What Made You A Conservative?

Hear ye, about the manifold wonders of anarchist Catalonia!


The Anarchists were even more eager to assume governmental powers in Catalonia, where they were strong enough to overshadow the regional Catalonian government, the Generalitat. Rather than officially enter the Catalonian government, the Anarchists chose to retain the Generalitat as a legal cover; but real power shifted into the hands of the Anarchist-controlled Central Anti-Fascist Militia Committee. Bolloten indicates that for all practical purposes this Committee was the government of Catalonia under a new name: "the committee immediately became the de facto executive body in the region. Its power rested not on the shattered machinery of the state but on the revolutionary militia and police squads and upon the multitudinous committees that sprang up in the region during the first days of the Revolution. The work of the militia committee, attests Abad de Santillan, himself a member, included the establishment of revolutionary order in the rear, the creation of militia units for the front, the organization of the economy, and legislative and judicial action."[27] After a few months the Anarchists formally entered the Generalitat, mainly because the central government seemed unwilling to provide weapons to any other Catalonian organization.

It should be further noted that these Anarchist-run councils and committees were not mild-mannered minimal states, maintaining order while allowing the workers to organize themselves as they pleased. They were "modern" states, concerning themselves with the economy, education, propaganda, transportation, and virtually everything else.

The Anarchists' position in both the central government and in Catalonia slowly but surely declined after they entered into coalition governments with the other anti-Franco factions. A common pattern was for the non- Anarchists to push for some measure that the Anarchists opposed; the Anarchists would resist for a brief period; and finally, the Anarchists would agree to the original measure after changing some of the labels and minor details. By May of 1937, after a mere ten months in power, the Anarchists found themselves out-maneuvered on the national and regional levels by the Communists and other political enemies.

...

Then again, perhaps the CNT yearned so strongly for power that they were willing to sacrifice many principles for limited authority. After May 1937, they endured considerable humiliation in exchange for a paltry role in the Republican government. Were there any limits to what principles the Anarchists would sacrifice in order to be minor political players? Apparently not. Stanley Payne indicates that the CNT leadership actually tried to strike a deal with the fascists in 1945 and 1946. As Payne explains, a Falangist leader "began negotiations that summer with the new clandestine secretary general of the CNT, Jose Leiva, in Madrid. His goal was to rescue the Falange by gaining the support of opposition anarchosyndicalists for a broader, stronger, and more popular national syndicalism. Franco eventually rejected the CNT's demands, and the negotiations foundered the following year. Suppression of the CNT leadership was renewed."[32] What was the nature of the deal that the CNT sought with the Falange? "According to a report presented to Franco in May 1946, the CNT leadership offered a policy of cooperation, proposing to withdraw from the Giral Republican government- in-exile and accept three Falangists on their national committee, but in return insisted on freedom to proselytize."[33]

This was the Anarchism of the CNT: an Anarchism which not only allied with the Communist totalitarians, but attempted to strike a power- sharing deal with the fascist totalitarians six years after the end of the civil war.

...

In short, after being told that the workers now owned the means of production, the workers often took the statement literally. What is the point of owning the means of production if you can't get rich using them? But of course if some workers get rich, they are unlikely to voluntarily donate their profits to the other members of their class. This seems elementary upon reflection, but only practical experience was able to reveal this to the economic reformers of the Spanish Revolution.

Fraser explains that at a joint CNT-UGT textile union conference, "The woodworkers' union weighed in with its criticism of the state of affairs, alleging that, while small, insolvent workshops were left to struggle as best they could, the collectivization of profitable enterprises was leading to 'nothing other than the creation of two classes; the new rich and the eternal poor. We refuse the idea that there should be rich and poor collectives. And that is the real problem of collectivization.'"[43] Bolloten repeats a remark of CNT militia leader Ricardo Sanz: "'[T]hings are not going as well as they did in the early days of the [revolutionary] movement... The workers no longer think of workings long hours to help the front. They only think of working as little as possible and getting the highest possible wages.'"[44] Bolloten attributes this decline in enthusiasm to Communist repression, but it is at least as consistent with the simple observation that people often prefer improving their own lot in life to nourishing revolution.

In short, practical experience gradually revealed a basic truth of economics for which theoretical reflection would have sufficed: if the workers take over a factory, they will run it to benefit themselves. A worker-run firm is essentially identical to a capitalist firm in which the workers also happen to be the stockholders. Once they came to this realization, however dimly, the Spanish Anarchists had to either embrace capitalism as the corollary of worker control, or else denounce worker control as the corollary of capitalism. For the most part, they chose the latter course.

...

Fraser quotes Albert Perez-Baro, a civil servant and a former CNT member: "'This truly revolutionary measure [the 50 per cent profits tax] - though rarely, if ever, applied - wasn't well received by large numbers of workers, proving, unfortunately, that their understanding of the scope of collectivization was very limited. Only a minority understood that collectivization meant the return to society of what, historically, had been appropriated by the capitalists...'"[55] In other words, most workers assumed that worker control meant that the workers would actually become the true owners of their workplaces, with all the rights and privileges thereof. Only the elite realized that worker control was merely a euphemism for "social control" which in turn can only mean control by the state (or an Anarchist "council," "committee," or "union," satisfying the standard Weberian definition of the state).



...



Still, initially rural collectivization was indeed fairly "cantonalist," and it is conceivable that eventually peasant mobility would have forced local committees to relax the harshness of their regimes. The Anarchist leadership sensed this almost instinctively; soon voices urged regional and even national "federations." At a February 1937 congress, Fraser notes, "Among the major agreements reached at the congress were those to abolish all money, including local currency, and to substitute a standard ration book; to permit smallholders to remain non-collectivized as long as they did not 'interfere with the interests of the collective' from which they could expect no benefits; to organize the collectives at the district rather than local level; and to refuse the Council of Aragon the monopoly of foreign trade."[146] The self-limiting measures were clearly intended to shield the Council of Aragon from the anger of the central government and the Communists; the rest of the agreement reveals an intent to permit even more severe exploitation of the peasantry.

Anarchist historian Peirats describes a later conference in June 1937, which made the CNT's long-term intentions even plainer.



"[T]he National Committee of the CNT convened a National Meeting of Peasants with the express purpose of creating a National Federation of Peasants attached to the confederal organization. The primary objective defined in its statutes was the national integration of the agricultural economies of all the zones under cultivation, embracing both collectives and small proprietors. The Federation would accept UGT collectives and be responsible for technical consultation of all kinds through its regional branches. Small landholders, individual cultivators and collectives attached to the Federation would have full freedom to initiate agricultural development in their respective zones, but they would not be subject to national plans designed to ensure the best crop yields, the transformation or substitution of some crops for others of greater economic value and the combating of crop and livestock diseases.
"The federated cultivators were obliged to supply statistical data to the National Federation about current and projected production and whatever else necessary for general planning. The Federation was the sole distributor and exporter of produce.
"Cultivators could reserve enough of their production to meet their own consumption needs but had to observe restrictions which might be called for at a given time 'to ensure the equal right of all consumers without discrimination.' Surpluses were to be turned over to the Federation, which would pay for them 'according to local values' or as determined by a national price regulating board... The Federation would facilitate the moves of peasants from zones short of cultivable lands to zones needing workers. It would establish relations with all the economic organizations of the CNT and other groups, national or international. It created an auxiliary service to even out payments across diverse zones, national and foreign. Solidarity and mutual aid, including compensation for fires, accidents, pestilence, sickness, retirement, orphans, would be available even to individualists not participating in the collectives."[147]

In short, the CNT intended to create an all-powerful state to rule the rural population under its control; to seize all "surplus" from them and pay them token compensation as it saw fit; to relocate farmers to "zones needing workers."
Given the fact that the CNT assured the peasants' subsistence but seized their surplus, it seems unlikely that any peasant would want to move. The CNT thought about this eventuality no more than a farmer ponders whether his herd of cows wants to be led to a new field.

...

For some Anarchists, these pacts represented compromises. But then again, the CNT's initial programs were themselves a compromise between the Anarchists who wanted total power for the CNT from the outset. As Bolloten documents, from the earliest days of the revolution many Anarchists and Anarchist journals cried out for an Anarchist dictatorship. These remarks often make it clear that even the Anarchist opponents of seizing total power often agreed that once the Nationalists were defeated, the Anarchist dictatorship would swiftly follow.



"[E]ven when the Anarchosyndicalists respected the small man's property, some among them made it clear that this was only a temporary indulgence while the war lasted. 'Once the war has ended and the battle against fascism has been won,' warned a prominent Anarchosyndicalist [Tomas Cano Ruiz - B.C.] in Valencia, 'we shall suppress every form of small property and in the way that suits us. We shall intensify collectivization and socialization, and make them complete.'"[150]

Total rural collectivization, like total urban collectivization, was also an ultimate (if not immediate) Anarchist goal. "'Those peasants who are endowed with an understanding of the advantages of collectivization or with a clear revolutionary conscience and who have already begun to introduce [collective farming] should endeavor by all convincing means to prod the laggards,' said Tierra y Libertad , the mouthpiece of the FAI, which exercised strong ideological influence over the unions of the CNT. 'We cannot consent to small holdings... because private property in land always creates a bourgeois mentality, calculating and egotistical, that we wish to uproot forever. We want to reconstruct Spain materially and morally. Our revolution will be economic and ethical.'"[151] It is evident that many of the Spanish Anarchists had such a revolution in mind; a revolution which, like other modern totalitarian revolutions, would not only enslave the body, but enslave the mind. In this light, the Anarchists' much-praised focus on education seems far more malevolent.

...

The writings and words of the Spanish Anarchists, even the titles of their periodicals, proclaim their love of freedom, their desire for liberty. The classical anarchists such as Bakunin indicated that they opposed state-socialism because they rightly saw that a socialist state was inconsistent with human freedom. But what exactly did the Spanish Anarchists mean by "freedom"?

Freedom of conscience, the freedom to believe what one likes without legal penalty, was plainly not an aspect of freedom as they saw it. They ruthlessly suppressed the Catholic religion, killing many church officials, burning churches, and forbidding religious education. While Bolloten carefully noted the internal Anarchist opposition to perceived "compromises," he never indicates that Anarchist ideologues saw religious intolerance as inconsistent with their ideals. Rather, the militants declared that because the Catholic religion was false, it should be snuffed out. " CNT , the leading libertarian organ in Madrid, declared editorially: 'Catholicism must be swept away implacably. We demand not that every church be destroyed, but that no vestige of religion should remain in any of them and that the black spider of fanaticism should not be allowed to spin the viscous and dusty web in which our moral and material values have until now been caught like flies. In Spain, more than any other country, the Catholic church has been at the head of every retrograde aim, of every measure taken against the people, of every attack on liberty.'"[152] No Anarchist cited shows the slightest appreciation of the principle that ideas should be tolerated even if they are false, reactionary, or retrograde.

Similarly, no Anarchist expresses any principled objection to killing people for their political beliefs. The Anarchist critics frequently argue that killing people hurts the revolution, or frightens the simple peasants, or alienates the middle classes. They do not argue that Falangists, monarchists, and Catholic corporatists have an inalienable right to their opinion, so long as they refrain from acting upon it. The idea does not even occur to them.

Nor did the "freedom" so acclaimed by the Anarchist militants include the freedom to use alcohol, tobacco, or sometimes even coffee.

...

The theoretical problem that the Spanish Anarchists did not confront is straightforward. Once you declare unpleasant but non-violent acts to be "domination," you implicitly justify using violence to stop them. If Catholicism is "domination," then surely killing priests is a form of self-defense. If prostitution is "domination," then closing the brothels and making prostitutes take up another line of work is actually a form of liberation. If wage-labor is "domination," then forbidding a person to hire an eager worker (even a worker with the option of working for a large collective farm) actually saves the worker from victimization. What is the pattern here? By expanding the meaning of "domination" to include almost everything, you actually leave people with no freedom at all. All that remains is the Orwellian freedom to live precisely as the Anarchist council thinks right.
 
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Do you think it is good that they don't acknowledge the ongoing harm that results from their actions? I don't. Hell, there is actively slavery going on in the UAE, and concentration camps for Muslims in China. You can acknowledge that other places have problems without using it as an excuse to be awful yourself.


And I am against there being governments.

Actually, capitalism and slavery are roughly coeval.

And prison labor was often used to fill precisely the roles slaves had been used to fill previously. No time for more explanations, I have to go lift my 16 tons.
The issue being, why should it =be shoved down my throat and forced to forgive for something my family never did in the US? Let alone in as much history of my family I could go. Why do i hav to be forced to think as a white American my family enslaved others when they never did? THAT is the issue, it seems that the left ignores what is going on in these other countries because "Islam and China can do no wrong."
You do know plenty of Whites and jews were enslaved as well right? The Irish would love to have a word with you, because fi you want to know a people that have had them being slaves wiped off the map, ask them. Ask the Christians in Scandinavia and Middle east, past for the former past and present for the later.
Yet why are whites being forced to do more then acknowledge something that is not very recent, AND that from what I have gathered Not every black person in the US is a descendent of Slavery. Why should they try and get onto me when their family was never here?
The issue is it being pushed that we are racists Slavery deniers for not bowing down and begging for forgiveness
Maybe the history of violent anti-racist resistance to the Klan and union conflict against mining companies are being taught to the kids these days, but they weren't teaching it when I went to school. And I was in honors classes with an entire semester devoted to Tennessee history.
There really wasn't much Anti-Klan stuff. The FBI under a certain director was the one to really fight that down.
I have been out of highschool for...4 years now. I know people in currently. I learned about it in Honors U.S. history. i wasn't as in depth as I would have liked, but they focused more on the political and economic side of it compared to the conflicts themselves. We learned they existed and that they were horrible, but we had a lot to learn and so...we learned it quickly.
Also, Tennessee history may not have included it because it was never part of the union? I learned about the confederacy and how it fell, and all of that over what the union did mostly when talking about GA. Though I did learn about how the federal government had resent meant towards the KKK in the 1900s following Wilson, who was a supporter of it.

Fun fact about Anti-Klan stuff. In my college gov class, I learned that the Dems were full supporters of the Klan. I know this because my Prof told me when he was a kid with his democrat father(or grand father) were doing stuff for a canadite in the city, and the KKK were hosting a rally in the small town, and he turns out, knew the people involved as people he saw on a daily basis.

Watching the police murder a man slowly is pretty special.

And as Christian I don't think writing off anybody as a scumbag who it is okay to murder is okay.
You mean how the man died because of taking drugs and it just so happened the cop had placed his knee a little higher then he should have? That he would have most likely died in the car as well. Mainly he was going to die because of fentynol
 
Watching the police murder a man slowly is pretty special.

Not really?



Police brutality occurs all the time all over the world, even just as a statistical anomaly in otherwise fairly well adjusted police forces.

And as Christian I don't think writing off anybody as a scumbag who it is okay to murder is okay.

As an atheist, I couldn't give a damn.
 
The issue being, why should it =be shoved down my throat and forced to forgive for something my family never did in the US? Let alone in as much history of my family I could go. Why do i hav to be forced to think as a white American my family enslaved others when they never did? THAT is the issue, it seems that the left ignores what is going on in these other countries because "Islam and China can do no wrong."
You do know plenty of Whites and jews were enslaved as well right? The Irish would love to have a word with you, because fi you want to know a people that have had them being slaves wiped off the map, ask them. Ask the Christians in Scandinavia and Middle east, past for the former past and present for the later.
Yet why are whites being forced to do more then acknowledge something that is not very recent, AND that from what I have gathered Not every black person in the US is a descendent of Slavery. Why should they try and get onto me when their family was never here?
The issue is it being pushed that we are racists Slavery deniers for not bowing down and begging for forgiveness

There really wasn't much Anti-Klan stuff. The FBI under a certain director was the one to really fight that down.
I have been out of highschool for...4 years now. I know people in currently. I learned about it in Honors U.S. history. i wasn't as in depth as I would have liked, but they focused more on the political and economic side of it compared to the conflicts themselves. We learned they existed and that they were horrible, but we had a lot to learn and so...we learned it quickly.
Also, Tennessee history may not have included it because it was never part of the union? I learned about the confederacy and how it fell, and all of that over what the union did mostly when talking about GA. Though I did learn about how the federal government had resent meant towards the KKK in the 1900s following Wilson, who was a supporter of it.

Fun fact about Anti-Klan stuff. In my college gov class, I learned that the Dems were full supporters of the Klan. I know this because my Prof told me when he was a kid with his democrat father(or grand father) were doing stuff for a canadite in the city, and the KKK were hosting a rally in the small town, and he turns out, knew the people involved as people he saw on a daily basis.


You mean how the man died because of taking drugs and it just so happened the cop had placed his knee a little higher then he should have? That he would have most likely died in the car as well. Mainly he was going to die because of fentynol
YYou don't have to apologize for things you didn't do. And I specifically mentioned that China and Dubai (and you could easily throw in Saudi Arabia and Iran) do horrible things all the time.

Yeah, the Democrats were a profoundly racist party, and were pretty much since Jefferson founded them. The division between northern Democrats and the "Dixiecrats" got more and more extreme until the 1960s when Kennedy and Johnson supported the Civil Rights Act. Then Nixon engaged in the "Southern Strategy" of supporting racists in the south to win them over to the Republicans. Since then the Democrats have largely been the party of minority rights, which is a shame, because the party of Lincoln deserved better.
Not really?



Police brutality occurs all the time all over the world, even just as a statistical anomaly in otherwise fairly well adjusted police forces.



As an atheist, I couldn't give a damn.

I guess I'm just not okay with authoritarians murdering people.
 
And as Christian I don't think writing off anybody as a scumbag who it is okay to murder is okay.

As a Christian, I say you should heed Scripture:

Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety.

By Me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just;

Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.


6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
 
I guess I'm just not okay with authoritarians murdering people.

Me neither (with a few rare exceptions I can think of, depending on your definition of authoritarians, murder, and people). Doesn't mean I go ahead and pick a random example, enshrine it, turn him into something he never was, then riot, burn and loot for months in his name. But that's left-wing mythology (and logic) for you.
 
As a Christian, I say you should heed Scripture:
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Me neither (with a few rare exceptions I can think of, depending on your definition of authoritarians, murder, and people). Doesn't mean I go ahead and pick a random example, enshrine it, turn him into something he never was, then riot, burn and loot for months in his name. But that's left-wing mythology (and logic) for you.
What it was was one more example of the kind of violence black Americans face all the time. One that everybody got a good chance to look at, and which some people still defended. When you political opponents legitimately don't care if you are murdered, violence is inevitable.
 
I guess I'm just not okay with authoritarians murdering people.

You're going to have to deal with it. There is no utopia outside the end of Salvation History - until New Jerusalem arrives people will be around doing wicked things. Man's nature is fallen and inherently selfish. The most that can be done is to punish acts of evil as they come up, and even then we're not going to catch all of them.
 
You're going to have to deal with it. There is no utopia outside the end of Salvation History - until New Jerusalem arrives people will be around doing wicked things. Man's nature is fallen and inherently selfish.
Sure. That doesn't mean I have to be okay with it. People will do all sorts of horrible things, but I consider it an obligation to try to prevent as much harm as possible. It's what I would want done for me, after all.
 
Sure. That doesn't mean I have to be okay with it. People will do all sorts of horrible things, but I consider it an obligation to try to prevent as much harm as possible. It's what I would want done for me, after all.

You're not Christ. You'll never be able to redeem the sins of the world. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, and look with hope to the glorious day of His parousia.

42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

That was in view of the unique situation at that time:


Verse 44 is not prescribing communal living for God’s people in every situation. The Bible recognizes the right to personal property and the need for families to be distinct. Years ago, Marla and I enjoyed reading Edith Schaeffer’s book, What is a Family? [Revell]. The Schaeffers lived at L’Abri, a ministry center in the Swiss Alps where dozens of students would come to study. She has a chapter that describes the Christian home as a door with hinges and a lock. The hinges open the door to others, but the lock means that there are times when a family needs to shut out others and be together as a family.

The situation in Jerusalem was somewhat unique. Thousands of pilgrims had traveled there for the Feast of Pentecost. Many had been saved after Peter’s message, and they wanted to stay longer to get grounded in their new faith. They needed hospitality and financial help to do this. To meet these needs, the church opened their homes and their pocketbooks to help the needy. Some even sold land and donated the proceeds, although this was not required (4:37; 5:1, 4).


The chief challenge of the passage, however, clearly comes in verses 44-45. The members of the community sold their possessions, held all things jointly, and distributed to others as there was need. Ought all Christians to follow this example? The strongest reason for answering “no” here comes from setting this passage in the context of the overall New Testament witness.
While it is not hard to find examples of the community’s other described activities throughout the New Testament, the New Testament as a whole does not indicate that early Christians broadly lived in this radical communal fashion. We do not even find it in Acts outside of the original Jerusalem community. We certainly find concern for the poor and concern about economic oppression in places like Paul’s letters, James, and Revelation (and the rest of Acts), but all other indications about Christian living, whether direct or implicit, are that Christians retained their homes and basic possessions.

We can see even in the rest of the NT that this form of communal living wasn't a general rule for the early Christian community, and the Apostles, far from calling for the political overthrow of the Empire, taught to "let everyone be subject to the governing authorities" and to "Fear God. Honor the Emperor."
 
Sure. That doesn't mean I have to be okay with it. People will do all sorts of horrible things, but I consider it an obligation to try to prevent as much harm as possible. It's what I would want done for me, after all.

The problem is that most people on your side of the aisle don't seem to share your opinion about that. What happened to Floyd was wrong and inexcusable. But the proper response was to demand reforms and accountability within the minniaplosus police department. Instead it was used as an excuse to start nationwide riots that caused billions of dollars of damage, cost thousands of people their homes and livelihoods, and lead to dozens of additional deaths, along with crippling the law enforcement apparatus of dozens of other cities, leading to yet more chaos.
 
You're not Christ. You'll never be able to redeem the sins of the world. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, and look with hope to the glorious day of His parousia.



That was in view of the unique situation at that time:



We can see even in the rest of the NT that this form of communal living wasn't a general rule for the early Christian community, and the Apostles, far from calling for the political overthrow of the Empire, taught to "let everyone be subject to the governing authorities" and to "Fear God. Honor the Emperor."
I don't intend to redeem the sins of the world. I intend to try to love my neighbor and do unto others what I would want done to me.

The Roman church was also in unique circumstances. Forgive me if I don't take scriptural interpretations from randos on the internet very seriously.
The problem is that most people on your side of the aisle don't seem to share your opinion about that. What happened to Floyd was wrong and inexcusable. But the proper response was to demand reforms and accountability within the minniaplosus police department. Instead it was used as an excuse to start nationwide riots that caused billions of dollars of damage, cost thousands of people their homes and livelihoods, and lead to dozens of additional deaths, along with crippling the law enforcement apparatus of dozens of other cities, leading to yet more chaos.
Those sorts of answers have been tried and failed over and over. Eventually people are going to resist. And that's all I will say on that here.
 
The Roman church was also in unique circumstances. Forgive me if I don't take scriptural interpretations from randos on the internet very seriously.

The overwhelming thrust of Scripture is pro-government, in that it promotes the idea in that in this fallen world governments are necessary. Has it never occurred to you that that's the only passage that's used to buttress the political doctrine of anarchism? Why could that be, I wonder?
 
Those sorts of answers have been tried and failed over and over. Eventually people are going to resist. And that's all I will say on that here.

That's ridiculously wrong, there are dozens of countries around the world that manage to have far lower rates of police violence than the US, accomplished through policy, legislation, and training, rather than by fighting a "resistance" that consisted largely of looting targets and burning down one own neighborhood.
 
That's ridiculously wrong, there are dozens of countries around the world that manage to have far lower rates of police violence than the US, accomplished through policy, legislation, and training, rather than by fighting a "resistance" that consisted largely of looting targets and burning down one own neighborhood.

But then he can't have his rah-RAH-REVOLUTION!!1! that all these types inevitably devolve into droning on about.
 
But then he can't have his rah-RAH-REVOLUTION!!1! that all these types inevitably devolve into droning on about.
My friend, you have been trying to goad me into arguing with you about anarchism, despite my insistence on not doing so. If someone is "droning" on the topic, it isn't me.
The overwhelming thrust of Scripture is pro-government, in that it promotes the idea in that in this fallen world governments are necessary. Has it never occurred to you that that's the only passage that's used to buttress the political doctrine of anarchism? Why could that be, I wonder?
The bulk of scripture was written in a bronze age kingdom whose rulers are portrayed as directly chosen by God. The New Testament seems largely indifferent to politics, because Christianity isn't a political movement. His Kingdom is not of this world.
 
You know, when citing religion as a reason to support "resistance" against unjust actions by the state, I would not pick the one where the central figure of that religious was unjustly murdered and not only accepted that, but specifically forbid his disciples from resisting what they were going to do to him.
 
You know, when citing religion as a reason to support "resistance" against unjust actions by the state, I would not pick the one where the central figure of that religious was unjustly murdered and not only accepted that, but specifically forbid his disciples from resisting what they were going to do to him.
I didn't support any specific action by invocation of scripture. I supported the idea that we should actually care about murder.

I don't think Jesus' message was "crucifixion is great and more people should be subject to it". He suffered the same fate as the murderers and thieves, the "dregs". It wasn't because he didn't care about them.
 

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