soviets would take more Germany/good/ and Denmark maybe.

This makes little sense to me. Rather less of Germany and none of Denmark seems a more logical outcome.

 

[WolfBear]

What if Hitler refused to evacuate his Rastenberg East Prussia headquarters, to allow his inner circle or successors to evacuate, and fed everything he could into doing a last stand that far east, a) figuring he's a dead man and his regime is over if it can't stop the Russians or turn things around by that point, if b) if (a) he doesn't want to live and the German people don't deserve to live.

The war ends three-ish months earlier and more of Germany is possibly occupied by the Western Allies, but this scenario still seems almost ASB since Hitler's Empire had its capital in Berlin. So, why not make a last stand in Berlin instead? East Prussia had much less symbolic value than Berlin had, after all.

 

[ATP]

This makes little sense to me. Rather less of Germany and none of Denmark seems a more logical outcome.

Soviets would be arleady in Germany,when Allies would still fought in France and Belgium.Less distance to cover.

 

[raharris1973]

Soviets would be arleady in Germany,when Allies would still fought in France and Belgium.Less distance to cover.

This still doesn't make any sense - Soviets only in very far east of Germany, parts that are not Germany anymore today, but Russia and Poland, that doesn't get them present-day Germany. The Americans had been at the gates of Germany since November 1944, having completely liberated France, Belgium, and Netherlands south of the Rhine. They were prepared to leap into the Rhineland and Ruhr in February 1945. The Soviets had only just swallowed Warsaw and western Poland in one big exhausting gulp in January 1945. The Americans are going to have more gas and trucks with more guys easily surrendering to them as they march and ride once Hitler's dead.

 

[raharris1973]

He dies in late January and the 12 Year Reich capitulates.

This is a relevant change. The Rastenburg area was taken by the Soviets in OTL January 27th, 1945. If it is truly last stand land, let's imagine it takes two more weeks, until February 11th. That still means the 12 year Reich capitulates nearly 3 months early, before the Soviets have touched Berlin, much of Czechoslovakia or Vienna. This may not change any boundaries of occupation zones, but you never now. It may change the distribution of how many German refugees and rocket scientists the Soviets and Westerners get.

Also, the Soviets have an opportunity, if they wish, to enter the war against Japan 3 months earlier, with potential to change details of WWII's Far East endgame.

Maybe the net border change is the western Allies get Berlin & OTL's GDR, but because the European War ends early, the Soviets get a head start on the Pacific War, so they get all Korea, including the south. Two countries, not divided?

 

[Buba]

Maybe the net border change is the western Allies get Berlin & OTL's GDR, but because the European War ends early, the Soviets get a head start on the Pacific War, so they get all Korea, including the south. Two countries, not divided?

Too many butterflies ... Hitler's death at Rastenburg affects the Yalta Conference.
Does it happen? When? Where? What decisions made there are different?


Occupation zones had been decided in 1944 already. Of course, paper will bear everything and either side may renegade on the agreement, but would Germany's capitulation in Feb/Mar lead to redrawing of lines?
But maybe Czechia is saved from Communist Yoke?

 

[ATP]

This still doesn't make any sense - Soviets only in very far east of Germany, parts that are not Germany anymore today, but Russia and Poland, that doesn't get them present-day Germany. The Americans had been at the gates of Germany since November 1944, having completely liberated France, Belgium, and Netherlands south of the Rhine. They were prepared to leap into the Rhineland and Ruhr in February 1945. The Soviets had only just swallowed Warsaw and western Poland in one big exhausting gulp in January 1945. The Americans are going to have more gas and trucks with more guys easily surrendering to them as they march and ride once Hitler's dead.

Soviets could take Warsaw and go to Oder line in 1944 September,but they decide to wait till germans destroy Warsaw Uprising,and then blow up city.
Now,it do not happen,which mean that they could be on Oder line 4 months earlier.
Which mean,they still could take more.
Maybe even part of Denmark? maybe,thanks to that,after fall of soviets Denmark would be less fucked place.

Too many butterflies ... Hitler's death at Rastenburg affects the Yalta Conference.
Does it happen? When? Where? What decisions made there are different?


Occupation zones had been decided in 1944 already. Of course, paper will bear everything and either side may renegade on the agreement, but would Germany's capitulation in Feb/Mar lead to redrawing of lines?
But maybe Czechia is saved from Communist Yoke?

Soviets would attack 4 months earlier,so no.Besides,Czech loved soviets before WW2,so it is good thing that they must lived under them.Without that,they would be as degenerated as average french.

 

[Buba]

Soviets could take Warsaw and go to Oder line in 1944 September,but they decide to wait till germans destroy Warsaw Uprising,and then blow up city.

Now,it do not happen,which mean that they could be on Oder line 4 months earlier.

Bullshit.

Also, does not matter as we are looking at I/II.1945

Soviets would attack 4 months earlier,so no

No can attack because logistics ...

 

[raharris1973]

Bullshit.

Also, does not matter as we are looking at I/II.1945


No can attack because logistics ...

ATP just likes to Soviet doom-gloom

 

[ATP]

Bullshit.

Also, does not matter as we are looking at I/II.1945


No can attack because logistics ...

They do not have problems with logistic when they taken Balkans in the same time.If they send their resources to Poland,they would be on Oder line about 1.11.1944

ATP just likes to Soviet doom-gloom

No,i simply do not underestimate them.As long as USA keep delivering Lend-Lease,they could go on new offensives month- two after last offensive finished.
They really do not cared,how many of their slaves die.That is one of reasons why germans lost - Hitler was mad genocider,but in his own twisted way he cared about healthy germans lives.