Discussing Communism

You've literally stated that in this thread that Marx's economics would be universally accepted if economists hadn't accepted large amounts of bribes to refute him and that a whole school of economics was created by "the elites" specifically to attack Marx.



There are line breaks between paragraphs and sections are marked off by dividers. Each page starts with a list of quotes from various personages and the author himself about the subject they're describing.



It's by a libertarian college professor. TBF it was designed way back in the 90s and the guy is rather old, so it's not as slick as modern sites.



You know how in textbooks there are diagrams and photographs so the students can better visualise what they're reading? It's kind of like that. Since the guy behind the site is a college professor. Duh.

Still, this whole farrago is the most pathetic attempt at an argument you've made, and that's including the times you made casually-refuted claims about Lee Atwater and the Masterpiece Cakeshop case.



OMG! We've got somebody who actually believes 1920s KDP propaganda they spread to justify their actual alliance with the fascists!
OMG, we have someone who apparently doesn't know who Friedrich Ebert was!

Yeah, I can buy 1990s web design plus old guy giving that vibe, too.

And no, very obviously Marxian economics wouldn't be universally supported. Nothing gets universally supported. I also think the fact that a lot of wealthy people were willing to give money to anybody opposed to Marxist/Neomarxist thought probably made guys like Hayek a ton more prominent than they would have been otherwise.

Marx died in the 19th century. He wasn't a prophet. He was an economist with some extremely important and influential ideas. Those ideas are still relevant, even though literally over a century old academic writing is out of date. He isn't the only figure like that. Smith and Ricardo are still significant centuries later. All of there work has been challenged and criticized and resynthesized by later writers, but it is still important.
 
Then there is no capitalist economy, because violence is used to compel workers everyday.
First, violence in one place doesn't mean capitalism suddenly fails somewhere else, just like a black market in the USSR doesn't stop that place from being socialist. It just means that section of the economy where violence happens isn't capitalist, just like the section of the USSR economy that was the black market wasn't socialist. The rest of the economy kept on existing.

I'm not defending the USSR or Maoist China, so what they did isn't relevant.
I'm not sure which part this references, but if you are talking about when I mentioned that in socialism, if you protest labor conditions, the government murders you, that's not a specific allegation I made. That's a general indictment. Socialism relies on the government murdering those who refuse to give up their property and those who refuse to work at gunpoint and those that speak out. Otherwise it doesn't function. Even socialists admit this. In 1981, Heilbroner (a socialist) wrote "What is Socialism" in the Democratic Socialist magazine Dissent. Here's the key passage:

Nor can we wriggle off this hook by asserting that, among its moral commitments, socialism will choose to include the rights of individuals to their Millian liberties. For that celebration of individualism is directly opposed to the basic socialist commitment to a deliberately embraced collective moral goal. Perhaps we get a sense of the tensions that are likely to trouble socialist society when we reflect on the difficulty with which democratic bourgeois society copes with those ideas or activities that threaten the democratic process itself. But under socialism, every dissenting voice raises a threat similar to that raised under a democracy by those who preach antidemocracy. Because socialist society aspires to be a good society, all its decisions and opinions are inescapably invested with moral import. Every disagreement with them, every argument for alternative policies, every nay-saying voice therefore raises into question the moral validity of the existing government, not merely its competence in directing activities that have no particular moral significance. Dissents and disagreements thereby smack of heresy in a manner lacking from societies in which expediency and not morality rules the roost.

There cannot be free speech in a socialist country.

The fact that your employer is able to offer or deny reliable income or access to the means of production and thus compel you to work for less than your labor is worth is in fact the problem. Describing the problem does not dissolve it.
Let's change the words here:
The fact that your employer partner is able to offer or deny reliable income sex or access to the means of production their body and thus compel you to work for less than your labor is worth to earn their love is in fact the problem. Describing the problem does not dissolve it.
And I know you are about to respond with "but they don't owe you their love". Exactly my point. Consent matters.
And comparing socialism to rape is gross and weird.
But that's what it is. Taking without consent. You don't like the comparison because it is so true. Oddly, this is one of the things that turned me into a libertarian from being a default lefty. I thought socialism was good once too. But then I realized I was submissive, got really into kink, and with that comes a hyperimportance placed on consent. And this importance of consent echoed through my life.

Consent matters, and there is no consent in socialism. So I realized there was a system built on consent, called capitalism, and that's why I value it. Not because Capitalism works, not because Socialism doesn't, not because of the great public good accomplished because of Capitalism. Capitalism is good and Socialism is evil because Capitalism asks about consent and Socialism doesn't.
 
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First, violence in one place doesn't mean capitalism suddenly fails somewhere else, just like a black market in the USSR doesn't stop that place from being socialist. It just means that section of the economy where violence happens isn't capitalist, just like the section of the USSR economy that was the black market wasn't socialist. The rest of the economy kept on existing.


I'm not sure which part this references, but if you are talking about when I mentioned that in socialism, if you protest labor conditions, the government murders you, that's not a specific allegation I made. That's a general indictment. Socialism relies on the government murdering those who refuse to give up their property and those who refuse to work at gunpoint and those that speak out. Otherwise it doesn't function. Even socialists admit this. In 1981, Heilbroner (a socialist) wrote "What is Socialism" in the Democratic Socialist magazine Dissent. Here's the key passage:



There cannot be free speech in a socialist country.


Let's change the words here:

And I know you are about to respond with "but they don't owe you their love". Exactly my point. Consent matters.

But that's what it is. Taking without consent. You don't like the comparison because it is so true. Oddly, this is one of the things that turned me into a libertarian from being a default lefty. I thought socialism was good once too. But then I realized I was submissive, got really into kink, and with that comes a hyperimportance placed on consent. And this importance of consent echoed through my life. Consent matters, and there is no consent in socialism. So I realized there was a system built on consent, called capitalism, and that's why I value it. Not because Capitalism works, not because Socialism doesn't, not because of the great public good accomplished because of Capitalism. Capitalism is good and Socialism is evil because Capitalism asks about consent and Socialism doesn't.
That you are comparing ownership of a factory to the right not be sexually assaulted is substantially worse than the previous comment. You should stop now.
 
I don't mean in the sense of FDI, as much as the worst effects of exploitation and the like.

Revolution in the west was possible, it wasn't some Bolshevik fantasy.

That is the reason for the Frankfurt School and the whole business with the French postmodernists.

1926 in Britain, 1919 in Germany, possibly 1936 in France, etc...

I do think that rising living standards, and the lack of the whole pinkerton philosophy for dealing with strikers did mean that the appeal of communism in the west faded by the 1950s or so. Though this wasn't the case everywhere.

Hell there was real risk of the French communist party rising in 1946. Among other revolutions that might have been(a major subject for communist and Marxist historians).

It does us no good to deny that yes, fear of revolution in Germany and Britain and the US was very real by politicians, and the upper classes.

Maybe one of the primary things that made socialist revolution in most of the more industrially developed Europe unlikely was that they had instituted land reforms that made tenant farmers from likely supporters of social revolution into a conservative bulwark against revolution. Marxists generally viewed peasants with suspicion for that reason.
 
That you are comparing ownership of a factory to the right not be sexually assaulted is substantially worse than the previous comment. You should stop now.
You can't even refute the argument, you just don't like that it's true. Socialism is economic rape is logically equivalent to rape is theft of sex. In both cases, force is used to take what isn't yours.
 
You can't even refute the argument, you just don't like that it's true. Socialism is economic rape is logically equivalent to rape is theft of sex. In both cases, force is used to take what isn't yours.

But rape is a physical violation of a sexual nature. Is a mugging rape? The government taxing me against my will maybe as well? Maybe you'd be better served to just call socialism 'theft' or something.
 
Okay?

The better question is how will the billionaires deal with the inevitable uprising? I imagine the way they have always dealt with the working class. But nobody denies capitalism is murderous.

They will deal with it the way they are dealing with it now..by funding your orgs, by giving you sinecures in the social justice clergy and academia, by giving you unlimited sexual hedonism, and by giving you what you really want, the right to police, abuse, humiliate and socially execute the deplorables.

They dont fear you, because they they already own you.
 
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But rape is a physical violation of a sexual nature. Is a mugging rape? The government taxing me against my will maybe as well? Maybe you'd be better served to just call socialism 'theft' or something.
I mean, it's a comparison meant to highlight the importance of consent. Mugging is a muddy metaphor, as it is about a lot of things, but rape is inherently about consent, as that is the entire difference between a life changing, horrible event, and a fun time. I know this full well because I've played around with stuff like consensual non-consent, and you get paranoid about consent, much like a paratrooper gets paranoid about their parachute packing. The difference between socialism and capitalism I'm seeking to highlight is that only capitalism has consent. And that is so crucial, as it's why one is evil, and the other isn't.

Is the comparison uncomfortable? Of course, but it's intended to be. Socialism is deeply, fundamentally, and inescapably evil because of this lack of consent, but people don't realize it, and like to ignore it. But once one compares it to rape, the logic is all to easy to see, and the evil of socialism is made plain.



And yes, taxation is theft, but it doesn't really fall under this framework. First, one could argue one chooses to pay taxes both by living in a country and by working. If I don't want to pay income taxes, I can just stop working (wealth taxes are especially evil for this reason, as I don't opt into them, so don't fall into the reason I made here. Import taxes, however, definitely do, and there is definite consent with those.). So there is some argument for consent here, but nowhere near the amount of consent I would like to see (except from legal immigrants). This doesn't apply to socialism, which explicitly takes from people to start the revolution.

The other defense for taxation is that it's an evil done to prevent a greater evil (a military to stop the country being conquered, police to stop evil inside the country, etc). Both reasons are needed to fully justify taxation, which only applies to a fraction of the US budget.
 
Well I am afraid you are entirely wrong. All people have the same moral worth. Now that we have that cleared up, I think it should be clear why I don't care for capitalism.

No economic system has any regard for the "Moral worth" of people, because economics is about resource management, not the true value of the human soul or whatever.

My layman's understanding of the LtV is that the value of an item is determined by the labor that goes into it, including the costs of gathering materials and transporting it to market, and so that under idealized circumstances, the price of the item should be the price of the materials that went into it and the cost of the labor to produce it. In actuality prices differ due to fluctuations in demand, which is where marginal theory of demand comes in.

There's actually no such thing as "marginal theory of demand", I think you're thinking of marginal utility, which has an impact on demand, but so do lots of other things.

You get the LtV broadly correct, and so the problem with it should be obvious. To quote Henlien:

Of course, the Marxian definition of value is ridiculous. All the work one cares to add will not turn a mud pie into an apple tart; it remains a mud pie, value zero. By corollary, unskillful work can easily subtract value; an untalented cook can turn wholesome dough and fresh green apples, valuable already, into an inedible mess, value zero. Conversely, a great chef can fashion of those same materials a confection of greater value than a commonplace apple tart, with no more effort than an ordinary cook uses to prepare an ordinary sweet.
These kitchen illustrations demolish the Marxian theory of value -- the fallacy from which the entire magnificent fraud of communism derives -- and to illustrate the truth of the common-sense definition as measured in terms of use.

Now, in fairness Marx realized this, hence his addition of "Socially necessary labor time" as a patch to get around that little issue, but the problem of that was that it's very clearly that, an ill-defined and vague patch to try and write around a fundamentally flawed assumption, and in doing so it turned LtV from a flawed theory to a useless one, because while you could get prices based on LtV, you can't do so with Marx's version. And LtV itself is useless, as it still has the base assumption that all labor is equally valuable, and that is simply not true. All labor is not equally valuable (also, this isn't even touching on stuff like direct vs indirect labor, but let's keep it simple).

But, for the sake of argument, let's pretend that it is, somehow. LtV is still useless, because prices are still going to be set by what people will pay, not what things are "worth", because if you don't do that you're going to kneecap the entire economy. The ability to charge more than the base price, IE "extracted surplus labor" or whatever, is critical to how the economy actually works. If you build something desirable and that commands a high price, you will earn more money, and be able to use that to expand, hire more people, buy more machines, make more of the thing, and make it more available to more people, and so on. Ban people from doing that terribly extraction, you cripple the ability of the economy to actually grow and expand. Ban it most of the way, by doing something like setting a fixed cap on how much more can be charged, and that's still bad, because while the economy can grow, it's growth rate is restricted across the board (not only can you not hire as many people as you could or buy as much equipment as you could, the people that build that equipment can't sell as much of it as they could, limiting their ability to grow, and so on).

If you want to see what happens when you ignore all those points and do it anyway, lookup the results of rent control.

My smart ass answer was because, while it doesn't actually produce a model of prices, it gets to a significant point.

A theory that doesn't produce a useful model of prices is useless and wrong, no matter what else you think you learn from it.

Why should "ownership" produce wealth? The ability of someone to extract wealth from another's labor is morally bad on the face of it.

Yeah, if management and owners were nothing more than useless parasites taking away from the workers while doing nothing of worth, then you could make a moral argument against them. But that's not what happens in reality, in the overwhelming majority of cases. Company owners and leaders actually do work to advance the company's position and add value, and in addition provide other benifits (the most notable of which being they take on most of the risk, if the firm fails they stand to lose a great deal whereas the workers on the floor are largely immune to such consequences outside of needing a new job, which would happened anyway).

Now you can, and many people like you have, argue something to the effect of "But there's no way Jeff Bezos works so much he therefor deserves 200 billion dollars", to which I have several replies. First off, Bezos doesn't actually have 200 billion dollars sitting in a vault somewhere, look up how stocks work. Secondly, unfairness works both ways, Bezos doesn't deserve billions of dollars in the same way the entry level employees at amazon don't deserve $15 an hour. Third, Bezos more or less singlehandedly revolutionized online and offline commerce, logistics, data storage, and more, that may well be worth 200 billion dollars.

Now, one can argue that people at the top are still overpayed, and that might be the case. However, that's not the full story. Let's take walmart, the architypical mom and pop store crushing, union busting, surplus value extracting evil megacorporation. If you took every bit of money that's paid out to shareholders and executives and so on and gave it to the workers, it adds up to about a month's pay, which spread out over the year is like an $200. Now, I'm sure they'd love the extra money, I certainly would have when I worked there. However, I'm also sure that an extra $200 a month is not going to be a massive, life chancing quality of life enhancement for the vast majority of them, and if it was you could probably do better by just buying everyone a copy of Financial Peace instead.

Given communism's 100% failure rate thus far, I don't think it's worth the risk of turning the entire country into a mismanaged tolitarian state on the off chance we actually get Real Communism this time and everyone becomes a few hundred bucks richer. The communist argument in this case is broadly equivalent to having a car that runs well and does everything you want it to, but it has a really ugly interior, which you plan to solve by blowing up the entire car in the hopes that you can build a more functional motorcycle out of the remains.


As a final point regarding ownership, people have the moral right to do what they want with their prosperity, and private property is something that's seemingly hard coded into human nature, given how common the concept has been (even in tribal societies well below dunbar's number, where in theory a purely communal lifestyle is possible).


And when you see the consequences for actual laborers in places where they lack strong protections from violence and exploitation that is confirmed. And our entire economy is built on access to labor without those protection, so wealth can be extracted by people totally disconnected from the labor involved.

Again, this "wealth extraction" thing your on about doesn't exist, there is no such concept in actual economics. Also, our economy is by no means "built on" any such thing, it is entirely possible to have a functional economy with strong worker protection (there's just no motive for people to demand it, because at the end of the day no one cares about sweatshop labor in dirtpooristan if it means their ipods are cheaper, and aren't willing to make the sacrifices nessary to ethically source everything they use or go without the things they can't source).

Thirdly, they're still better off this way (or at least, no worse off). In some hypothetical, no access to cheap third world labor world, those people would either A) not have jobs at all, depressing their standard of living even farther, or B) would still be opressed labors in terrible or worse conditions, but from a domestic company instead of an international one. Because the problem here isn't capitalism, the problem is some countries are terrible and have terrible worker protection. Someone would exploit that, the only question is who. And if you live in a country with worker protection that weak, poor worker protection is also probably the least of your problems.

And of course, as terrible as that is, we're back to the "blowing up to car to try and cobble together a motorcycle" plan. The risk/reward ratio here is not in favor of starting a communist revolution on the off chance we can marginally improve the lives of people in some far off country somehow.
 
But rape is a physical violation of a sexual nature. Is a mugging rape? The government taxing me against my will maybe as well? Maybe you'd be better served to just call socialism 'theft' or something.

Does it still count as theft if the majority of people say they own it?

Even Totalitarian Governments are the result of the majority of their populations agreeing or “agreeing”

Hell, if the majority of your neighbors say they own your house and no one else is there aside from yourself to dispute it, who is to say they don’t own your house? Or that they don’t own you as well?

images


If Jesus were a trinity instead of a single being, he’d be able to overturn this

And before you ask, no, this isn’t a trollpost

It took awhile, but I think Robert A. Heinlein’s quotes about how even things like VOTING is in its own way a form of violence or “force”

Against an overwhelming force or number, what can you do but agree?
 
I mean, it's a comparison meant to highlight the importance of consent. Mugging is a muddy metaphor, as it is about a lot of things, but rape is inherently about consent, as that is the entire difference between a life changing, horrible event, and a fun time. I know this full well because I've played around with stuff like consensual non-consent, and you get paranoid about consent, much like a paratrooper gets paranoid about their parachute packing. The difference between socialism and capitalism I'm seeking to highlight is that only capitalism has consent. And that is so crucial, as it's why one is evil, and the other isn't.

Is the comparison uncomfortable? Of course, but it's intended to be. Socialism is deeply, fundamentally, and inescapably evil because of this lack of consent, but people don't realize it, and like to ignore it. But once one compares it to rape, the logic is all to easy to see, and the evil of socialism is made plain.



And yes, taxation is theft, but it doesn't really fall under this framework. First, one could argue one chooses to pay taxes both by living in a country and by working. If I don't want to pay income taxes, I can just stop working (wealth taxes are especially evil for this reason, as I don't opt into them, so don't fall into the reason I made here. Import taxes, however, definitely do, and there is definite consent with those.). So there is some argument for consent here, but nowhere near the amount of consent I would like to see (except from legal immigrants). This doesn't apply to socialism, which explicitly takes from people to start the revolution.

The other defense for taxation is that it's an evil done to prevent a greater evil (a military to stop the country being conquered, police to stop evil inside the country, etc). Both reasons are needed to fully justify taxation, which only applies to a fraction of the US budget.

I can understand that you draw a comparison with one of the worst things one can do to another person and something you (general you) vehemently disagree with.

Found this clip of Stephen Kotkin and I'd say it encapsulates the problems within communism pretty well:


Ie. Marxism/socialism gives you a solution (eliminate private property and free markets) for real existing problems, but ends up making things worse. It proposes freedom but ends up in tyranny via implementing the solutions. It's not an ideology for addressing inequality but about alienation. As an aside, I don't think it's a coincidence that almost all trans people on the internet seem to be far left, desiring nothing more than seeing the whole system go away. I also don't think it's a coincidence that there seems to be more and more gay people who are conservative. It's as if the more accepted a previously marginalised people become the more they have a stake in society and the smooth running thereof.

Does it still count as theft if the majority of people say they own it?

Even Totalitarian Governments are the result of the majority of their populations agreeing or “agreeing”

Hell, if the majority of your neighbors say they own your house and no one else is there aside from yourself to dispute it, who is to say they don’t own your house? Or that they don’t own you as well?

images


If Jesus were a trinity instead of a single being, he’d be able to overturn this

And before you ask, no, this isn’t a trollpost

It took awhile, but I think Robert A. Heinlein’s quotes about how even things like VOTING is in its own way a form of violence or “force”

Against an overwhelming force or number, what can you do but agree?

In practical terms yes, there is nothing you could do. I'm aware that anarchists consider other people being able to decide things that affect them via voting to be wholly illegitimate and I can understand that. I don't think it's realistic to not have some kind of management of society however.
 
In practical terms yes, there is nothing you could do. I'm aware that anarchists consider other people being able to decide things that affect them via voting to be wholly illegitimate and I can understand that. I don't think it's realistic to not have some kind of management of society however.

Fair point, in the end I don’t think you can exactly manage everything smoothly simply depending on everyone being “logical” and at the same time you have to constantly remember than governments are also made up of people and even those who are well-intentioned are not always logical

There is no perfect system of government, neither is anarchy 100% a solution, hell I think even that can eventually end and make its own new government or dominating power or group of dominating powers or some people deciding to form a government even if things are going relatively well

I think the more technology advances though, the more decentralization is possible, hell it maybe what helps break apart big companies that can only produce worthless crap that barely anyone buys or can use and isn’t even worth the money

In the end, it’s up to the individual to constantly be vigilant regardless of who is in charge, and to try and work at the small scale as well
 
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I can understand that you draw a comparison with one of the worst things one can do to another person and something you (general you) vehemently disagree with.

Found this clip of Stephen Kotkin and I'd say it encapsulates the problems within communism pretty well:


Ie. Marxism/socialism gives you a solution (eliminate private property and free markets) for real existing problems, but ends up making things worse. It proposes freedom but ends up in tyranny via implementing the solutions. It's not an ideology for addressing inequality but about alienation.


One of the key problems with socialism (defined as government ownership of the means of production) is that it tends to reduce inequality not by raising up the lower classes but by cutting off the tall poppies. And of course, the regime ends up funneling large amounts of income to Party bosses and such, so in the end you end up with an even more unaccountable rich elite than the capitalists ever were.
 
Fair point, in the end I don’t think you can exactly manage everything smoothly simply depending on everyone being “logical” and at the same time you have to constantly remember than governments are also made up of people and even those who are well-intentioned are not always logical

There is no perfect system of government, neither is anarchy 100% a solution, hell I think even that can eventually end and make its own new government or dominating power or group of dominating powers or some people deciding to form a government even if things are going relatively well

I think the more technology advances though, the more decentralization is possible, hell it maybe what helps break apart big companies that can only produce worthless crap that barely anyone buys or can use and isn’t even worth the money

In the end, it’s up to the individual to constantly be vigilant regardless of who is in charge, and to try and work at the small scale as well

If there's going to be a utopian society along the lines of anarchism or communism, I'd say it's more likely to be via technological advance. A violent revolution to that end would just end up in the opposite.
 
If there's going to be a utopian society along the lines of anarchism or communism, I'd say it's more likely to be via technological advance. A violent revolution to that end would just end up in the opposite.

I find that doubtful unless we develop a technology that completely removes resource scarcity as a factor, similar to Star Trek's replicator.
 
One of the key problems with socialism (defined as government ownership of the means of production) is that it tends to reduce inequality not by raising up the lower classes but by cutting off the tall poppies. And of course, the regime ends up funneling large amounts of income to Party bosses and such, so in the end you end up with an even more unaccountable rich elite than the capitalists ever were.

I think the current variant of Socialism decides to allow a select group of Capitalists to remain, if only to both make an illusion of a Free Market and because said Capitalists are the ones funding the politicians' campaigns and managing the methods to observe and control the populace

They're NOT gonna be put up to The Wall, if only because they're a needed weapon

If there's going to be a utopian society along the lines of anarchism or communism, I'd say it's more likely to be via technological advance. A violent revolution to that end would just end up in the opposite.

Yup, and by then, I expect humans to have become Transhuman or able to turn off the hormones and instincts that lead to rather irrational behaviour. Alongside, a removal of physical needs.

By then, the things people would be paying most for is "Dopamines" to keep themselves distracted or an opportunity to try and explore the Outer Worlds or to go off and do horribly dangerous stuff for fun
 
It proposes freedom but ends up in tyranny via implementing the solutions.
You see, this is what my point is addressing. It doesn't even propose freedom. It's proposed method of solution, even in manic commie dreamworld, is still evil. One of the ways this evil spreads is that people don't realize that socialism is morally wrong, not just incapable of working. Then they think that they've solved the problem of implementing it, not realizing that the solution is evil regardless of the methods taken to get there.

As an aside, I don't think it's a coincidence that almost all trans people on the internet seem to be far left, desiring nothing more than seeing the whole system go away. I also don't think it's a coincidence that there seems to be more and more gay people who are conservative. It's as if the more accepted a previously marginalised people become the more they have a stake in society and the smooth running thereof.
There's some definite truth to this. But it's a little more complicated than that. If you've read Conduct Unbecoming (A really good book on LGBT in the US military by the same guy who did And the Band Marched On), there was a couple passages about the ride gays got taken on by the left. They were softly promised support, and in exchange gays showed up in force for almost every lefty cause for decades. And what did we get from the left? Nearly nothing. They never publicly supported us back in a way that would help.

Law wise, we only got two laws at the federal level. The best they could do in 16 years was go from hunting down gays in the military to forcing them in the closet, and adding us to the hate crimes legislation. That's the only real pro gay legislation that was passed at the Federal level. Obama was given a supermajority, and instead of spending it on some of his most loyal supporters by getting rid of DOMA, he gave us a half assed attempt at socialized medicine, screwing up the industry even more.

Meanwhile, republican judges (First Kennedy, and now Gorsuch) wrote the majority opinions on all of the cases that actually mattered, from Lawrence, to Obergfell, to Bostock. Now LGBT rights is basically done. And the democrats barely helped at all.

Now moving to the social realm, they did almost nothing there to advance gay rights either. That was all Capitalism, by first having celebrities come out, then having them staying employed due to popularity, to corporations bending over to the mighty gay dollar. So yeah, eventually the trans community will realize that the democrats have done jack shit for them as well.

So is it any wonder that now we aren't obligated to vote for democrats because we feared the republicans, we stopped supporting them?
 
So is it any wonder that now we aren't obligated to vote for democrats because we feared the republicans, we stopped supporting them?

I think there's also how the Left is also supported by demographics that are comparatively way more homophobic at best and at worst may do religious punishments for "sodomy"
 

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